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espec22

[book spoilers]What your non-reader friends/family thought and their predictions.

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So basically you're saying everyone who can appreciate the guts it took to do that to beloved characters, and the powerful emotions it inspires, is a psycho?

It depends what the desired end result is -- if the purpose of the RW is simply to see reasonably decent and good people slaughtered, then a person who is satisfied by it *is* pretty sick. There has to be a reason for such a tragedy and one that ultimately ends with a sense of justice prevailing.

(Incidentally, GRRM is not the first, best, or only epic fantasy writer to impart a sense of tragedy within the context of his story -- Tolkien did so 75 years ago. Gandalf's fall in Moria ring a bell? Theoden on Pelennor?)

My point was that the vast majority of HBO's GoT viewers are non-readers and therefore are not aware that, yes, it appears that the Starks will get justice, albeit imperfect and much delayed.

But will those viewers stick with the show?

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The moment that Frey closed the doors and the Rains started playing, my friend looked at me and asked: "What is happening?" I was so frightened and nervous at that point that the only thing I was able to say was a silent "I dunno". He agreed that that scene was way worse and more shocking than Ned's beheading, because three important characters were killed at a wedding, in addition he hated that they killed Grey Wind.

I feel his pain.

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My mother actually liked Walder Frey in the beginning and said: "He understands Robb" but when the doors closed she started feeling something was off: "Oh no, why did he close the doors?", and then of course, after Roose and the mail, she put her hands on her head: "Oh no, treason??? No! Really???" , followed by gasping noises and that she did not expect that at all xD

After three days, I told her that there's only one episode left now and she told me: "Eh, what's the point now? It's all over". Depressed mom is depressed!

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I don't get all these folk saying they're done. I bet most of them are full of it. They cut Ned's head off and the audience continued to grow.

Of course the whole idea is that you should be screaming "NOOOOOoooooooo" and be angry and upset that the chance to avenge Ned would appear to be gone, as I was, but at the same time I was also really pleased that GRRM had hit me with a curve ball (again) and that my expectations were being challenged, and I could finally look forward to reading a book that didn't finish with the line "and they all lived happily ever after"

This reminds me of years ago when Titanic was released and TFI Friday showed a "supposed" clip of the alternative ending which had been made for the US market where they turned the ship in time and managed to avoid the iceberg:-

"Iceberg dead ahead"

"It's ok we just missed it"

"yeahhhhhhhhh"

You don't have to be a psychopath to be happy that your not being fed the same old predictable rubbish over and over and over again.

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It depends what the desired end result is -- if the purpose of the RW is simply to see reasonably decent and good people slaughtered, then a person who is satisfied by it *is* pretty sick. There has to be a reason for such a tragedy and one that ultimately ends with a sense of justice prevailing.

(Incidentally, GRRM is not the first, best, or only epic fantasy writer to impart a sense of tragedy within the context of his story -- Tolkien did so 75 years ago. Gandalf's fall in Moria ring a bell? Theoden on Pelennor?)

My point was that the vast majority of HBO's GoT viewers are non-readers and therefore are not aware that, yes, it appears that the Starks will get justice, albeit imperfect and much delayed.

But will those viewers stick with the show?

I hope all of them stick with the show, seeing how if the theories are right Mhysa has two different meanings, and one is going to give us a very satisfying round of justice.

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My friend knew that Robb was going to die, but he didn't imagine it would be so soon and so... savage. He said "you should have seen my face…", and he's especially shocked about the Talisa stabbing - he can't get it out of his head, he thought it was too strong. He also liked the moment in which Catelyn’s throat is cut, he said it was a powerful image.

He thinks Arya is kind of a jinx: everytime she gets near a relative, they die. Also, he predicted that she is going to go across the Narrow Sea, learn a few things and come back to Westeros being a badass killer to cause some trouble. He swears and swears he didn’t read spoilers, so I am stunned with the accuracy of the prediction!!! :bowdown:

He HATES Jon Snow for leaving Ygritte. He loved the couple and actually expected them to be together forever and ever: he says Jon is a jerk and *insults insults* and he’ll never forgive him for not having taken Ygritte and run away with her to be happy ever after. I told him Ygritte is a wildling who wants to kill Jon’s brothers, but he argues that she loves him and saved his life and protected him against her own people, and he doesn’t care about anything else. :dunno: :lol:

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If there wasn't an audience for this sort of gritty realism (even in a fantasy genre) then networks like "Investigation Discovery" wouldn't exist.

I don't think it's the same actually. Those kind of shows are like CSI with the 'only' difference that those are stories about real people. You can feel for the victim, get moved by those stories but you already know that it won't end well. You know what you are watching. GOT, instead, catches a lot of people off guard and some doesn't like it.

This 'gritty realism' is just not eveyone's cup of tea and I really can't blame who want to stop watching.

That's the thing. When you read the newspaper you don't see those people. Besides, you never knew them, much less have invested time or even projected emotions on them. Some people are just too uncomfortable witnessing suffering first hand, even if it's fiction and what they are witnessing is a TV show. I personally don't share that, but I can see where some come from.

Yeah. He was really, REALLY invested in Robb's arc. I almost feel guility maybe I should have warned him. :ohwell:

Anyway I talked today with the other one in my group of viewers who want to quit and for him it's not a matter of being unable to accept a story that is realistic ( «it is realistic only when it suits him» ) for him what GRRM did it's more a matter of « trying to be unpredictable at any cost and lacking ideas for doing it so let's kill Tom, Dick and Harry».

He never expected , after Ned's death, a typical journey for Robb and saw potential in his character and his plot « the author really could have done something different with him.. alive » but what really made him decide to stop watching is what happen next ( after the episode he read the summeries of the last two books) « It's like a very long and repetitive essay on "how to ruining your own life, the art of backstabbing, 100 reasons why being honorable sucks" What's the point? I'm not going to sit there watching people I really don't care about hurting themselves and wandering around waiting for winter to finally come».

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I don't think it's the same actually. Those kind of shows are like CSI with the 'only' difference that those are stories about real people. You can feel for the victim, get moved by those stories but you already know that it won't end well. You know what you are watching. GOT, instead, catches a lot of people off guard and some doesn't like it.

This 'gritty realism' is just not eveyone's cup of tea and I really can't blame who want to stop watching.

Yeah. He was really, REALLY invested in Robb's arc. I almost feel guility maybe I should have warned him. :ohwell:

Anyway I talked today with the other one in my group of viewers who want to quit and for him it's not a matter of being unable to accept a story that is realistic ( «it is realistic only when it suits him» ) for him what GRRM did it's more a matter of « trying to be unpredictable at any cost and lacking ideas for doing it so let's kill Tom, Dick and Harry».

He never expected , after Ned's death, a typical journey for Robb and saw potential in his character and his plot « the author really could have done something different with him.. alive » but what really made him decide to stop watching is what happen next ( after the episode he read the summeries of the last two books) « It's like a very long and repetitive essay on "how to ruining your own life, the art of backstabbing, 100 reasons why being honorable sucks" What's the point? I'm not going to sit there watching people I really don't care about hurting themselves and wandering around waiting for winter to finally come».

Very good points and well expressed. My husband and I are going to cancel HBO tomorrow or Saturday. We only got it so I could watch GoT, after we received the boxed first season as a Christmas gift and watched the second season on Netflix. But now I've lost interest. Maybe some day, once they've finished the last season after all books were written, I'm going to look up the very last episode to see if Jon, Daenerys, Arya and Sansa made it to the end. But until then, I'll turn to other things. Besides: Summer is coming! For us, right here, now.

And I can't wait to see some of the actors in different new projects, like Kit Harington in Pompeii and Richard Madden in Cinderella. That's what I'm taking from this show, a fondness of many actors I hadn't known previously.

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Anyway I talked today with the other one in my group of viewers who want to quit and for him it's not a matter of being unable to accept a story that is realistic ( «it is realistic only when it suits him» ) for him what GRRM did it's more a matter of « trying to be unpredictable at any cost and lacking ideas for doing it so let's kill Tom, Dick and Harry».

He never expected , after Ned's death, a typical journey for Robb and saw potential in his character and his plot « the author really could have done something different with him.. alive » but what really made him decide to stop watching is what happen next ( after the episode he read the summeries of the last two books) « It's like a very long and repetitive essay on "how to ruining your own life, the art of backstabbing, 100 reasons why being honorable sucks" What's the point? I'm not going to sit there watching people I really don't care about hurting themselves and wandering around waiting for winter to finally come».

I think there is some validity to this point. I don't think it's a coincidence that killing off all those characters in ASOS, plus the departures of other characters that end conflicts the audience had grown to enjoy, was followed by what many think are the two weakest books in the series. It's like a fireworks show where you blast off everything in the first 30 seconds. Amazing to watch, but not much reason to stick around.

I think they need Stoneheart to appear this week, and for the BwB to be given a more prominent role next season. Some mounting sense that the Red Wedding was a very bad thing, and that justice in some form, is stalking everyone involved with it. The RW should be seen as a shadow looming over everything else in the south, with more references and worries about the consequences expressed by the characters. And the sooner they can get to White Harbor and "The North Remembers", the better it will be.

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Very good points and well expressed. My husband and I are going to cancel HBO tomorrow or Saturday. We only got it so I could watch GoT, after we received the boxed first season as a Christmas gift and watched the second season on Netflix. But now I've lost interest. Maybe some day, once they've finished the last season after all books were written, I'm going to look up the very last episode to see if Jon, Daenerys, Arya and Sansa made it to the end. But until then, I'll turn to other things.

I was going to ask if you guys have read the books, but since you're posting in this thread, I assume you know most of the spoilers anyway. Do things like Lady Stoneheart, or what happens in the rest of A Storm of Swords, not really matter to you?

I mean, I could understand quitting after next season -- I really could. But there is definitely some justice meted out next season.

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People who say that the Red Wedding 'came out of nowhere' are guilty of not paying attention to the story. It has been clear for a whole season that Roose Bolton and Walder Frey are not to be trusted and are likely candidates to betray Robb. Couple that with Tywin's letters and it is an entirely logical plot twist.

It seem however, that people don't want the protagonists to be punished for their mistakes. If that's the case, they should find another program with fluffy clouds, pink unicorns and egg sandwiches.

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I think there is some validity to this point. I don't think it's a coincidence that killing off all those characters in ASOS, plus the departures of other characters that end conflicts the audience had grown to enjoy, was followed by what many think are the two weakest books in the series. It's like a fireworks show where you blast off everything in the first 30 seconds. Amazing to watch, but not much reason to stick around.

I disagree. Firstly the rest of ASOS, which will correspond roughly to Season 4, will be excellent. After that, there is a lull but the direction in which the plot heads is excellent. The main problem with books 4 and 5 is not the direction the plot takes - it's the execution. Those books have so much filler and glacial plot progression. Instead of condensing long travelogues, Martin decides to tell them in full, and his books suffer as a result.

All in all, the Red Wedding was a fantastic plot twist and works well in the context of the story. Season 4 will be excellent and seasons after that can be great too if they cut the weak material out and focus on the stronger elements.

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My family doesn't talk to me now. They are all in shock and can't understand why i was smiling all the time. My brother thinks that we are goping to jump 5 or more years to see Bran or Rickon get revenge.

My Answer.

Winter is coming.

...OMG me too!!! except my response....just wait (re Cat) its just a flesh wound :)......................................................................

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Anyone who gets so upset that they have to take to Twitter to proclaim their boycott in caps, clearly is too invested in the show to not come back.

I'm pretty sure 99% of those people will return next season. If not the next episode.

Agreed. Hopefully they will all come to their senses, I just tried to talk another co-worker down. He was saying "Man there isn't even a point anymore, f this show I'm not watching it anymore." I assured him there are good things coming, pointed out the man with the Merman pin on his chest who died at the wedding, and told him that dude was important.

Hope they don't cut it out next season.

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Regarding the Jon thing: I am reading a lot of tuits and reviews from people who agree with my friend that Jon is a total jerk and who don't understand why he did such a thing. I never felt that way when I read it: I thought the love story was very special and quite tragic, and I didn't think Jon made nothing wrong. Have any of your non-reader friends commented on the subject?

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GRRM is an amazing writer when you think about it. To be able to stir so much emotion over a single fictonal event, for multiple years. Good job George.

I absolutely agree. The books obviously and now the TV show are simply great works of art. Art is supposed to move you and illicit an emotional reaction. Clearly, they have more than succeeded.

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It was great watching with my wife (non-book reader, but I'm leaning on her) especially after she saw my reactions while reading the book--anyway, when Rains starts playing and Cat has that look of fear/dread, my wife picked up on it & asked," why is she so freaked out.?" My response was, " this isn't an appropriate song for a wedding."--sound of her breath sucking in, "oh no..."

Then I though how disturbing it was that I enjoyed her going through the same emotions I had when I read the book.

She went to bed depressed that night.

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