[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion

[Sidonie]

The acting was so strong throughout the Red Wedding sequence. Catelyn was just excellent, and Walder was so cold and slimy - he and Roose are just perfect for their parts. And Roslin so pretty! The hall at the Twins looked just right with the gloomy dirty luxury. Just like I imagined it.

Honestly, I'm still kinda sitting around and trying to recover from the emotional punch of this episode. Wonderful.

Ugh, I couldn't agree more. I have to go to bed for work tomorrow, and I can't sleep. :(

It really pisses me off that Talisa, before her death in such a horrible manner, had to stand there and listen to Walder Frey talk about her "firm tits" in such a disrespectful way (she IS a queen, and pregnant with a prince, and had to endure that?). And then die in fear and pain knowing her baby was directly targeted.

I'm just fuming right now.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

I feel like if they started talking about Robb's will it would have tipped too many people off that a tragedy was about to happen.

[Prince of Dragonstone]

Wow....just wow.

I like that they surprised us book readers by throwing in the Talisa womb stabbing. Totally visceral and the entire scene had the brutal feel of a mass butchery, just as I imagined it while reading. Michelle Fairley acted her damn heart out tonight. The last silent moment of complete agony before her throat was cut was almost too much to look at. It felt so raw. Damn.....

[Lord Twat-Beard]

Fantastic episode! Queenscrown was great, nice to see some legit swordsmanship from Jon. Yunkai was great, that that trio kicked ass as well. Bran saying goodbye to Rickon and Gilly calling Sam a wizard gave me such feels.

The wedding was beyond horrible. So it was perfect. I have a new and improved resentment for the Freys. The belly stabbing was a horrific and brutal way to start the massacre. Arya watching Grey Wind die was a great addition to the improvement of her character. Plus the look Roose have Catelyn after she exposed his mail was chilling.

To top it off, I was light headed after the episode and stepped out to get some air. Only to see that it was raining outside. 'And now the rains...'

My heart sank again.

[Heir to the North]

I feel like all the good is now gone from the world. Well done. I have one issue. WHERE THE FUCK IS ROBB'S WILL. THATS BULLSHIT, THAT IT WAS WRITTEN OUT.

It was discussed earlier(and consider me in that crowd), that it probably took place off camera. That way, when the will comes up it will have an uplifting effect after all the North has gone through. Or just call it what it is. Building more drama for a TV show.

I thought it went pretty well, I too thought the Northmen would put up more of a fight at least something. I was saddend that Roose's turn was so quickly shown. I was still hoping for him to come out of nowhere :dunno: . My (unsullied)wife jumped like crazy when it started. Nearly out of her seat when Talisa was stabbed, and almost couldn't finish it. Her response after was the almighty "I don't think I can watch this anymore" :devil:

Alas, long live the King in the North :crying:

Great episode.

[Stark Winds]

Reading these is like listening to sports commentary. It's entertaining as well as gruesome. I can't see the episode until tomorrow, and now I know that a thousand boxes of tissues won't help me get through this episode.

[CKPS63]

And how great was David Bradley as Walder Frey in this episode?

[Tom son of Tom]

And how great was David Bradley as Walder Frey in this episode?

Absolutely. I can't picture anyone else portraying Lord Walder like he has.

[Zman1863]

And how great was David Bradley as Walder Frey in this episode?

Excellent. That moment of humor at the wedding ceremony set my unsullied sister at ease. I was chuckling at it but also really uneasy knowing what was coming.

[teej6]

Michelle Fairley was really good. So the killing of Talisa puts to rest the Jeyne Westerling pregnancy rumors I suppose.

[Timett sonof Timett is God]

And how great was David Bradley as Walder Frey in this episode?

just amazing.

[subvet]

I loved this episode even though I knew what was to be. Saddened Greywind died in a cage, that Robb had to see his wife die, and that Walder Frey got to watch it all with that nasty grin and sipping wine the dark red wine. Great writing, great acting and holy smoke, Grey Worm fights with style!!! He is rapidly developing as a favorite now....

[Rockroi]

Mawidge… Mawidge is what bwings us towgewther towday…

This was the best episode of the season and the second best episode of the series, second only to Blackwater. Here’s why:

The Wilding, the Wild and the Snow: Maybe the lost story-line this season was not so much Jon Snow and Ygritte, but the internal struggle of Jon snow… and Ygritte. Snow is, believe it or not, NOT a bog story idea. We KNOW Jon is not conflicted – he is a Northerner of the Black. He was NEVER going to go Wildling. And he was protecting his men back on the Wall.

But….Ygritte… the struggle she was facing was sound and fury. She was in love with Jon, but unlike Jon whose men are so far away, Ygritte was protecting men and women she was with and SHE KNEW Jon was still loyal to his people. But she is loyal to HER people… and to him. Jon never has THAT baggage – he never has to worry that Ygritte will wake up one day and kill everybody he cares about BECAUSE of him. Ygritte has EXACTLY that worry. She is LITERALLY sleeping with the enemy and when Jon goes over the top- an amazing scene in an episode filled with amazing scenes – SHE is the one left feeling like she just got gutted and slain on the field. She let this happened. She got her people killed. AND SHE KNEW!

Honorable mentions to Tormond Giantsbane and the warg. I liked the way Tormond acted and how he knew to salvage all this he HAD to keep Ygritte in line. That was more important than anything else. The guy playing Tormond is amazing. Add in Bran and Hodor and that scene was incredible.

Nymeria and the Hound: I know that to others the Hound and Arya is a little hackneyed and somewhat contrived, but there is something SINCERE about their interaction. Unlike the teacher-student and prisoner-jailer relationships she has had in the past, the Hound has a very simple one with her- killer to killer. And she eats it up because she GETS it and he GETS HER! And the way they interact is true and pure… and ugly and gritty.

The War in the East: While small and very much out of the way, Dany’s war in Yunka i was action-packed, real, terrible and ultimatelyt wildly successful. The fight scenes were simple, clean and stylish with just the right hint of fun . I know this was not what this episode was about, but it gave us just enough of a taste o make us wonder about the next course.

The Last Wedding: Once again, I return to my mantra of judging this series – there are about 6 or 7 scenes sprinkled through the books that if they do not work in the show, the show does not work. “Drogon…dracarys”, “Baelor”, “Blackwater.” These are the bell-weather scenes was of the show. They either work and the show succeeds or they fail and the show becomes eminently forgettable or embarrassing … “lost” if you will. Think Battlestar Gallactica after the show solved every problem with “And then Magic Happens.”

The Red Wedding was the scene that needed to work; in many ways it’s the scene that either works or the show fails.

The Red Wedding worked as a slowly building, thriller; it worked as a horror show; it worked as the end of a war; it worked as vengeance. From Robb’s utter shock to the doors closing, the song starting the build; it was Roose’s armor, the slashing of throats, Grey Wind’s horrifying end and the last gasp to try to save a dead son. As I watched it I felt the tension building MUCH like the Blackwater; I felt the end coming and feeling strangely bad for Robb and Cat (much like I did in the books). I know that Robb fucked it all up; I know he made the mistakes that brought him to his end. And I know that Cat helped him get there. But I still felt terrible for them.

And then there was the Queen. Fuck all. Was she a spy or wasn’t she? Holy fucking hell! I did not expect her to be what she was- but maybe that was the Red Herring that makes the show better than others. A small detail I they dragged out in front of me that I thought was going LEFT and it went RIGHT.

But the whole while, while I KNEW every other step, I was mesmerized. I was convinced I knew what was going to happen, but all the while I felt like there could be something else to upset the applecart. That kept me on edge and I was rewarded with the best scene in the show.

I thought that this was as good as this show has ever been.

[wolverine]

This was phenomenal. Every scene was worthwhile. It was anticlimactic knowing what would happen, but how can that be helped? The entire episode was extremely well done. Walder Frey could not have been played better.

[WenchofTarth]

What is with the complaint with Robb's will? In the books he didn't have an heir so had to make a decision on who would take over for him should he die. In the show Jeyne was pregnant which means the will wasn't necessary...

[espec22]

And who are you, the proud lord said,

that I must bow so low?

Only a cat of a different coat,

that’s all the truth I know.

In a coat of gold or a coat of red,

a lion still has claws,

And mine are long and sharp, my lord,

as long and sharp as yours.

And so he spoke, and so he spoke,

that lord of Castamere,

But now the rains weep o’er his hall,

with no one there to hear.

Yes now the rains weep o’er his hall,

and not a soul to hear

Awesome episode.

[Tom son of Tom]

wall of text

Good summary/review. I agree with everything.

[Zman1863]

What is with the complaint with Robb's will? In the books he didn't have an heir so had to make a decision on who would take over for him should he die. In the show Jeyne was pregnant which means the will wasn't necessary...

I think it would be necessary if we were being strictly realistic- he'd have to plan for a regency for instance. But that would have complicated things further to have a discussion about regency scenarios. People are upset because its a blow to Jon becoming King in the North someday, a theory I've never subscribed to anyway.

[Ampris]

1) Does anyone else’s description of the episode name the mercenaries as the Stormcrows? Dunno if that's a shout out to the book readers, or if they originally had multiple merc companies in there and just ended up cutting them from the final edit without editing the description.

2) Okay to start I am ridiculously excited to see The Twins in the opening even before any of the episode starts!

3) Hey what’s the big furry dog looking thing running in front of the line? Direwolf? What’s a direwolf?

4) Bread and salt… why didn’t they talk about it sooner? There were plenty of opportunities. And they really should have explained for non book readers the significance of guest right and all that. I bet many were wondering why they wasted time showing all that.

"You could have had both of them for all I care." Hehehe. Several Walda’s but none that seems like a “Fat Walda” to me. (Okay, I see later that Bolton is supposed to be already married… why would no one have been suspicious of that? I was under the impression northern families generally marry among themselves.) Robb’s speech was very moving though, very eloquent. “Love? That’s what the Starks of Winterfell call it, eh? Heh heh heh. Very honorable. I call it a pretty face. “ Not sure how I like Talisa being there for the RW, very curious to see how that plays out…

5) Aww, no sewers. So sad. Really wanted to see how they depicted that one.

6) First time mother or no, is anyone really stupid enough to have a new baby’s head uncovered in a frozen wasteland?

7) Love Arya and the Hound with the old man. Like her standing up to him and then knocking him out when he calls her kind.

8) Osha trolling Rickon about blood drinking was hilarious.

9) Shaggydog taking out the one Wildling FINALLY showed how big the direwolves are supposed to be. About damn time.

10) “I’m a great whistler, greatest in the land.” Am I the only one who thought that was an innuendo?

11) I giggled at the Frey girls flirting with Blackfish and his disgusted reaction.

12) I’m trying to figure out why Talisa had a very concerned expression on her face when they took Roslyn for the bedding. Was it just because she is foreign? They didn't even show the men stripping her, so I don't see what was so disturbing about the custom...

Guess Talisa saying she would name the baby Eddard if it were a boy seals her fate, and the doors closing with her still inside…

13) Robb being shot by crossbowmen doesn’t have quite the same effect as Lord Bolton stabbing him, though I’m guessing they’ll still have Bolton finish him off. (Yep, I see later that they did.) And Catelyn not killing the “special” Frey is something I don’t think they should take out. The cowering wife instead? Still an “innocent” but not quite the same; I think it’s reasonable to assume the wife knew what was going to happen but a lackwit would have been completely ignorant. Also lame that no one set Greywind free. I thought they were going to have Arya do it but instead they just surround him with crossbows while he’s caged? Cmon. Talisa bleeding out from her belly was very visually well done, HUGE emotional impact, and I am glad that she is not a spy after all. But I am sad to see her die. Okay so Bolton did finish Robb off and “the Lannisters send their regards.” I know people were upset that we didn’t get Jaime when he left Harrenhal but whatever. It's not a huge difference for me.

15) One thing that kind of pisses me off – the biggest episode of the year, actually one of the biggest of the season, and it’s only 53 minutes? Wtf is that? I was hoping they’d actually extend it over the time limit like they have done with some episodes but no, instead we get shafted 7 minutes. More even if you take out the previews and recaps before the episode even starts - the show never begins on time.

16) Oh and the preview for the finale – saw Theon damn it. I was hoping we’d finish out the season without more torture porn.

[Faint]

I have no particular preference in regard to the issue but the fact that they did not include the will does not eliminate the possibility that the Northern houses might want to crown Jon.