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[book spoilers]What your non-reader friends/family thought and their predictions.

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Regarding the Jon thing: I am reading a lot of tuits and reviews from people who agree with my friend that Jon is a total jerk and who don't understand why he did such a thing. I never felt that way when I read it: I thought the love story was very special and quite tragic, and I didn't think Jon made nothing wrong. Have any of your non-reader friends commented on the subject?

Yeah my friend thinks he's a jerk for leaving her too.

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My boyfriend was actually more upset about Jon leaving Ygritte than the Red Wedding! I was almost appalled, but kind of expecting it since he had no investment in the storyline (and when it all comes down to it ... Robb does unfortunately put himself in the position to be betrayed so horrifically.) With that said ... my coworkers who watch the show are not in the "I'm never watching again!" camp. They were shocked, but in a good way, as they can appreciate a show that deviates from expectations. They're very excited to find out what happens next week and both talked about reading the books after this season concludes.

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I gave my friend that I upset in my video (in my sig) a Robb Stark doll today. She almost cried but was so happy and hugging him. Hah :D She didn't like my joke though about cutting off his head and putting a wolf doll head on it....

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I gave my friend that I upset in my video (in my sig) a Robb Stark doll today. She almost cried but was so happy and hugging him. Hah :D She didn't like my joke though about cutting off his head and putting a wolf doll head on it....

:lol: that video is hilarious. Your new avi >. I love Jonny Sack.

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I taped my friend. Quite humorous, because earlier in the season she begged me to tell me if Robb Stark died and threatened to google him if I didn't tell her. So I said he did but not for a really long time so she wouldn't see anything coming. Yeah, she almost killed me :P I think she'll keep watching, but I don't know. She was seriously done after she thought Bran and Rickon died to the point where I actually had to tell her they weren't dead so she'd keep watching. lol.

http://youtu.be/GH6mEvhTEt0

This was your video?! I watched this already! Amazing, thanks for that! Tell your friend it gets better.

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------

Tirilei, on Today, 08:09 AM, said:

Very good points and well expressed. My husband and I are going to cancel HBO tomorrow or Saturday. We only got it so I could watch GoT, after we received the boxed first season as a Christmas gift and watched the second season on Netflix. But now I've lost interest. Maybe some day, once they've finished the last season after all books were written, I'm going to look up the very last episode to see if Jon, Daenerys, Arya and Sansa made it to the end. But until then, I'll turn to other things.

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I was going to ask if you guys have read the books, but since you're posting in this thread, I assume you know most of the spoilers anyway. Do things like Lady Stoneheart, or what happens in the rest of A Storm of Swords, not really matter to you?

I mean, I could understand quitting after next season -- I really could. But there is definitely some justice meted out next season.

No, we haven't. My husband isn't really watching it/paying attention anyway, just I am. And as I have explained to many here, I don't mind reading so-called "spoilers" and sometimes even seek them out or read up on a character on the Wiki pages. That's why I came to this website. Like reading up on a play before going to a theater or to the opera. So, I just watch the show, but sometimes with a bit of info on what's coming.

This wedding massacre wasn't so much "emotional" in my view, as some have called it here. To me, it's more that this "everyone dies" is getting old. "Like a French movie" my husband would say. And that's true, French movies have a tendency towards having everyone die in the end. And I really wanted to see Arya meet up with her mother and brother, even if just briefly, if they had to be torn apart again. That didn't happen, so that was disappointing. I wanted to see the happy surprise in Caitlin and Robb, seeing the long lost daughter and sister alive, seeing that she made it all the way to them and largely by herself. But the way it was written, it was like one of those bad dreams where you are running and running to catch something or make it somewhere, and when you're almost there it slips out of your hands again.

I also know that Ygritte will die soon, and she is another one of my favorite characters, so I don't care to see that either. I would have loved to see her introduced to and encounter people with Jon, maybe try on that silk dress they talked about, and then for both of them to find their unique place together, as a "warrior couple" between the two worlds they come from, defying the expectations and rules of both worlds. An inter-cultural relationship, something I can relate to.

Now I'll just follow up on the actors. Some of them also have very interesting personal stories.

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Yeah my friend thinks he's a jerk for leaving her too.

I just didn't understand why he still had to ride away. Only Ygritte and the big red-haired guy (what's his name again?) were still alive, so why did he run? He could have asked Ygritte if she was coming with him or not. Also, didn't he recognize those wolves? And, to back up to the beginning of that scene, why did he even allow the warg guy to push him into a corner like that? I mean, those wildlings appreciate individualism, so the big guy would have probably understood if Jon had responded to the other guy's pressuring him about killing the old man by telling him something like "F u... I do what I want and won't take orders from you!" So that was a bit lame.

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I just didn't understand why he still had to ride away. Only Ygritte and the big red-haired guy (what's his name again?) were still alive, so why did he run? He could have asked Ygritte if she was coming with him or not. Also, didn't he recognize those wolves? And, to back up to the beginning of that scene, why did he even allow the warg guy to push him into a corner like that? I mean, those wildlings appreciate individualism, so the big guy would have probably understood if Jon had responded to the other guy's pressuring him about killing the old man by telling him something like "F u... I do what I want and won't take orders from you!" So that was a bit lame.

That's how it happened in the books. He tried that, they accused him of being a crow and Ygritte being a crow's wife or something, Ygritte says "FUQ DAT NOISE" and cuts the guys throat, and the wolves attack. It's much more chaotic in the books and is way better imo. BUT oh well.

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I just didn't understand why he still had to ride away. Only Ygritte and the big red-haired guy (what's his name again?) were still alive, so why did he run? He could have asked Ygritte if she was coming with him or not. Also, didn't he recognize those wolves? And, to back up to the beginning of that scene, why did he even allow the warg guy to push him into a corner like that? I mean, those wildlings appreciate individualism, so the big guy would have probably understood if Jon had responded to the other guy's pressuring him about killing the old man by telling him something like "F u... I do what I want and won't take orders from you!" So that was a bit lame.

I think it never crossed his mind that Ygritte would give up her people and her way of life to follow him. Ygritte would never, in the same way he would never leave the Wall or betray the Watch: so he understands this loyalty and wouldn't even ask her to do it. That's the way I understood it when I read the books, more or less.

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No, we haven't. My husband isn't really watching it/paying attention anyway, just I am. And as I have explained to many here, I don't mind reading so-called "spoilers" and sometimes even seek them out or read up on a character on the Wiki pages. That's why I came to this website. Like reading up on a play before going to a theater or to the opera. So, I just watch the show, but sometimes with a bit of info on what's coming.

This wedding massacre wasn't so much "emotional" in my view, as some have called it here.

Well therein lies your problem. If you read up on spoilers you are subverting the art of storytelling, so clearly you're not going to feel the same emotional pull as others. The whole point of the Red Wedding is that you believe Robb will go on to be successful if he can just get through this period of things falling apart. As it's a story you expect him to make it. The emotional side comes from the devastation of having your expectations shattered.

I don't have much sympathy for people who purposefully look up spoilers and then criticise the storytelling. If Martin wanted people to find out that way, he would have posted the plot summary for the entire series back in 1996.

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My friend goes on and on about how Jon and Ygritte should have fled to Essos haha

But, when I asked a general prediction on the ending of the series, he said "Jon will go to Daenerys snd become his friend. She will give him a dragon, and together they will conquer Westeros. She will be in the Iron Throne and he will end up being the Lord of all the North."

I think that's most how he would like it to be, but still, I like it haha

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I'm surprised so many people are being hard on Jon. He's a loyal crow, we all know it, show watcher and book reader alike. Doesn't matter that he loves her, he's been raised by a Stark and a Tully - honor and duty hold more weight with him than love.

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My friend is convinced that Dany's setting off for Westeros by the Season finale. Sigh.

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Well therein lies your problem. If you read up on spoilers you are subverting the art of storytelling, so clearly you're not going to feel the same emotional pull as others. The whole point of the Red Wedding is that you believe Robb will go on to be successful if he can just get through this period of things falling apart. As it's a story you expect him to make it. The emotional side comes from the devastation of having your expectations shattered.

I don't have much sympathy for people who purposefully look up spoilers and then criticise the storytelling. If Martin wanted people to find out that way, he would have posted the plot summary for the entire series back in 1996.

Then you don't pay attention to what is being criticized. I'm not criticizing the art of story telling or the effectiveness of the story in shocking the viewer. I criticize that this (shock effect) is this particular writer's goal and where he takes his story. He does it very successfully and effectively. But I don't like the "destination" as you might call it, so I tend to get off the train and walk along side as far as I may choose. Maybe that's about staying in control. Yes, I think that has a lot to do with it. If you don't like where something is going, you refuse to give up control. Then you remain cauteous and refuse to allow the story to take control of your emotions. Besides: Not everyone gets as emotional about a tv series as some of the people's friends here that are described as crying, etc. I can cry over tv programs too, but am more likely to do so when I see someone overcoming suffering or showing selflessness and sacrifice in the face of adversity. Suffering animals make me cry right away, that's unbearable. But not some bloody massacre or fighting scenes.

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PS: Was trying to think of a scene in GoT that made this non-reader cry. One that came to mind was where Catlyn told Talysa about her feelings towards Jon when he was a sick child, how she first prayed for his death, then hated herself for it and prayed for his health. A scene like that, her admitting her emotional dilemma and weakness, and then thinking of a child that wasn't loved by a mother and still grew up to be honest and kind, I found that touching.

I also found Theon's reflection upon his mistakes touching, though not as much.

The death of the wolf in the kennel was probably the most touching part of the massacre for me.

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I gave my friend that I upset in my video (in my sig) a Robb Stark doll today. She almost cried but was so happy and hugging him. Hah :D She didn't like my joke though about cutting off his head and putting a wolf doll head on it....

Does she know she's all over the internet? She's in a video with over 7 million views...

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I'm surprised so many people are being hard on Jon. He's a loyal crow, we all know it, show watcher and book reader alike. Doesn't matter that he loves her, he's been raised by a Stark and a Tully - honor and duty hold more weight with him than love.

Jon has absolutely not been raised a Tully. He's Ned Stark through and through.

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Then you don't pay attention to what is being criticized. I'm not criticizing the art of story telling or the effectiveness of the story in shocking the viewer. I criticize that this (shock effect) is this particular writer's goal and where he takes his story. He does it very successfully and effectively. But I don't like the "destination" as you might call it, so I tend to get off the train and walk along side as far as I may choose. Maybe that's about staying in control. Yes, I think that has a lot to do with it. If you don't like where something is going, you refuse to give up control. Then you remain cauteous and refuse to allow the story to take control of your emotions. Besides: Not everyone gets as emotional about a tv series as some of the people's friends here that are described as crying, etc. I can cry over tv programs too, but am more likely to do so when I see someone overcoming suffering or showing selflessness and sacrifice in the face of adversity. Suffering animals make me cry right away, that's unbearable. But not some bloody massacre or fighting scenes.

Well I guess we each take different things from the series. Personally, I love putting the pieces together and trying to figure out what is going to happen e.g. taking in the clues from Roose Bolton's handing over of Jaime and Lord Frey's comments etc. To have the plot revealed, to me, takes away a huge part of what the story is about. And I believe GRRM would feel the same way.

You're welcome to read ahead and get spoiled, but in such a case you're not experiencing the series as it was meant to be experienced. And as a result it is no doubt less entertaining.

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If you're someone who watches tv because it's an escape, because the plotlines never go outside of your comfort zone, or because you need a main character to support wholeheartedly and be assured they will always win; Game of Thrones is not made for you.

In fact, you should have realized this after good old Ned lost his head, that really sets the tone for the whole series to follow.

However, if you are someone who enjoys a story where the lines between good and evil are not always clear, with characters you may hate at first then slowly begin to love, with unpredictable plots twists despite hints being dropped constantly for the perceptive (this series is made for rewatching/rereading for all the information to be found between the lines); Game of Thrones was made for you.

For me, it's not about the destination, I'm just enjoying the ride.

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Unfortunately, most of my Unsullied family do not have the appreciation for a complicated story like I do. It's almost impossible to start a conversation with them about their thoughts because they still can't even identify characters that have been around forever. My mother in particular says she has a hard time distinguishing all the "old bearded men" from one another, lol.

Their reactions were pretty generic as a result. My mother knew something was wrong as soon as the doors closed, she didn't really like Catelynn and thought Robb made some terrible choices, but didn't think they deserved such brutality. No one saw it coming until it was too late.

She knows Arya well and feels bad for her because she just can't catch a break. She still talks about "A man" who was one of her favorite characters (Jaqen). She actually wants to rewatch the Red Wedding, which I think is a first.

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