Reviewing the Rains of Castamere

[Honourable Ser]

Werthead,

Perhaps for you, perhaps for me, perhaps for others, but given how people have talked about that chapter for the last 13 years, do you really think it was really laid on too thick for the vast majority... ? And is it really dilution to go from "OMFG" to "Holy hell, he really did it!" A slightly different feeling, perhaps, but I don't think one can objectively state one is superior to the other.

I think someone on our Youtube video put it succinctly: what's a scarier thought: crossing the street and BOOM hit by a truck... or being buried alive?

I'd say most would say the latter. The idea of that long agony alone with yourself, knowing something awful is happening and not being able to do something about it, is certainly more frightening than a random act striking from the blue that you've no foreboding of.

But to watch I know which is the more shocking.

[TalalOfDorne]

They did a great job in the RW scene in general.

Aside from the small issues already mentioned, I didnt like the fact that Catelyn was happy and having a good time. Yes I saw an early post talking about giving the audience a sense of security, but I still think it was out of character (Though I shouldnt be surprised given how they dealt with her character in this season).

Anyway, I mostly blame this on the fact that the show made the letter that reached Robb and Cat about Winterfell say that Bran and Rickon were missing instead of dead. And also on the fact that news of Sansas wedding never reached them apparently.

I think that it affected her in one of the last scenes as well. When she said to Walder Frey "Please, He is my son. My First son." . Now I know this is a very minor detail to worry about, but to me I think it would have been better if it were: "My Last son." It would add to show how desperate she is to at least keep one of her children alive.

Overall, great episode.

[King's Ruin]

To be fair, there was a growing sense of apprehension which started from when the doors were closed and the band started playing The Bear & The Maiden Fair, a good five mins before Cat clocked Bolton's chainmail. I think other readers of the books - as I did - felt there wasn't enough 'build up' but when my cousin spoke to me about it - and he hasn't read the books - he was very keen to express that growing apprehension he felt from quite early on in the scene.

Also, NotYourSir, I agree Talisa is probably by far the worst thing about the TV adaptation. I wish she'd never existed but I am actually relieved that they brought her along to the wedding and MURKED her straight away so we don't have to put up with any more of her vain, pretentious drivel. Kudos to the actor who plays John Snow - I like him, he's authentic and hard and Northern. But Robb was never up to the challenge, never truly a king my heart, try as he might. At least the RW in the TV show has rocked the world of GoT in a similar way to the RW in aSoS which rocked the world of ASOIAF. They got that much right and the major shock reaction in the news, across the net, twitter and on this forum is testimony to that. World shattering, predictable-storyline-defying game changer? Box ticked. GRRM should be proud.

[EdricBaratheon]

Michael McElhatton's Roose Botlon was fantastic in this episode. That little smirk he gave to Catelyn just sent shivers down my spine. He has been brilliant throughout the 3rd series in the episodes that he has featured in.

Whilst I never entirely agreed with the presence of Talisa at the Wedding, it certainly helped to add to the emotion of the episode, as well as crushing the false hope that Robb's son would avenge him once he came of age (mainly for the HBO Viewers who haven't read the books).

The Red Wedding was always going to be a hard task to adapt to television, with so much going on in a state of chaos. I thought it was handled well, and it played with the auidences emotions. I watched it with my flat, as well as an additional 20 odd friends (all haven't read the books as well), and they were absolutely shocked when Roose's chain mail was reveled and when the knife was plunged into Talisa.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

Wow some harsh criticism of this episode by the un-unsullied, or sullied, or purists, etc etc.

I thought it was done beautifully by the actors, Richard Madden was at his best as was Michelle Fairley. To see Robb only react to his wife a d unborn forsaking his own well-being, ignoring everything except her and then standing and going for his mother almost like he had given up. And then Cat after Robb is stabbed by the leech a hole, completely giving up and slashing the throat of the woman (should have been a dude though, kind of cheapens Cat a little, but anyway). I think it was done this way to crush the viewing audience way more than GRRM crushed us 13 years ago. We only knew Robb through Cat, Bran, Jon, Eddard, Sansa, and Arya. He wasn't even a POV character, but the show created this love story, hell the only true love story it's seen other than Cat and Ned. It was moving, and I think pulled off beautifully.

[Alia of the knife]

“The young man or woman writing today has forgotten the problems of the human heart in conflict with itself which alone can make good writing because only that is worth writing about, worth the agony and the sweat" - William Faulkner

One of Martins favorite writers, and given the complicated nature of man, both good and bad, as well as the complexities of the Human heart, those who interpret his work as utterly dark without purpose, or brutal for the sake of brutalities sake are going to be in for a rude awakening when he gives us that bittersweet ending.

While D&D may be in a pissing match to win the crown for the kings of misery porn and "playing with emotions," I don't think thats Martins goal, I think his goal is to tell a good story, a story that reflects the balance of grief, pain, and joy, but also the classic tragedy of the death of honor and what that world looks like, as well as hearts in conflict.

Besides, the trophy for misery porn goes to "The Killing" one of the most unrelentingly dark, depressing works out there, and while it is good stuff, it does take me days to get over it.

[Cas Stark]

“The young man or woman writing today has forgotten the problems of the human heart in conflict with itself which alone can make good writing because only that is worth writing about, worth the agony and the sweat" - William Faulkner

One of Martins favorite writers, and given the complicated nature of man, both good and bad, as well as the complexities of the Human heart, those who interpret his work as utterly dark without purpose, or brutal for the sake of brutalities sake are going to be in for a rude awakening when he gives us that bittersweet ending.

While D&D may be in a pissing match to win the crown for the kings of misery porn and "playing with emotions," I don't think thats Martins goal, I think his goal is to tell a good story, a story that reflects the balance of grief, pain, and joy, but also the classic tragedy of the death of honor and what that world looks like, as well as hearts in conflict.

Besides, the trophy for misery porn goes to "The Killing" one of the most unrelentingly dark, depressing works out there, and while it is good stuff, it does take me days to get over it.

I can't resist. Did Faulkner ever write anything with a happy ending, even semi happy? You'd be hard pressed to find an ending that wasn't brutally tragic...so, that doesn't make me feel too good about GRRM's idea of "bittersweet" if WF is his role model.

[Alia of the knife]

I can't resist. Did Faulkner ever write anything with a happy ending, even semi happy? You'd be hard pressed to find an ending that wasn't brutally tragic...so, that doesn't make me feel too good about GRRM's idea of "bittersweet" if WF is his role model.

Personally, I find his writing beautiful, because it captures the essence of the truth of struggle and the process of living, rather than just existing. Another one of his quotes is, paraphrasing, "if I had the choice between pain and to feel nothing, I would choose pain," which again is the point.

Martin references not just other writers, but history as well given that the RW is supposedly based upon the Black Dinner, so what he's trying to convey is a little more than just a race for shock value, and as far as the bittersweet ending, I think it's likely a balanced ending with resolution, and yes, likely more key character deaths, rather than anyone riding off into the sunset.

Again, I don't know what they were trying to convey in TV Robb bringing a pregnant-with-the-Crown Prince Talisa to the wedding- the Freys brutality, Robbs stupidity, or shock value.

I'm going for the latter.

And I confess I've been cynical about D&D since S1 when all they could talk about then was the RW not to mention HBO as whole though they have been much more consistent.

“I believe that man will not merely endure. He will prevail. He is immortal, not because he alone among creatures has an inexhaustible voice, but because he has a soul, a spirit capable of compassion and sacrifice and endurance.” - William Faulkner

[Cas Stark]

Personally, I find his writing beautiful, because it captures the essence of the truth of struggle and the process of living, rather than just existing. Another one of his quotes is, paraphrasing, "if I had the choice between pain and to feel nothing, I would choose pain," which again is the point.

Martin references not just other writers, but history as well given that the RW is supposedly based upon the Black Dinner, so what he's trying to convey is a little more than just a race for shock value, and as far as the bittersweet ending, I think it's likely a balanced ending with resolution, and yes, likely more key character deaths, rather than anyone riding off into the sunset.

Again, I don't know what they were trying to convey in TV Robb bringing a pregnant-with-the-Crown Prince Talisa to the wedding- the Freys brutality, Robbs stupidity, or shock value.

I'm going for the latter.

And I confess I've been cynical about D&D since S1 when all they could talk about then was the RW not to mention HBO as whole though they have been much more consistent.

Shock value. D&D are no GRRM let alone William Faulkner. They seem to see the series as a number of set pieces as opposed to a real narrative or a story about people and their motivations, so it seems like they pick these set pieces which they find most relevant/shocking/interesting and then they turn the dial up to 11 by adding in naked women, more violence, rank sentimentality or whatever comes to mind.

I think this vision of GOT as a variety of events strung together is part of what causes the randomness that at least I feel in some of the episodes in terms of how they make their selections. Like, why were Sam and Gilly idoing in Episode 9? And why in the hell was this episode SHORT?! Something hardly anyone has noticed or talked about.

[Alia of the knife]

Shock value. D&D are no GRRM let alone William Faulkner. They seem to see the series as a number of set pieces as opposed to a real narrative or a story about people and their motivations, so it seems like they pick these set pieces which they find most relevant/shocking/interesting and then they turn the dial up to 11 by adding in naked women, more violence, rank sentimentality or whatever comes to mind.

I think this vision of GOT as a variety of events strung together is part of what causes the randomness that at least I feel in some of the episodes in terms of how they make their selections. Like, why were Sam and Gilly idoing in Episode 9? And why in the hell was this episode SHORT?! Something hardly anyone has noticed or talked about.

:bowdown: Awesome analysis, you nailed it exactly and needless to say I agree.

I hope they are as devoted to he next Season, but we'll see.

I don't like cheap story-telling, and I'm not just speaking of controllable expenses, but relying on such attention-grabbers to carry the story when the story can stand on it's own merit.

There can be nudity if it is apart of the story, there can be brutality if it's apart of the story, but trying to be the "Marilyn Manson" of cinema doesn't guarantee a good story, and I'd rather a well told cliché than a badly executed attempt at "originality."

I don't know how many people are familiar with Robert Graves "I Claudius," but as I said up-thread the elements of that story were shocking beyond belief and that was Masterpiece Theater, but it was within historical context, (at least rumored historical context).

And before the sensors kicked in, the silent movie era was off the chain with anything you wanted to see, so this has been done before.

But yes, the episode with Sam and Gilly was short and felt choppy.

[Direwolf of the Starks]

I completely agree with you Ran, and that's why I gave it an 8 out of 10 on the poll. For an scene that they said was their whole reason for making the show, they kind of dropped the ball. They should've had George write this episode.

they tried to get him to write it but he wouldn't write it again

[The Crow]

I kind of think the direction was poor. Perhaps because they really dropped the ball with ShowRobb! and I was kind of looking forward to him dying (where as book Robb's death was completely tragic and seering), but I found myself feeling nothing.

i felt show Robb was more likable than book Robb.

[SerJeremiahLouistark]

they tried to get him to write it but he wouldn't write it again

Surely we aren't suggesting GRRM is tired of killing Starks......shit I hope he never reads this, Bran Rickon Sansa and Arya are done for sure.

[Dragonstoned]

Surely we aren't suggesting GRRM is tired of killing Starks......shit I hope he never reads this, Bran Rickon Sansa and Arya are done for sure.

Haha, I think he didn't want to go through with it again. I know Catelyn VII was the last chapter he wrote in ASoS after he'd done all the rest.

[isiman]

they tried to get him to write it but he wouldn't write it again

Source of this?

Between, screenwriters have to follow a big direction from D & D anyway.

[Kolantero]

I think that it affected her in one of the last scenes as well. When she said to Walder Frey "Please, He is my son. My First son." . Now I know this is a very minor detail to worry about, but to me I think it would have been better if it were: "My Last son." It would add to show how desperate she is to at least keep one of her children alive.

I thought about this as well and I believe that they wrote it like this in order not to confuse the show-only readers who might have forgotten that Bran and Rickon were seen as dead from Robb and Cat (that is, if they took that road in the show) and would start to wonder if they mixed up the characters and Bran and Rickon aren't Cat's kids.

The show is really confusing to any person i know who does not watch the episodes more than once

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

They could have had her say "My first son, and my last..." Some of this stuff isn't that hard and you guys are way too forgiving for these easy misses.

[SER WILLIAM the GREAT]

I thought the entire Red Wedding was shot as best as D & D could make it for TV. In my opinion the moment when the doors closed and The Rains of Castamere played to Cat getting her throat slit was the best television I have ever seen.

[Faceless Sam]

I think more is being made of the "build up" to the Red Wedding than is necessary. In a recent interview with EW, Martin says "There’s a certain amount of foreboding leading up to it. It’s a betrayal. It comes out of left field. It’s at a wedding feast. Robb has made his peace and you think the worst is over. Then it comes out of nowhere." Clearly Martin wanted the Red Wedding to be a shock and a surprise, even with the foreshadowing. That was clearly what resonated the most with Benioff and Weiss when they read it, so that's what they played up the most for the television show.

When I read it, I didn't feel this mounting suspense like a horror movie leading up to the killings which is what Ran is talking about in his review. For me, like Martin says, it "came out of left field." I thought the things like the bad food and whatnot was meant to show that Walder Frey was disrespecting Robb and Catelyn, it was only later that I realized what was REALLY going on, and of course all of that is clear on re-readings.

In the show there is a certain amount of pretext and suspense created after the "bedding" and the women leave, which Catelyn notes with increasing apprehension. I think if there was this extended mounting sense of dread on the show it would be a dead giveaway that there was about to be a murder. And if the audience sees it coming, they would ask why Robb doesn't see it coming and get the hell out of there, all of which would greatly reduce the shock and horror of the actual betrayal.

pretty much this. when i read it i didnt feel any dread before it happened at all. rather, i was kind of bored by yet another feast and the food descriptions that usually accompany it and BOOOM suddenly everyone was dying and i had no idea what the freck was going on.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Are Ran and others saying that it should have been clear from the beginning that something was up? Some viewers are already saying that. On the other hand, I know some who read the novels are were absolutely shocked by what happened, even despite all the "hints." The show had a delicate balance to strike, and while they could have done better I don't think the episode was a failure by any means