[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

[Khal Porno]

Yeah it definitely does matter what she thinks. If she thinks he's not a king, then that's her perspective - rightly or wrongly.

And examples of other people saying "it's a cliche" aren't actual examples of it being a cliche.

[Miodrag]

If Talisa doesn’t deserve to be qualified under “horribly written”, than nobody and nothing does. She’s amongst the worst creatures of the 21^st century fiction, period.

She was so poorly written that she destroyed every character she got in contact with. Her infamous remark “You’re fighting to overthrow a king and yet you have no plan for what comes after” would easily be the most absurd line in both ASOIAF and GoT, only if it wasn’t for Robb’s response: “First we have to win the war”. Really, Robb?! So, Talisa is right and you honestly don’t have a plan, because otherwise you’d... what? Tell her?! Right then and there?!

And, just remember how “convincingly” she objected Robb’s war back then; just recall that awful dialogue, in which she questioned his strategy and challenged his entire worldviews and exposed his typical “soullessness of the ruling class”; and then, after marring him, she’s all for pardoning Rickard Karstark, because it’s easier to win a war that way. Talisa, girl, concentrate a little, darling! You oppose wars? Engage fully in them? Judge them by their efficiency? Or depending on whether you’re married to a king or not?

And let’s not forget the geniality from the scene in which she tells Robb she’s pregnant: “ARE YOU MAD AT ME?” What does it mean? Why the hell would he be mad at her?! For messing up the contraception?!

There isn't a single scene with her that's at least understandable, let alone convincing. If she’s tolerable, what’s next: TV Qhorin’s fandom?!

[Winter In My Heart]

Yeah it definitely does matter what she thinks. If she thinks he's not a king, then that's her perspective - rightly or wrongly.

And examples of other people saying "it's a cliche" aren't actual examples of it being a cliche.

I wasn't saying other examples of the cliche part in particular. But about how her character is unrealistic/not well written.

Again it doesn't matter her prospective. He is still a lord/war lord and had no right to go judging him. She's not from their land and has no right to pass her judgements just because she is a 'oh so kind and noble nurse'.

[Winter In My Heart]

If Talisa doesn’t deserve to be qualified under “horribly written”, than nobody and nothing does. She’s amongst the worst creatures of the 21^st century fiction, period.

She was so poorly written that she destroyed every character she got in contact with. Her infamous remark “You’re fighting to overthrow a king and yet you have no plan for what comes after” would easily be the most absurd line in both ASOIAF and GoT, only if it wasn’t for Robb’s response: “First we have to win the war”. Really, Robb?! So, Talisa is right and you honestly don’t have a plan, because otherwise you’d... what? Tell her?! Right then and there?!

And, just remember how “convincingly” she objected Robb’s war back then; just recall that awful dialogue, in which she questioned his strategy and challenged his entire worldviews and exposed his typical “soullessness of the ruling class”; and then, after marring him, she’s all for pardoning Rickard Karstark, because it’s easier to win a war that way. Talisa, girl, concentrate a little, darling! You oppose wars? Engage fully in them? Judge them by their efficiency? Or depending on whether you’re married to a king or not?

And let’s not forget the geniality from the scene in which she tells Robb she’s pregnant: “ARE YOU MAD AT ME?” What does it mean? Why the hell would he be mad at her?! For messing up the contraception?!

There isn't a single scene with her that's at least understandable, let alone convincing. If she’s tolerable, what’s next: TV Qhorin’s fandom?!

:agree:

The Where is Winterfell and I don't think I'd marry anyone was horribly cringing.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Just want to clarify that "shotgun wedding" doesn't mean a wedding that happened fast. It's a wedding that happened because the bride got pregnant (perhaps you can stretch it to had sex). The "shotgun" comes from the image of the father of the bride forcing a marriage at the point of a shotgun to prevent the embarassment/abandonment of his daughter.

Robb and Talisa weren't a shotgun wedding, and neither were Robb and Jeyne, although that one was a lot closer to the actual definition.

[Miodrag]

:agree:

The Where is Winterfell and I don't think I'd marry anyone was horribly cringing.

I often feel sorry for show-only folks, and Talisa is among the main reasons for that. Just look what she did to Roose Bolton. In the books, Roose is the guy who scares even Arya, as we see by the end of ACOK. Literally everyone is at least uncomfortable when around him. And in the show, he’s the guy who calmly and obediently leaves the tent whenever Talisa enters it! He’s the one whom she “puts in his place” with her oh-so-modern: “Your men are not my men”. And who are her men, anyway? Who she belongs to in that moment? Of what possible entity is she part of at the beginning of her “arc”?

[Winter In My Heart]

I often feel sorry for show-only folks, and Talisa is among the main reasons for that. Just look what she did to Roose Bolton. In the books, Roose is the guy who scares even Arya, as we see by the end of ACOK. Literally everyone is at least uncomfortable when around him. And in the show, he’s the guy who calmly and obediently leaves the tent whenever Talisa enters it! He’s the one whom she “puts in his place” with her oh-so-modern: “Your men are not my men”. And who are her men, anyway? Who she belongs to in that moment? Of what possible entity is she part of at the beginning of her “arc”?

I'm quite glad I read the books after season one. Because now I have the knowledge of an alternate route the writers could have taken (but still tweaked things) and yet they plopped her into the story and pretty much ruined both Robb and Cat's arc. I agree her being there kind of messed things up with Arya and Bolton, because I would have liked to see that even though Tywin and Arya was amusing. And the fact no one ever says anything to her beyond what Bolton said is annoying. Karstark can run his mouth to the king but not call the queen to her face a foreign bitch? And Walder Frey can't say more of an insult than just throwing sexual insinuations out? Okay.

To be honest I'm positive I still wouldn't like Talisa even if I saw only the show. She's just not the type of character I've ever liked in a show or movie. She ran her mouth way to much in the first few times we saw her and had no buinsess doing so, I don't like those sort of people. Not to mention she comes across as an idiot more than a few times which just has me shaking my head more at her.

I feel sorry too. That's why I went ahead and told a friend of mine of the change once they saw Talisa and already formed their opinion of her.

[Littlefingers In The Air]

Michelle Fairley for Emmy

[Miodrag]

To be honest I'm positive I still wouldn't like Talisa even if I saw only the show. She's just not the type of character I've ever liked in a show or movie. She ran her mouth way to much in the first few times we saw her and had no buinsess doing so, I don't like those sort of people. Not to mention she comes across as an idiot more than a few times which just has me shaking my head more at her.

I feel sorry too. That's why I went ahead and told a friend of mine of the change once they saw Talisa and already formed their opinion of her.

With people who are never going to read the books, I do that all the time, because otherwise they’d quit the show. My brother and his wife, for example: somewhere around the middle of season 2, they wanted to abandon it, because nothing made sense to them any more. Only when I explained what was changed in “adaptation”, they continued watching it because they could suddenly see the big picture. But after that horrible finale of the second season, they did loose all the interest for the show. (I was so proud of my brother – and of my storytelling abilities, probably – when he, without me telling anything, saw right through House of The Undying blasphemy. Immediately after he saw the episode, he phoned me and said: “I’m positive that Dany’s scene doesn’t exist in the book”.) My brother who, like, didn’t read a single book after coming out of high-school, said he might read the novels eventually, but that he certainly isn’t going to waste any of his time on GoT. And I have a few friends who reacted similarly and quit the show at some point during the previous season. In fact, of some dozen or so show-watchers I know, only two of them are still watching.

[Winter In My Heart]

With people who are never going to read the books, I do that all the time, because otherwise they’d quit the show. My brother and his wife, for example: somewhere around the middle of season 2, they wanted to abandon it, because nothing made sense to them any more. Only when I explained what was changed in “adaptation”, they continued watching it because they could suddenly see the big picture. But after that horrible finale of the second season, they did loose all the interest for the show. (I was so proud of my brother – and of my storytelling abilities, probably – when he, without me telling anything, saw right through House of The Undying blasphemy. Immediately after he saw the episode, he phoned me and said: “I’m positive that Dany’s scene doesn’t exist in the book”.) My brother who, like, didn’t read a single book after coming out of high-school, said he might read the novels eventually, but that he certainly isn’t going to waste any of his time on GoT. And I have a few friends who reacted similarly and quit the show at some point during the previous season. In fact, of some dozen or so show-watchers I know, only two of them are still watching.

Wow really? I went ahead and told my friend because while I know she's going to read the books, she's still only on the first one. She doesn't get to watch the show right when the season comes out because they don't have hbo so it takes a bit for her to catch up, but pretty much she has the same exact views as me in hating Talisa. (We even share the same opinion the actress who plays Roslin looked much more his type lol. And who knows I still think a different actress with more charisma and more emotional/facial range might have helped.) I think I'm seriously going to contact my cousins through Facebook, they watch the show and I really doubt they will ever read the books. Since they live in a different state I don't talk to them much but I've been wanting to ask for awhile what they think of the show and characters. I'm curious to see if they actually like Robb's new love interst or if they just didn't care about her. (Being guys I'm almost positive if they do like her it'll be for shallow 'she is pretty' reasons.) heck that's the reason why one of them started watching, he woke up one day and saw the scene with Dany naked at the end of season one with the dragons and said it combined his two favorite things lol.

I'll probably tell them of changes if they don't like certain things and if they say there's things they don't like or understand that I know was something made up and not done in the books.

But yeah my friend, and then people I've talked to on other sites (that are not even slightly related to the show or books) don't like her. I casually mentioned her one time to someone and they was like 'we don't need to talk about that annoying twit' or something along those lines.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

All this discussion about Talisa has already ruined my weekend. Thanks

[Winter In My Heart]

All this discussion about Talisa has already ruined my weekend. Thanks

Yeah that's exactly how I feel every time I'm sucked into a conversation.

I'm taking it you don't like her? Or is it that you don't care but hate reading of her all the time? (Merely curious.)

[Miodrag]

Wow really?

Honestly, around me I only see people like you and other critics, who are very disappointed with GoT. I usually don't bring this up because numbers are going for HBO at the moment. They're probably going to break the record in ratings with next episode, so what's the point of talking about people I know. But yeah, people I know are actually very unhappy with the show. I just counted: there are 14 ASOIAF readers in my circle; you know, persons I'm in frequent, almost everyday contact; and among them, I believe only three of us are still watching the show. And I already described the situation in show-only section. To conclude, out of some 30 watchers of GoT I know, there's like five of us left.

Edited June 7, 2013 by NotYourSir

[Winter In My Heart]

Honestly, around me I only see people like you and other critics, who are very disappointed with GoT. I usually don't bring this up because numbers are going for HBO at the moment. They're probably going to break the record in ratings with next episode, so what's the point of talking about people I know. But yeah, people I know are actually very unhappy with the show. I just counted: there are 14 ASOIAF readers in my circle; you know, persons I'm in frequent, almost everyday contact; and among them, I believe only three of us are still watching the show. And I already described the situation in show-only section. To conclude, out of some 30 watchers of GoT I know, there's like five of us left.

Wow I can understand why they've quit, but I do try to still enjoy the show despite not liking things. I'm disappointed with some of the changes but most I just accept them that aren't so bad. Talisa is like the only one I really hate. There's others, like Tyrion whitewashing that is frustrating too though. In a way I envy my cousins because they can basically enjoy the show without knowing all the changes (though I'm sure there's things they don't like or enjoy about the show). But at the same time I feel bad knowing it could be so much better and something they could enjoy even more if things had been written better in the show. And I know what you mean, for the most part I only ever see critics who dislike her. This is the only place I've seen where people like her, and even then I've only seen a handful of them.

[TheWhiteRabbit]

Yeah that's exactly how I feel every time I'm sucked into a conversation.

I'm taking it you don't like her? Or is it that you don't care but hate reading of her all the time? (Merely curious.)

I've read all the books, but was actually indifferent. I thought she's replacing a character which I really didn't care about in the books so no big deal. But now that you all have pointed out how dumb her character really is she's starting to annoy me. The change of being a nurse and foreign doesn't bother me. But her stupid actions, dialoge and contradicting personality arc does.

However, I'm still in love with the show. My complaints are minor compared to my enjoyment. The only time I was truly pissed at the show was when they completely butchered one of my all time favorite chapters: House of the Undying.

Edited June 7, 2013 by TheWhiteRabbit

[Winter In My Heart]

I've read all the books, but was actually indifferent. I thought she's replacing a character which I really didn't care about in the books so no big deal. But now that you all have pointed out how dumb her character really is she's starting to annoy me. The change of being a nurse and foreign doesn't bother me. But her stupid actions, dialoge and contradicting personality arc does.

However, I'm still in love with the show. My complaints are minor compared to my enjoyment. The only time I was truly pissed at the show was when they completely butchered one of my all time favorite chapters: House of the Undying.

Aah yeah that's how I feel. It's not so much that they decided to replace Jeyne, but the things she does. It kind of annoys me why she had to be foreign, because I don't understand why she couldn't have just been from a bannermen that wasn't their enemy. And I wouldn't have minded if she was some woman going around wanting to help tend the wounded, I just don't like the way they went about it and how I feel the way they did it, and lack of story telling, made it unrealistic for multiple reasons.

I still like the show, it's just things like her that bother me, or HotU was a really stupid scene, or making Tyrion so much nicer than in the books is a bit frustrating, but I still pretty much like it even if there is one change I hate and others that I don't mind so much but don't particularly care for either. (The fact I really empathized with Cat in the books and how she got shafted from the change is probably a big reason why I dislike it so much. Not to mention Robb looks a bit more selfish, but again part of that I think is from bad writing as they did the change.)

Edited June 7, 2013 by Winter In My Heart

[Wunhopkuendo]

Honestly, around me I only see people like you and other critics, who are very disappointed with GoT. I usually don't bring this up because numbers are going for HBO at the moment. They're probably going to break the record in ratings with next episode, so what's the point of talking about people I know. But yeah, people I know are actually very unhappy with the show. I just counted: there are 14 ASOIAF readers in my circle; you know, persons I'm in frequent, almost everyday contact; and among them, I believe only three of us are still watching the show. And I already described the situation in show-only section. To conclude, out of some 30 watchers of GoT I know, there's like five of us left.

I really love all the anecdotal evidence for why the show sucks, and yet the viewership continues to grow to epic proportions. While viewership is obviously not a legitimate judge of quality, neither are all the so called book fans that continue to leave by the droves and yet somehow still manage to annoy those of us that enjoy the show with their incessant whining about how terrible it is.

And for all the people that hate the whole Talisa storyline, I'm am so thankful they did something, anything, other than the Westerling contrivances. That plot was silly in the books, but would have come off as horrible television.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Wunhopkuendo

[Winter In My Heart]

And for all the people that hate the whole Talisa storyline, I'm am so thankful they did something, anything, other than the Westerling contrivances. That plot was silly in the books, but would have come off as horrible television.

I don't think it would have come off horribly if they tweaked things a bit. Like showing the relationship on screen then how the books have Robb disappear and come back married. Plus they could have easily fleshed Jeyne out more to make her an interesting character. (Some people love using the fact she didn't have much of a personality.) But like I said, I wouldn't have minded the change so much if they had done a better/more realistic job with it. From what my opinion is though, and many people I've talked to, it wasn't a very well written change and lack of charm/emotional and physical range from the actress really didn't help matters in my hatred/dislike for the character.

Edited June 7, 2013 by Winter In My Heart

[Miodrag]

I really love all the anecdotal evidence for why the show sucks, and yet the viewership continues to grow to epic proportions. While viewership is obviously not a legitimate judge of quality, neither are all the so called book fans that continue to leave by the droves and yet somehow still manage to annoy those of us that enjoy the show with their incessant whining about how terrible it is.

And for all the people that hate the whole Talisa storyline, I'm am so thankful they did something, anything, other than the Westerling contrivances. That plot was silly in the books, but would have come off as horrible television.

So, you're not a fan of the books and only the HBO show satisfies you? Is that right? Since you think Jeyne's subplot is silly, you probably wasn't impressed with the Red Wedding in the novels. If a plot starts with something that silly, it's hard to buy it, I guess. If I thought Robb falling for Jeyne silly, I certainly would've be taken out of the story that's built around that particular development. So, we can conclude that, when reading, you were probably relived when RW came, because you didn't have to suffer through that storyline anymore. Good for you.

I'll even go further and take your post as a personal compliment on my account. I mean, here's GRRM, struggling to make you care for Robb and his love interest, wasting hundreds of pages in the task, and still failing completely. He didn't fool you for a second, it seems. On the other hand, I managed to provoke your emotional response with no more than few posts. Wow. Thanks.

[Wunhopkuendo]

I don't think it would have come off horribly if they tweaked things a bit. Like showing the relationship on screen then how the books have Robb disappear and come back married. Plus they could have easily fleshed Jeyne out more to make her an interesting character. (Some people love using the fact she didn't have much of a personality.) But like I said, I wouldn't have minded the change so much if they had done a better/more realistic job with it. From what my opinion is though, and many people I've talked to, it wasn't a very well written change and lack of charm/emotional and physical range from the actress really didn't help matters in my hatred/dislike for the character.

You don't think the "ahahaha you didn't know that your wife's mom was in on the betrayal the whole time! Tywin played you perfectly knowing you would fall in love with the first pretty face you saw that was around to tend to your wounds, would have sex with her, would marry her to preserve her honour, and would fall prey to a butt hurt Walder Frey!" And yet somehow Tywin still gets out maneuvered in each battle against Robb?

Yeah that would have come off really well. No amount of charisma could fix that convoluted storyline.

I agree with you that Talisa didn't have a lot of charisma, or at least wasn't written as such seeing how the actress had it a few short instances. But to say that her storyline is worse, especially for television, than the original is a bit of a short-sighted book purism in my opinion. Not everything GRRM writes is gospel. In fact, he isn't even all the great of a writer. His one trick pony is that he is willing to kill off his/your favorite characters at will. As you can see from the last two books, that isn't enough to carry an entire series. I really hope he has a few more tricks up his sleeve for the final two books.