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[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

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Again she is an idiot to say those things when the people he killed in the battle (where they met) where loyal to the enemy. Um, obviously if they engaged in real battle those people, even if they aren't good fighters, would be trying to kill him and his men. And none of the northerners are really that naive to not know the costs of war. Just look at everything that happened to Robb before and during the war. So what she was saying didn't really need to be said. It's kind of pointing out the obvious.

Like I just mentioned above, she said they're innocent, but those people his men killed where she was tending to men where going to try to kill them. They were loyal to the enemy, again it shows she's not smart. She could have said how wars are wrong, but to say them in a way that makes her look stupid I just don't get. That's just bad writing on the producers/writers part.

No I find it hilarious they made Robb fall for a bimbo. (And before you yell at me, someone can be good at something, like her being a nurse, but still be stupid.) That's all I'm gonna say about that.

Nope I said it right the first time. That bimbo is finally dead good riddance. (Obviously the way of death was brutal. So just to clear it up before you, or someone tries to jump down my throat, I'm not happy by the way she died, just that she's dead and finally gone.) And for anyone to think she actually made Robb and Cat better than their book counterpart.. Wow... Just wow.

Well speaking for myself I don't hate any other character like I do her. (Well obviously there's Joffrey but who doesn't hate him?) So I doubt there's anyone I'll hate. Dislike, I'm sure there will be, but no one will compare to that contrived/horribly written character the writers thought up.

Eta; The fact that you state her personality, it shows how contradictory she is. Being strong willed and blah, blah, blah one minute then 'caring' and 'sweet' the next shows the writers used her as a bigger plot device than Jeyne. They just threw in whatever personality they wanted for her that was needed at whatever given time despite the fact it would look odd shes all of a sudden submissive (or whatever word you want to use). They didn't even bother to give her much of a backstory either. The only thing we know is of her brother (which why did she leave him if she loved him soooo much?) and why she's against slavery. We don't really know anything beyond that. Horribly written plot device, I could have very well done without that. I'd rather see Joffrey or Theon torture on screen than that idiot (plus the actress really isn't all that good and has little range for emotions/facial expression/or anything)

* http://s20.postimg.o...gx6d98t/erm.gif *

You are practically saying that pacifist are idiots that shouldn't express their 'naive' opinion and that a person can't be strong and also sweet . Do you realize how absurd it is? I understand you don't like her, and it's ok, but that's it. You don't like her, Talisa's character didn't work for you. But the arguments you are using against her are so ridicolous that I'm starting to think that you're just a troll and I'm wasting my time.

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* http://s20.postimg.o...gx6d98t/erm.gif *

You are practically saying that pacifist are idiots that shouldn't express their 'naive' opinion and that a person can't be strong and also sweet . Do you realize how absurd it is? I understand you don't like her, and it's ok, but that's it. You don't like her, Talisa's character didn't work for you. But the arguments you are using against her are so ridicolous that I'm starting to think that you're just a troll and I'm wasting my time.

No I'm saying the way she acted the first time, and then she acts sweet, your word not mine, seems very odd. Her 'sweetness' is so fake. It makes her look like a very flip flop character that the writers just throw whatever personality on her that they need at the moment even if it makes no sense but whatever. And I didn't say pacifists can't have opinions but the ones she was expressing are idiotic to say he can't kill people, his enemy, just because they didn't know how to fight and Tywin was making them. Her logic is a mixture of failure and saying the obvious (in the case of war cost)

Edited by Winter In My Heart

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* http://s20.postimg.o...gx6d98t/erm.gif *

You are practically saying that pacifist are idiots that shouldn't express their 'naive' opinion and that a person can't be strong and also sweet . Do you realize how absurd it is? I understand you don't like her, and it's ok, but that's it. You don't like her, Talisa's character didn't work for you. But the arguments you are using against her are so ridicolous that I'm starting to think that you're just a troll and I'm wasting my time.

Well, Talisa is trying to be naive (in an artificial way) and she truly is an idiot (in a very real way). It just happens she's also a pacifist, but with her lines she'd be an idiot as a warmonger, too. "You're fighting to overthrow the king and yet you have no plan for what comes after" doesn't have to be an exclusively pacifistic stand. A Robb supporter could utter the same line, for example. But it wouldn't sound any less ridiculous in that case, either. With Talisa's lines, it would be impossible for anyone to look and sound credible, be it pacifist or something else.

Edited by NotYourSir

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Well, Talisa is trying to be naive (in an artificial way) and she truly is an idiot (in a very real way). It just happens she's also a pacifist, but with her lines she'd be an idiot as a warmonger, too. "You're fighting to overthrow the king and yet you have no plan for what comes after" doesn't have to be an exclusively pacifistic stand. A Robb supporter could utter the same line, for example. But it wouldn't sound any less ridiculous in that case, either. With Talisa's lines, it would be impossible for anyone to look and sound credible, be it pacifist or something else.

"You're fighting to overthrow the king and yet you have no plan for what comes after"

Is not ridiculous at all. It is a valid complaint about Robb's plans.

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No I'm saying the way she acted the first time, and then she acts sweet, your word not mine, seems very odd. Her 'sweetness' is so fake. It makes her look like a very flip flop character that the writers just throw whatever personality on her that they need at the moment even if it makes no sense but whatever. And I didn't say pacifists can't have opinions but the ones she was expressing are idiotic to say he can't kill people, his enemy, just because they didn't know how to fight and Tywin was making them. Her logic is a mixture of failure and saying the obvious (in the case of war cost)

Again, why is it odd if a person has different character's traits? If you don't find believable her other traits doesn't mean that she is a 'flip flop character' but that her character doesn't work for you. Oona's acting didn't succeded in making you believe her. Just keep in mind that: personal opinion =/= fact.

What you are saying it's not what Talisa said. She didn't say 'killing your enemy is wrong' but 'the war is wrong. Innocent people who had nothing to do with Joffrey's crime (or in the Lannister's eyes Robb's treason) are risking their lives and dying horrible deaths and this is unjust." She didn't see Lannisters or Starks but boys and men, people. It's called humanity not stupidity.

Well, Talisa is trying to be naive (in an artificial way) and she truly is an idiot (in a very real way).

That is your personal impression and perception. I don't see her as 'artificially naive' and stupid. What make her an idiot, her idealism? Or the fact that you don't like her and just can't look at her character objectively?

"You're fighting to overthrow the king and yet you have no plan for what comes after" doesn't have to be an exclusively pacifistic stand. A Robb supporter could utter the same line, for example. But it wouldn't sound any less ridiculous in that case, either. With Talisa's lines, it would be impossible for anyone to look and sound credible, be it pacifist or something else.

That line isn't an 'exclusively pacifistic stand', yeah, it's a logic comment in response to Robb's previous statement in their confrontation. Her words reflected ( and showed us) Robb's inner turmoil and doubts and gave him a way to face them and rationalize them. You can not like the way they chose do it , it's ok, but that is - among others- her purpose in that scene and what really matter in the end.

Edited by Teardrops

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Again, why is it odd if a person has different character's traits? If you don't find believable her other traits doesn't mean that she is a 'flip flop character' but that her character doesn't work for you. Oona's acting didn't succeded in making you believe her. Just keep in mind that: personal opinion =/= fact.

What you are saying it's not what Talisa said. She didn't say 'killing your enemy is wrong' but 'the war is wrong. Innocent people who had nothing to do with Joffrey's crime (or in the Lannister's eyes Robb's treason) are risking their lives and dying horrible deaths and this is unjust." She didn't see Lannisters or Starks but boys and men, people. It's called humanity not stupidity.

I was merely using that as one example that she said. You know, how she mentioned that the men were boys who had never fought before Tywin put swords in their hands. The fact is, what does she honestly expect to happen from telling him this? Obviously she is stupid if she thinks, and from her talk it seems she thinks this, that Robb can just give up the war and go bend the knee. Oh yes he could so do that if he was looking to be suicidal and have his head chopped off like his father. Also what else is he supposed to do? Make a stupid move and march straight to Kings Landing? Obviously he has to get through all these people if he wants revenge on Joffrey. It makes her look narrow minded in saying how its wrong, and sure she has a point that thousands of people dying is wrong, but there isn't anything that can be done about it and in all honesty she's waisting her breath because he already knows the costs of war and also there's nothing he can do about it unless he was going to bend the knee, which again would only be stupid and signing himself a death sentence. So really the only 'insight' she gave him was his lack of plan after winning the war.

Okay by your logic she's bi polar, one minute shooting off her mouth and the next making google eyes. But that matters very little in hindsight when there's other things that make her unrealistic.

The fact is, Oona has terrible acting and that terrible acting didn't help this character at all. If you look at her purely objectively you can tell she has very little range in her acting abilities. If you re watch the scenes and look closely Oona pretty much gives a blank look in almost every scene. It's like her default facial expression or something. When you compare her to the others in the show; Alfie, Charles, Lena, Peter, etc you can see she's one of the weakest there. Just compare her almost always using a blank look to Michelle's purposeful one at the RW, then it becomes quite clear she just isn't very good.

If you take into account the lack of good acting and then lack of chemistry (Robb and Cat had more chemistry season one than him and his wife! Plus look at Dany and Drogo, who had made a romance work in a short time) it's really a no brainer that this romance didn't work very well. Adding those two things on top of the fact the writers really did give her some stupid lines, then this was just a fail waiting to happen.

I haven't talked to one person off of this site that actually likes Talisa as a character. The only people I've seen who like her are a small handful that defend her on here. (And I can count them on probably just one hand.) It comes off that the people who like her are in the minority. And before you say it's just book readers, I know a girl who only read the first book, and I have family that watch it, plus I've read other people on here say how their unsullied friends didn't like the Robb/Talisa romance, etc. So if you look at it in terms of there seemingly being a lot more people who dislike her than like her, how can you say objectively the writers didn't fail with this romance? I'm quite sure they wanted this to be a 'true love' people want to get behind but how can people do that if they hate the character and dislike the romance between the two? (And how there's people who feel its contrieved) So just in terms of everything overall the writers really didn't accomplish what they were trying to.

Edited by Winter In My Heart

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Oh, good lord. You think that was a 'romance'?

I'm talking about after the initial raping (which wasn't even rape in the books.) It's quite clear Dany comes to love him. Even if it wasn't romance, they still had better on screen chemistry.

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I haven't talked to one person off of this site that actually likes Talisa as a character. The only people I've seen who like her are a small handful that defend her on here. (And I can count them on probably just one hand.) It comes off that the people who like her are in the minority. And before you say it's just book readers, I know a girl who only read the first book, and I have family that watch it, plus I've read other people on here say how their unsullied friends didn't like the Robb/Talisa romance, etc. So if you look at it in terms of there seemingly being a lot more people who dislike her than like her, how can you say objectively the writers didn't fail with this romance? I'm quite sure they wanted this to be a 'true love' people want to get behind but how can people do that if they hate the character and dislike the romance between the two? (And how there's people who feel its contrieved) So just in terms of everything overall the writers really didn't accomplish what they were trying to.

You can never make opinion into objective fact (no matter how much you keep trying), and even if you could anecdotal evidence would certainly not be the way to go about it. That's completely useless.

I'm talking about after the initial raping (which wasn't even rape in the books.) It's quite clear Dany comes to love him. Even if it wasn't romance, they still had better on screen chemistry.

In the books the first time is sweeter but he then proceeds to rape her to the point of hurting her until she learns some tricks. The show just avoided going back and forth because there wasn't time for it.

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You can never make opinion into objective fact (no matter how much you keep trying), and even if you could anecdotal evidence would certainly not be the way to go about it. That's completely useless.

In the books the first time is sweeter but he then proceeds to rape her to the point of hurting her until she learns some tricks. The show just avoided going back and forth because there wasn't time for it.

My point is just that there is seemingly more people that dislike her. I'm not saying everyone does, because obviously with any character or actor there's going to be some that hate them and others that like them. And I never said that everything single thing I said was a fact. What I was getting at is, if there's so many people who hate the character (and from everyone I've talked to there is certainly more that hate than like her) then the writers kind of failed seeing as they wanted a romance everyone would get behind. But I was still writing that post from a more objective prospective than just my hating the character way. That's what I meant by objectivity. The only thing I will in all honesty claim is that Oona is a terrible actress. (Just look at the reasons above before trying to make me state them again.)

They still had better on screen chemistry compared to Robb and Talisa whether it was actual romance. Can you honesty tell me you thought Dany and Drogo together was more bland/uninteresting to watch than the Robb and Talisa romance?

Edited by Winter In My Heart

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My point is just that there is seemingly more people that dislike her. I'm not saying everyone does, because obviously with any character or actor there's going to be some that hate them and others that like them. And I never said that everything single thing I said was a fact. What I was getting at is, if there's so many people who hate the character (and from everyone I've talked to there is certainly more that hate than like her) then the writers kind of failed seeing as they wanted a romance everyone would get behind. But I was still writing that post from a more objective prospective than just my hating the character way. That's what I meant be objectivity. The only thing I will in all honesty claim is that Oona is a terrible actress. (Just look at the reasons above before trying to make me state them again.)

They still had better on screen chemistry compared to Robb and Talisa whether it was actual romance. Can you in all honesty tell me you thought Dany and Drogo together was more bland/uninteresting to watch than the Robb and Talisa romance?

I'll say it again, anecdotal evidence is worthless. The show has many millions of viewers and neither of us have a sample that can be relied on to say what the majority thinks (I've heard plenty of people like the romance and Oona in reviews, podcasts and real life, just to show that there's anecdotal evidence in both ways). Therefor it's far better to just state one's own opinion and let it be what it is, just an opinion.

I just pointed out something that many readers actually forgot when they commented on how that romance was on the show. Dany and Drogo is the most special romance in the series this far so all other romances are less interesting than that in my view. I prefer Robb and Talisa to Tyrion and Shae on the show, to make a contrary example. Possibly more than Jon and Ygritte as well (it's up and down on the show). My point was never to state my opinion about it though, I primarily wanted to point out the fallacy of using anecdotal evidence.

Edited by Tywin's bastard

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I'll say it again, anecdotal evidence is worthless. The show has many millions of viewers and neither of us have a sample that can be relied on to say what the majority thinks (I've heard plenty of people like the romance and Oona in reviews, podcasts and real life, just to show that there's anecdotal evidence in both ways). Therefor it's far better to just state one's own opinion and let it be what it is, just an opinion.

I just pointed out something that many readers actually forgot when they commented on how that romance was on the show. Dany and Drogo is the most special romance in the series this far so all other romances are less interesting than that in my view. I prefer Robb and Talisa to Tyrion and Shae on the show, to make a contrary example. Possibly more than Jon and Ygritte as well (it's up and down on the show). My point was never to state my opinion about it though, I primarily wanted to point out the fallacy of using anecdotal evidence.

Hey I never said anything about people disliking Oona. I've read people say they like the actress and think she's really good in other things but they didn't like her in this. I just don't particularly like her. Especially when she's saying 'oh the romance is soooo much better than the books'. She's the one playing the character, obviously she's going to think that. And the fact she says that is very rude. The only thing about her I was claiming as 'fact' was she isn't a very good actress. (Which I was basing more on her actual ability and what she does on the show than my hate for the character.)

Show Shae is almost as annoying as Talisa so yeah of course both Tyrion/Shae and Robb/Talisa would be like the worst in the show. But who knows, Daario kind of is annoying me, him and Dany might fall into the least likable couples as well.

But how did I state it as an actual fact though? I used the word seemingly quite a few times, while just adding my personal experience of talking to people. The only fact I claimed was how the show writers, I would think, were trying to make a romance that everyone could get behind. With there being so much controversy, so many people saying she's horrible, people saying that their romance is bad and there isn't much chemistry between the actors, how were they very successful in their goal? Of course there's going to be people that hate it and others that like it, but when the goal is for the one romance people truly want to root for and many are hating it it seems like they (the writers/producers) fell a little short in their attempt. At least it doesn't seem like it was a success to me when I see many trashing the character/romance and I doubt that was their, the writers, goal.

When I see way more people hate it than like it, that's a fail to what D&D had likely been hoping for, IMO. (Again I'm not saying everyone hates it. But that it seems like they wanted most everyone to love the romance and that certainly isn't the case.)

Edited by Winter In My Heart

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Hey I never said anything about people disliking Oona. I've read people say they like the actress and think she's really good in other things but they didn't like her in this. I just don't particularly like her. Especially when she's saying 'oh the romance is soooo much better than the books'. She's the one playing the character, obviously she's going to think that. And the fact she says that is very rude. The only thing about her I was claiming as 'fact' was she isn't a very good actress. (Which I was basing more on her actual ability and what she does on the show than my hate for the character.)

Show Shae is almost as annoying as Talisa so yeah of course both Tyrion/Shae and Robb/Talisa would be like the worst in the show. But who knows, Daario kind of is annoying me, him and Dany might fall into the least likable couples as well.

But how did I state it as an actual fact though? I used the word seemingly quite a few times, while just adding my personal experience of talking to people. The only fact I claimed was how the show writers, I would think, were trying to make a romance that everyone could get behind. With there being so much controversy, so many people saying she's horrible, people saying that their romance is bad and there isn't much chemistry between the actors, how were they very successful in their goal? Of course there's going to be people that hate it and others that like it, but when the goal is for the one romance people truly want to root for and many are hating it it seems like they (the writers/producers) fell a little short in their attempt. At least it doesn't seem like it was a success to me when I see many trashing the character/romance and I doubt that was their, the writers, goal.

When I see way more people hate it than like it, that's a fail to what D&D had likely been hoping for, IMO. (Again I'm not saying everyone hates it. But that it seems like they wanted most everyone to love the romance and that certainly isn't the case.)

It's a fact that you think she's not a very good actress, but it's not a fact that she is. And it doesn't really matter that you said that there's seemingly more people that dislike the character since there's just no relevant evidence to base it on. Stating opinion as fact is one fallacy, using anecdotal evidence is another.

There's nothing "of course" about those two being the worst. Some people like show Shae, even though you or I don't and I think she's significantly worse than Talisa. As said I also disagree with you since I think Tyrion and Shae in the show (and maybe Jon and Ygritte) are worse than Robb and Talisa. I don't really know the reason why they changed Jayne to Talisa now that I've seen the entire arc, but I have bigger expectations on myself as a viewer than to get stuck harping on that so it's not much of a factor anymore.

Of course D&D ideally want everyone to like everything they do but I'm quite sure they expect people to have varying opinions, especially when things differ from the books since some readers are bad at letting go. George has the same problems as he for example says he doesn't understand why there are so many people that dislike Catelyn.

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It's a fact that you think she's not a very good actress, but it's not a fact that she is. And it doesn't really matter that you said that there's seemingly more people that dislike the character since there's just no relevant evidence to base it on. Stating opinion as fact is one fallacy, using anecdotal evidence is another.

There's nothing "of course" about those two being the worst. Some people like show Shae, even though you or I don't and I think she's significantly worse than Talisa. As said I also disagree with you since I think Tyrion and Shae in the show (and maybe Jon and Ygritte) are worse than Robb and Talisa. I don't really know the reason why they changed Jayne to Talisa now that I've seen the entire arc, but I have bigger expectations on myself as a viewer than to get stuck harping on that so it's not much of a factor anymore.

Of course D&D ideally want everyone to like everything they do but I'm quite sure they expect people to have varying opinions, especially when things differ from the books since some readers are bad at letting go. George has the same problems as he for example says he doesn't understand why there are so many people that dislike Catelyn.

When you look at my reasons mentioned above for Oona being a horrible actress (especially the worst in this show) I do have facts to support what your saying that it's merely an opinion. There's so many actors and actresses, in this show and others, that are much, much better than her. She has very little emotional or facial range. Just watch the scenes again and I'm sure you'll begin to notice she almost always has blank looks.

Lol Shae worse than Talisa. Yes I agree Shae is annoying, especially when they keep having scenes with her being jealous and arguing with Tyrion but worse? Lol. She's at least more realistic than Talisa as a character.

I've seen many say that it's not the fact it was a change. Mine, and some other people's, problem is that it was a bad change. If they had wrote the change better/gotten a better and more charismatic actress/made it more realistically believable (which this I do blame on bad writing), then perhaps there would be less people that hate her. So to insinuate I dislike it just because its a change is insulting. Especially since there are actual changes they did that I like.

Edited by Winter In My Heart

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When you look at my reasons mentioned above for Oona being a horrible actress (especially the worst in this show) I do have facts to support what your saying that it's merely an opinion. There's so many actors and actresses, in this show and others, that are much, much better than her. She has very little emotional or facial range. Just watch the scenes again and I'm sure you'll begin to notice she almost always has blank looks.

Lol Shae worse than Talisa. Yes I agree Shae is annoying, especially when they keep having scenes with her being jealous and arguing with Tyrion but worse? Lol. She's at least more realistic than Talisa as a character.

I've seen many say that it's not the fact it was a change. Mine, and some other people's, problem is that it was a bad change. If they had wrote the change better/gotten a better and more charismatic actress/made it more realistically believable (which this I do blame on bad writing), then perhaps there would be less people that hate her. So to insinuate I dislike it just because its a change is insulting. Especially since there are actual changes they did that I like.

Of course I expect you to have reasons for your opinion about her. It would be pretty weird to dislike something if you hadn't. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with you.

Yes, I think Shae is a worse character than Talisa and I think the actress is worse than Oona in these two respective roles.

I didn't say that you dislike her because it's a change. If I wanted to state that I'd say it outright and you're being overly defensive, especially for someone that keeps stating opinions as facts.

Edited by Tywin's bastard

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Of course I expect you to have reasons for your opinion about her. It would be pretty weird to dislike something if you hadn't. That doesn't mean that I have to agree with you.

Yes, I think Shae is a worse character than Talisa and I think the actress is worse than Oona in these two respective roles.

I didn't say that you dislike her because it's a change. If I wanted to state that I'd say it outright and you're being overly defensive, especially for someone that keeps stating opinions as facts.

I find your posts extremely hilarious. Oona not worse than (whatever the actress who plays Shae is) at least she shows more facial expressions than Oona. That in itself shows she has more acting ability. Whether you actually like the character or not, that's still true. Plus her character is still written more realistically than Talisa. But hey if you want to like an actress that has little to no range than that's your prerogative.

G ahead and keep believing that me saying Oona has no range is an opinion. I have examples (and comparisons) to why she doesn't. So whatever keep saying that if you want.

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I find your posts extremely hilarious. Oona not worse than (whatever the actress who plays Shae is) at least she shows more facial expressions than Oona. That in itself shows she has more acting ability. Whether you actually like the character or not, that's still true. Plus her character is still written more realistically than Talisa. But hey if you want to like an actress that has little to no range than that's your prerogative.

G ahead and keep believing that me saying Oona has no range is an opinion. I have examples (and comparisons) to why she doesn't. So whatever keep saying that if you want.

My prerogative is to get fed up with someone that still can't separate opinion from fact after being told about it several times. There's no way this discussion will lead anywhere until you learn that. Have a nice day.

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My prerogative is to get fed up with someone that still can't separate opinion from fact after being told about it several times. There's no way this discussion will lead anywhere until you learn that. Have a nice day.

It's ridiculous you just can't accept that there is some fact. Charles, Dinklage, Lena, Madden, Michelle. All of them are much better than Oona at acting. Sibil (I think that's Shae) has more range. And those are just people from this show. As I already stated watch Oona in the scenes again, it's quite obvious that she has blank exp<b></b>ressions at some point in almost each and every scene. I'm not saying she's the worst actress ever, but she definitely is not good. At all. There's more to an actress than a 'pretty' face. (Which I don't even think she's all that pretty) and the fact your so defensive over me talking about her acting ability is something I don't even understand. She's just not up to par with the really good GoT actors. Maybe she needs more classes. I don't know. But she has hardly any range and it's quite clear when you watch her and then watch others in the show.

But whatever. If you can't look at the comparisons and see the truth that she isn't good that's on you.

Edited by Winter In My Heart

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It's ridiculous you just can't accept that there is some fact. Charles, Dinklage, Lena, Madden, Michelle. All of them are much better than Oona at acting. Sibil (I think that's Shae) has more range. And those are just people from this show. As I already stated watch Oona in the scenes again, it's quite obvious that she has blank expressions at some point in almost each and every scene. I'm not saying she's the worst actress ever, but she definitely is not good. At all. There's more to an actress than a 'pretty' face. (Which I don't even think she's all that pretty) and the fact your so defensive over me talking about her acting ability is something I don't even understand. She's just not up to par with the really good GoT actors. Maybe she needs more classes. I don't know. But she has hardly any range and it's quite clear when you watch her and then watch others in the show.

But whatever. If you can't look at the comparisons and see the truth that she isn't good that's on you.

It's far more ridiculous that you don't grasp the concepts of objectivity and subjectivity and that you try to twist the subject to fit what you're saying.

I don't care that you think she's a horrible actress, it's your attitude that's putting me off and so I have no reason to keep discussing. I haven't even defended her, just stated that I think Sibil is worse. That's because I don't think Sibil can deliver lines naturally on a consistent basis. When it comes to range I guess Sibil has an advantage since she's done a different kind of movies before.

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It's far more ridiculous that you don't grasp the concepts of objectivity and subjectivity and that you try to twist the subject to fit what you're saying.

I don't care that you think she's a horrible actress, it's your attitude that's putting me off and so I have no reason to keep discussing. I haven't even defended her, just stated that I think Sibil is worse. That's because I don't think Sibil can deliver lines naturally on a consistent basis. When it comes to range I guess Sibil has an advantage since she's done a different kind of movies before.

When have I twisted anything? The last few posts I've been explicitly talking about her acting/acting range. I haven't twisted anything. The fact that I've said plain and simple 'Oona isn't as good as ____' insert name there and pointed out things, like her blank faces, I don't know how much more simple it can be put. If I'm defensive, it's the fact that people like you keep jumping down my throat about this character. How would you like to talk about a character you hate for days on end? Not fun, I'll tell you that.

I wasn't even thinking or mentioning line delivery, but I admit I probably shouldn't. The writers give Talisa the most ridiculous lines sometimes that it's hard to take her or the actress seriously, that's why I was just going off of the range since I'm a little biased on the speech between her and anyone in the show. I'd argue she has the worst lines in the show, which makes it hard to differentiate between bad line delivery and just bad lines she was given compared to anyone else in the show. Not that she did anything to make the bad writing better. (Though I think everyone has had their share of stupid lines so it's not solely her.)

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