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[Book Spoilers] EP309 Discussion


Ran
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I won't lie, I feel like a piece of me died last night. I LOVE the Starks and even though I knew it was coming, it didn't help. The entire episode was filled with A+ acting and will be one of the most remembered episodes of any series, ever. That being said I think HBO/Martin took it a little too far with their slap in the face of Eddard/Stark fans. As if Stark fans don't have it bad enough already:

- Bran paralyzed

- Eddard dead

- Sansa married to the Imp

- Arya seeing the RW

- Robb and Cat dead

They had to add in "If it is a boy, his name will be Eddard". How about FU HBO! Was that really necessary? You give the Eddard/Stark fans some happiness for a change only to have the would-be-son-named-Eddard STABBED 10 TIMES!! I'll continue watching obviously but I really don't blame some fans for their rage right now. It was cold, very very cold.

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To the poster who was upset we didn't see the tents burning, it looks like next week's season finale picks up right where this left off, much like ep 9 of season 1

was picked up the next week seconds after Ned was beheaded. The previews for next week show Roose on the rooftop watching all the tents burning and collapsing in front of the twins.

In fact, I think we may see Greywind's head sown onto Robb's body for all to see next week.

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I think having good musicians with a sad violin added drama to the scene, so I liked that change.

I second that. The version they played was quite haunting and atmospheric. I have just rewatched the RW scene and this time it hit me harder this time because I was really tired when I watched the episode for the first time. I think they did a great job overall, i feel really sad now. Poor Catelyn, Michelle Fairley was superb. :crying:

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I won't lie, I feel like a piece of me died last night. I LOVE the Starks and even though I knew it was coming, it didn't help. The entire episode was filled with A+ acting and will be one of the most remembered episodes of any series, ever. That being said I think HBO/Martin took it a little too far with their slap in the face of Eddard/Stark fans. As if Stark fans don't have it bad enough already:

- Bran paralyzed

- Eddard dead

- Sansa married to the Imp

- Arya seeing the RW

- Robb and Cat dead

They had to add in "If it is a boy, his name will be Eddard". How about FU HBO! Was that really necessary? You give the Eddard/Stark fans some happiness for a change only to have the would-be-son-named-Eddard STABBED 10 TIMES!! I'll continue watching obviously but I really don't blame some fans for their rage right now. It was cold, very very cold.

Exactly as it was meant to be. The more vicious and cruel - the more apt, given Walder Frey obvious rage.

The more pain this scene produces, the better. It is one of the two BIG EVENTS of the book. It would have been a terrible waste had this event not shocked and horrified viewers.

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From an interview with GRRM on the RW, I just love his response!

What do you say to readers who are upset about the scene?

It depends on what they say. What can you say to someone who says they’ll never read your book again? People read books for different reasons. I respect that. Some read for comfort. And some of my former readers have said their life is hard, their mother is sick, their dog died, and they read fiction to escape. They don’t want to get hit in the mouth with something horrible. And you read that certain kind of fiction where the guy will always get the girl and the good guys win and it reaffirms to you that life is fair. We all want that at times. There’s a certain vicarious release to that. So I’m not dismissive of people who want that. But that’s not the kind of fiction I write, in most cases. It’s certainly not what Ice and Fire is. It tries to be more realistic about what life is. It has joy, but it also had pain and fear. I think the best fiction captures life in all its light and darkness. --http://insidetv.ew.com/2013/06/02/game-of-thrones-author-george-r-r-martin-why-he-wrote-the-red-wedding/

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Wow. Great episode. It affected me more than I expected. I was a doubter coming in, because I was annoyed by all the Cat, Robb, Talisa changes made in the show, but they definitely proved to me that they know what they’re doing.

Sorry for this long post, but if I don’t get this out of my system, I won’t be able to concentrate at work!

The RW:

  1. The rapprochement between Cat and Robb was great. He acknowledged that he needed her advice. Also, I liked the part where she holds him back when he wants to attack Walder Frey for insulting Talisa. I have missed this type of interaction between the 2 of them.
  2. Still not a big fan of the Jeyne/Talisa change, but I found her conversations with Robb to be endearing in this case, and I liked the amusing banter when he says that maybe he picked the wrong girl. The death of Talisa was very powerful (even for someone who didn’t like the character) and I found myself shocked at the brutality. (Incidentally, the 2 characters I hated --Ros and Talisa-- died in such a way that felt guilty for not liking them more. Well done, writers!)
  3. I liked the fact that Talisa died first, so that the focus at the end could be Cat and Robb. The relationship between mothers and their children is so critical to the series, particular the contrast between Cersei and Cat, so this scene (and the PW in the future) is really important for mothers and sons. I especially like that Robb’s last word was “Mother”. The only thing is that I would have liked some acknowledgement that they knew Sansa was married to Tyrion and a reminder at the end that Cat’s other sons are already “dead”. Cat dying while believing that 4 of her children are dead and that Tyrion betrayed her trust and gave Sansa a horrible fate is one of the saddest aspects of the entire series and I would have liked to see it emphasized here.
  4. I thought it was weird that they didn’t explain guest right and have Catelyn warn Robb about it, but I hope that will come out in Episode 10. Violation of guest right makes this a crime against the gods as well as a crime against humans. I also hope they keep the desecration of the bodies because that is another crime against the gods’ laws and shows how far gone Roose and the Freys are.
  5. Would have liked to see Grey Wind fight or warn Robb before entry into the Twins, but I liked the way they had Arya watch him be killed.
  6. Loved the interaction between Arya and Hound, but I really miss the part about her wondering if her mother would still want her after all she’s done and how she looks.
  7. Roslin was well cast and the interaction between her and Edmure was perfect!
  8. I liked that they kept the part where Cat killed an innocent person. I thought that was important for her devolution to Lady Stoneheart.
  9. Small nitpick: I thought that the Blackfish being saved by going to the bathroom was strange. Surely Walder would have kept an eye on him and waited for his return. I would have preferred him to stay at Riverrun to protect it against the Lannisters. However, I did enjoy the Frey ladies flirting with him and his reaction.
  10. Another small nitpick: They did something strange with Michelle Fairley’s makeup in the final shots—she looks several shades darker and it was distracting from her acting (which was AMAZING BTW).
  11. No music at the end was PERFECT. it left me with a sense of shock that lasted a long time.
  12. I’m really looking forward to the reactions from Sansa, Theon, and Jon to the RW. I also hope that we’ll eventually see Petyr’s reaction—he was in love with Cat for a couple of decades, after all. I’m also curious about how Cersei will react and whether that will provide any foreshadowing.

Dany:

  1. I was skeptical about the number of plots they were going to show in this episode, but they did a great job with it.
  2. I have to confess that my heart broke a little for Jorah when he realized that Dany was interested in Daario. The expression change on his face was subtle and poignant. Emilia’s acting was also good in that scene.
  3. Enjoyed the fight scene, but was looking forward to the sewers. Totally love Grey Worm! Now, I want to see Barristan fight!

Bran/Jon:

  1. First tears for the night were actually when Rickon said he wanted to protect his brother.
  2. Isaac is wonderful as Bran. I have to say that I found Bran’s recent story a little boring in the books, and Isaac reminded me why I originally liked Bran so much. He’s so brave and mature in the face of everything bad that’s happened.
  3. The Jon and wilding part was well done too. Ygritte’s expression when he rode off was so sad.
  4. Very happy to see some direwolf action!

Sam:

  1. The expression on Sam’s face when Gilly called him a wizard was just wonderful! Maybe the first compliment of his life!

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There are just too many good points to this episode to name them all. People need to understand you can't get all of the same feel and emotion from the screen as you can from a book. Any book adapted for tv or a movie generally pales in comparison.

I thought it was great, absolutely the best episode of the series. Had a hard time sleeping because I was reliving the scenes over in my head.

Thinking next week will show the Stark tents burning, Cat dumped into the river and maybe Robb/GW, but that is the one that may not happen. Also, Bran and Sam meeting at the wall may happen next week.

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My only nitpick: No face clawing from Cat :(

I ain't gonna lie...I was glad they opted to omit that. When they zoomed in on her (moments before she got turned into a pez dispenser), I was waiting for her to start raking her face. And after Talisa's tummy, and poor Grey Wind, my heart (and stomach) couldn't take any more.

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What about Brynden ? I hope he doesn't get murdered.

Also i liked Rickon's lines very much.

Brynden went out to piss on a tree so he likely escaped on the show, seeing how he wasn't even there in the book.

I ain't gonna lie...I was glad they opted to omit that. When they zoomed in on her (moments before she got turned into a pez dispenser), I was waiting for her to start raking her face. And after Talisa's tummy, and poor Grey Wind, my heart (and stomach) couldn't take any more.

I liked what they did, with Catelyn pretty much dying emotionally before getting her throat slit. Works nicely foreshadowing.

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I'm kind of hoping (hoping beyond hope really, as I know it is unlikely) that we will get Nymeria pulling Cat out of the river. So many people were heartbroken by Grey Wind's death (myself included). It would be a pleasant surprise to finally show the M.I.A. direwolf even if its without her pack.

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As a book reader, i was pretty much on the edge of my seat the entire episode. I knew exactly what was coming. It didn't disappoint either. In fact, the scene looked almost exactly how i pictured it in my head, even to how Roslin Frey looked. Once they showed her face, i was like "Robb you stupid motherfucker!" because i knew he was going to get it and i realized that he didn't even LOOK at any of Frey's daughters to begin with. You could almost see it in his eyes when he saw her like, "Man, i fucked up.". He swore an oath to Frey that he would marry one of his daughters and a oath/vow in general is sacred(particularly in those times) but the oath of a King is HUGE. Walder Frey took it as the last straw, the final spit in the face, and decided that he was going to take vengeance on the people who pissed on him for so long. Not saying what Frey did was justified, but Robb made a lot of STUPID decisions(That irony of which that most of them were decisions his Father never would've made) and either one of them could've came back to cost him his life. Final thoughts on the scene, and i know this will sound terrible, but i kinda laughed when Catelyn got her throat slit at the end. There was the long pause and then this guy comes up and then *cuts* and fade to credits.

As for the other stuff:

1. I liked the banter between Arya and The Hound, there's great chemistry between the two.

2. I'm starting to like Jon again, i like how he gutted the warg and basically told him to screw off. Things are about to go DOWN on the wall. Which makes me think of how much they've mishandled Mance, i almost forgot he existed.

3. Bran's story has finally become semi interesting again, but you know i actually think the show focusing on the wild adventures of Rickon and Osha would be more interesting than all the warg crap. But it will never happen.

This and Blackwater are the two best episodes of the show and i think the next season will have even greater moments.

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