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[Book Spoilers] Volantis and Talisa


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methinks we give the producers/writers too much credit in the swap or insertion of a new character. It could be in response to something dumb like focus group. Like why did they change Asha to Yara... Something dumb that we could not connect a reason to having an educated argument in the forum.

After done, its not like they have it all figured out. Since the new character has no tie to greater story or are they woven into GRRM's master plan, the writers drown in each successive rewrite to cover the original slight. Without any great plan that contributes to the storyline they are left to dispose of the character in some way like they did to Ros. We debated over and over what role she would play or who she would replace and then phooey....nada

I think it all boils down to another house in the westerlings not going to be part of the story. The original slight is that Rob being a foolish young romantic, that he is tempted by exotic woman instead of plain practical frey like his mother wanted. That is the dialogue he has with his mother. Whenever Rob did not listen to wisdom of his mother bad things happen. I could see D&D sitting around at a table... Well maybe she can come from far off Volantis..... yeah thats the ticket

I do think they used her death to show how vicious the Frey's are for future retribution. TV viewers will want to see vengeance.. We know why Rob and Cat had it coming because they betrayed a man who already felt slighted by the realm. Cat said more then once better to not deal with, Trust or Cross Walder Frey

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A random nobody going up to a king and telling him his war is BS is a completely different thing, the king has no vested interest in her, she's not even from Westeros, she is literally a nobody.

A random nobody. How do we know that?

She seemed to have the same mysterious unexplained back ground of Bronn and Shae, who I guess we will never find out about?

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She is a random nobody to Robb though. So is Shae to Tyrion and vice versa (well, not nobody so much as stranger from that end) for that matter yet Shae talks about clawing his eyes out or something (can't remember, that seems a bit OTT).

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Yes, she is a nobody. She's a random person not even from Westeros, she has no family whose honor anyone would care about.

The idea that a pretty girl can walk up to a king and be sassy and smartmouthed and he falls in love with her is exactly the kind of cliches GRRM has tried to stay away from, in fact, he has specifically said he hates this particular trope.

King meets a straight-talking foreign commoner. They fall in love and have an unarranged marriage against all the wishes of his family, peers and subjects. And it costs him the crown.

So preposterous? I give you Edward VIII and Mrs Simpson.

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<p>

<br />

King meets a straight-talking foreign commoner. They fall in love and have an unarranged marriage against all the wishes of his family, peers and subjects. And it costs him the crown.<br />

<br />

So preposterous? I give you Edward VIII and Mrs Simpson.<br />

Ha a good one.

Lord that was 76 years ago.

One wonders, in this non Martin-world of the 21st century if that would even made a headline in England anymore?

I think there are plenty in Great Britain would not mind getting rid of that 'window dressing' monarchy?

Queen Beatrix of of the Netherlands just abdicated in favor of her son, don't guess that would happen in Westeros.

Always brings up Dany becoming sole Queen of Westeros. I am not sure of this , but so far , GRRM has not mentioned as single female ruler in either Westeros or Essos.

Anybody ever asked George about that?

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One wonders, in this non Martin-world of the 21st century if that would even made a headline in England anymore?

I think there are plenty in Great Britain would not mind getting rid of that 'window dressing' monarchy?

Although they do still tend to marry into the upper eschlons of British society it's not the huge deal it used to be. William married the girl he met at university after all. If there was any kind of impropriety it would still make massive headlines in the tabloids though, but not be the supposed crisis of the monarchy it was back in Edward's day.

The country is probably split down the middle for and against the monarchy in principal - plenty of people do still see the Queen as their liege in a very real way, while a good proportion see her as an anachronism. That said I think it's fair to say that if push came to shove most Brits would say the monarchy are worth holding on to despite being heads of state in name only. Most of the country enjoyed the pomp and glamour of the recent RW for example (the Royal Wedding, not Red Wedding). And seeing the Queen 'jump out' of the helicopter with James Bond at the Olympics was a hoot. I'm not really a royalist myself, but I can see they have some part to play in the national psyche.

They are having to move with the times of course. Yes they are privileged, but the youngsters don't lounge about torturing their subjects all day - Harry has done tours of duty in Afghanistan, William is a search & rescue helicopter pilot, and their mum did a lot of important charity work with AIDS organisations and such. The next generation are quite well liked and seem reasonably well-adjusted. Whatever people think about them I don't think the Windsors are going anywhere soon.

(Sorry veered way off topic)

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They are having to move with the times of course. Yes they are privileged, but the youngsters don't lounge about torturing their subjects all day - Harry has done tours of duty in Afghanistan, William is a search & rescue helicopter pilot, and their mum did a lot of important charity work with AIDS organisations and such. The next generation are quite well liked and seem reasonably well-adjusted. Whatever people think about them I don't think the Windsors are going anywhere soon.

(Sorry veered way off topic)

Their 'good works' are hobbies and PR.

The Royal Family still exists because the serfs like to dream of living in castles.

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Their 'good works' are hobbies and PR.

The Royal Family still exists because the serfs like to dream of living in castles.

I'm not a huge fan of the royalty, but be fair, I wouldn't call fighting for your country in an active warzone a hobby. If we are keeping them as figureheads for nostalgic reasons and to generate tourism revenue, I would rather they are doing things like charity or rescue work that benefits society rather than hunting boar, jousting and collecting mistresses. But that's not to say a system where you are born into such privilege paid for by everyone else is fair or right of course.

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  • 2 weeks later...

It seems like nobody liked Talisa. I think she was a good change from the innocent bird-girl Jeyne. I liked that she had a personality of her own, and that she and Robb had an actual RELATIONSHIP before they were married, instead of spending one grief-stricken night together and then getting married arbitrarily to "spare her honor." Never once was Jeyne ever in control of her situation, ever. It's kind of sad and pathetic.

Generally, Talisa was an ADULT. She made her own choices and did things because she wanted to. She traveled from Volantis because she wanted to. She married Robb because she wanted to. She stayed by his side because she wanted to. She wanted to have his child and raise it with him. She was in control of her life, until the moment the Frey guard took that life away.

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It seems like nobody liked Talisa. I think she was a good change from the innocent bird-girl Jeyne. I liked that she had a personality of her own, and that she and Robb had an actual RELATIONSHIP before they were married, instead of spending one grief-stricken night together and then getting married arbitrarily to "spare her honor." Never once was Jeyne ever in control of her situation, ever. It's kind of sad and pathetic.

Generally, Talisa was an ADULT. She made her own choices and did things because she wanted to. She traveled from Volantis because she wanted to. She married Robb because she wanted to. She stayed by his side because she wanted to. She wanted to have his child and raise it with him. She was in control of her life, until the moment the Frey guard took that life away.

Absolutely. She was a strong woman without being a killer.

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It seems like nobody liked Talisa. I think she was a good change from the innocent bird-girl Jeyne. I liked that she had a personality of her own, and that she and Robb had an actual RELATIONSHIP before they were married, instead of spending one grief-stricken night together and then getting married arbitrarily to "spare her honor." Never once was Jeyne ever in control of her situation, ever. It's kind of sad and pathetic.

Generally, Talisa was an ADULT. She made her own choices and did things because she wanted to. She traveled from Volantis because she wanted to. She married Robb because she wanted to. She stayed by his side because she wanted to. She wanted to have his child and raise it with him. She was in control of her life, until the moment the Frey guard took that life away.

So? Am I supposed to like her more because she chose to have a child with Robb? You're assuming that Jeyne didn't choose to do the same, everything implies that she did. And Robb would never force her to get married nor would anyone wish for her to do so even if it means her getting dishonored.And there was every indication that she and Robb were in love later. So she has agency, you just didn't like the manifestation.

Agency=/= likability or reality. Not sure why I should care that Talisa had some illusory sense of purpose.

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So? Am I supposed to like her more because she chose to have a child with Robb? You're assuming that Jeyne didn't choose to do the same, everything implies that she did.

It doesn't matter what she chose: she had no control over her body. Her mother was drugging her and effectively making the choice for her.

And Robb would never force her to get married nor would anyone wish for her to do so even if it means her getting dishonored.

The idea that Jeyne could somehow have chosen not to marry him is rediculous. She's already slept with him. It's a choice between marrying him or being shamed and bringing dishonor on her family forever and ever. She can't go against the will of her king and her family. A noble girl who is not a virgin cannot hope to get a good marriage, so she had to either marry now, and marry the man she'd lost her virginity too, or be tarnished goods forever. Maybe she wanted to stay with him, but her wants didn't really matter.

And there was every indication that she and Robb were in love later.

She and Robb are also teenagers who are discovering their sexuality together, and when your 14 sex can easily be mistaken for love. And coming to love each other later doesn't change that both she and Robb were powerless pawns in their own marriage.

So she has agency, you just didn't like the manifestation.

You don't have agency if none of your decisions matter. At every turn Jeyne did her family's bidding, and none of her "choices" really changed anything. She didn't have any real control over her situation.

Like or hate Talisa, at least I never got the impression that she wasn't in control of her own life. Until they took it, that is.

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You don't have agency if none of your decisions matter. At every turn Jeyne did her family's bidding, and none of her "choices" really changed anything. She didn't have any real control over her situation.

What choices of hers honestly changed anything? (Talisa I mean). None of her choices mattered either. The only big change was the show writers decided to give her the whole being pregnant thing. Nothing she did, choice wise, is really better than Jeyne because neither, in hindsight, make any choices that really amount to anything. Just because Talisa had more of a choice doesn't mean she did anything of actual importance. (I guess you could say her healing people is something but what does that really matter when the only people she tended to that we even semi knew was the Lannister boys.) but none of her choices really affected anything. So whether she had a choice or Jeyne going along with her family neither really change anything.

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What choices of hers honestly changed anything?

Lets see...

She chose to leave Volantis, resulting in her being in Westeros in the first place.

She chose to nurse the injured soldiers, probably saving lives.

She chose to snark at Robb, resulting in him remembering her.

She chose to keep talking to him, resulting in the blossoming relationship between the two of them.

She chose to marry him, even though she knew he'd been promised to someone else.

She chose to stay with him during the war, even though it was dangerous. Every single choice she makes changes things for her and for Robb.

At any of these points, she was free to chose otherwise. She has a home waiting for her in Volantis. She could pack up and go back at any time. She choses not to.

At no point is Jayne free to do anything other then exactly what she ends up doing. Which is probably why Jeyne is spared, and Talisa dies with her husband and son. The world of Ice and Fire has no mercy on those who strive to control their own fates.

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The idea that Jeyne could somehow have chosen not to marry him is rediculous. She's already slept with him. It's a choice between marrying him or being shamed and bringing dishonor on her family forever and ever.

You seriously believe that marrying Robb when the Tywin Lannister is around the corner is brings less dishonor than going the route of that woman who was raped in the books and marrying some ambitious knight somewhere? And what does it matter? She chose to sleep with Robb. Nowhere does it say that agency is freedom from causality.

She can't go against the will of her king and her family.

Robb is not her king. She did go against the will of her true king, Joffrey. Or more importantly, Tywin. Her family is probably not happy about their new position at all, allied with an enemy when their liege punishes treason with complete destruction. If they were happy their mother wouldn't have drugged her.

A noble girl who is not a virgin cannot hope to get a good marriage, so she had to either marry now, and marry the man she'd lost her virginity too, or be tarnished goods forever. Maybe she wanted to stay with him, but her wants didn't really matter.

It's still what we would call a choice, and she made it. She could have gone Lollys. It probably would have been better for everyone. She didn't. Regardless, again, she did not trip and fall on Robb's penis. She did not suddenly lose her maidenhead in some magical accident. She chose to do it. This whole thing was set off by her. I find it strange that you're ignoring this.

She and Robb are also teenagers who are discovering their sexuality together, and when your 14 sex can easily be mistaken for love.

Or it could just be love unless there's any reason to think otherwise. This pedantry about X "only thinking they're in love" is pointless.

And coming to love each other later doesn't change that both she and Robb were powerless pawns in their own marriage.

Except no? Seriously, you have a weird definition of powerless. Both parties could have done otherwise, they deliberately picked out the most inexpedient path.

She chose to leave Volantis, resulting in her being in Westeros in the first place.

She chose to nurse the injured soldiers, probably saving lives.

You mean like Jeyne nursed Robb?

She chose to snark at Robb, resulting in him remembering her.

She chose to keep talking to him, resulting in the blossoming relationship between the two of them.

She chose to marry him, even though she knew he'd been promised to someone else.

She chose to stay with him during the war, even though it was dangerous. Every single choice she makes changes things for her and for Robb.

As opposed to Jeyne who just nursed then slept with Robb (resulting in him remembering her :|) , married him (knowing he was promised to someone else) and stayed with him. Her choices don't really change anything right? The change can not have been that great when the character you're claiming has no agency is achieved the same thing causally as Talisa.

And agency based on "she talked to the boy and the boy noticed her" is funny I have to say.

Your argument really only works if one buys that Jeyne had no agency in the first place.

Like or hate Talisa, at least I never got the impression that she wasn't in control of her own life. Until they took it, that is.

The rest of my argument is basically pedantry. The important question is: so? Even if this is true why does this matter? Why is this a defense? Talisa is really just as morally bankrupt or perhaps better to say politically disastrous as Jeyne. In fact, more so. Jeyne was a child. Talisa is bankrupt by her own moral code, the same code she used to slam Robb early on, only to ignore when it "suited" her. From then on...nothing. Just hamfisted attempts to get us to care for her.

The country is probably split down the middle for and against the monarchy in principal - plenty of people do still see the Queen as their liege in a very real way,

Why on Earth anyone would want to do this is beyond me.

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Lets see...

She chose to leave Volantis, resulting in her being in Westeros in the first place.

She chose to nurse the injured soldiers, probably saving lives.

She chose to snark at Robb, resulting in him remembering her.

She chose to keep talking to him, resulting in the blossoming relationship between the two of them.

She chose to marry him, even though she knew he'd been promised to someone else.

She chose to stay with him during the war, even though it was dangerous. Every single choice she makes changes things for her and for Robb.

At any of these points, she was free to chose otherwise. She has a home waiting for her in Volantis. She could pack up and go back at any time. She choses not to.

At no point is Jayne free to do anything other then exactly what she ends up doing. Which is probably why Jeyne is spared, and Talisa dies with her husband and son. The world of Ice and Fire has no mercy on those who strive to control their own fates.

I'm talking about what choices affect the story. In no way does it change anything from how it went with Jeyne. That was my point.

Eta; aside from them idiotically changing it to where she went to the wedding and her death.

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I'm talking about what choices affect the story. In no way does it change anything from how it went with Jeyne. That was my point.

It's the opposite of how things went with Jeyne, unless you count the Plot Important Thing of Robb's Breaking his word to Walder Frey. Really, that had to happen for the story to go where we know it's going to go. Other then that, and the fact Robb loved both of them, the two characters are pretty much opposites. Jeyne is sweet, ignorant, weak-willed and oblivious. Talisa is assertive, adventurous, strong-willed and idealistic. Jeyne is from an old Northern family, Talisa isn't even from Westeros at all. The story went where it had to go, because Talisa made choices that actually got it to go there.

Eta; aside from them idiotically changing it to where she went to the wedding and her death.

What's idiotic about it? Are you one of the "Jeyne Westerling is pregnant" people? Because that theory was always kinda B.S. Blackfish did not rescue the real Jeyne, he will not bring Robb's son from the wilderness to avenge his father, and all "evidence" to the contrary is fans seeing what they want to see.

Besides, Rikkon is the one who's going to bring back the Starks. Long live the Black Wolf.

You seriously believe that marrying Robb when the Tywin Lannister is around the corner is brings less dishonor

She's from Volantis and she's actively scornful of the arguments between Westerosi lords. What does she care about Tywin Lannister? She married Robb because she wanted to, and one thing she was not was not concerned about was honor. She never gave it a thought.

than going the route of that woman who was raped in the books and marrying some ambitious knight somewhere?

Talisa isn't in the books so you'll have to explain this statement. Do you mean Tysha?

And what does it matter? She chose to sleep with Robb. Nowhere does it say that agency is freedom from causality.

I agree. But at least she could have theoretically chosen differently. There was nobody standing over her shoulder with their love potions and their contraceptives, making sure everything went according to plan.

Robb is not her king.

Yes he is. That's why he was staying in the Westerling house. Her family, on the other hand, wanted to be on the winning side.

She did go against the will of her true king, Joffrey. Or more importantly, Tywin. Her family is probably not happy about their new position at all, allied with an enemy when their liege punishes treason with complete destruction. If they were happy their mother wouldn't have drugged her.

Her family was probably thrilled to be in a position to win no matter what happened. If Robb won the war, well, their daughter is Queen and their house is now one of the most powerful in the North. If, as it happened, it looks like Robb is not going to win, they are well-placed to do Lord Tywin a few favors he won't forget, like make sure Robb has no heirs and loses the alliance of the Freys... A Lannister always pays his debts.

With all this at stake, I think her mother would definitely have drugged her daughter with a love potion and thrown her at the grief-stricken lad. Or maybe she didn't have to. Maybe she saw her daughter sighing over the handsome young king and saw an opportunity. We'll probably never know for sure.

It's still what we would call a choice, and she made it. She could have gone Lollys. It probably would have been better for everyone. She didn't. Regardless, again, she did not trip and fall on Robb's penis. She did not suddenly lose her maidenhead in some magical accident. She chose to do it. This whole thing was set off by her. I find it strange that you're ignoring this.

I find it strange that you forget that this was a moment of extreme vulnerability for both of them. Robb had just learned of the sack of Winterfell and the deaths of his brothers. Jeyne wanted to comfort him in his grief. And momma just happens to have the potions on hand to make both of them "feel better" when their judgement was already impaired.

I know I'm guessing when I say that Momma drugged Jayne as well: she probably didn't have to; hormones could have done the work for her. Maybe she just made the most of an opportunity, knowing what happens between young people at moments of weakness and knowing that loosing the Freys will be a blow to Robb and Lannisters always pay their debts...

Or it could just be love unless there's any reason to think otherwise. This pedantry about X "only thinking they're in love" is pointless.

It's also irrelevant. Jeyne was never free to leave Robb. Where would she go? What becomes of disgraced, deflowed noble girls?

Except no? Seriously, you have a weird definition of powerless. Both parties could have done otherwise, they deliberately picked out the most inexpedient path.

Neither party could do otherwise. If Jeyne doesn't marry him, she's stigmatized for life. If Robb doesn't marry her, his Stark Honor has to deal with his "taking adventage" and ruining the life of this innocent girl who wanted nothing more then to help him. They both did their duty.

You mean like Jeyne nursed Robb?

Without the obvious ulterior motive.

As opposed to Jeyne who just nursed then slept with Robb (resulting in him remembering her :|) , married him (knowing he was promised to someone else) and stayed with him.

None of which was really her idea. Her mother masterminded it all.

Her choices don't really change anything right? The change can not have been that great when the character you're claiming has no agency is achieved the same thing causally as Talisa.

Except Talisa was free to leave, so every moment she spent with Robb was her choice. Jeyne never had that option.

And agency based on "she talked to the boy and the boy noticed her" is funny I have to say.

It's better then "the boy and girl slept together once, so now they're married." At least Robb and Talisa have a RELATIONSHIP before they get hitched.

Your argument really only works if one buys that Jeyne had no agency in the first place.

You have proof that she did, knowing what we know of her mother?

The rest of my argument is basically pedantry. The important question is: so? Even if this is true why does this matter? Why is this a defense? Talisa is really just as morally bankrupt or perhaps better to say politically disastrous as Jeyne. In fact, more so. Jeyne was a child.

And Talisa is an adult. An adult who, through her good intentions and noble ideals, causes an atrocity to occur. This is a common theme in Game of Thrones. Those who stand up for higher ideals get cut down brutally. If you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.

Talisa is bankrupt by her own moral code, the same code she used to slam Robb early on, only to ignore when it "suited" her. From then on...nothing. Just hamfisted attempts to get us to care for her.

Successful ones, in my case. I knew she had to die, so her displays of strength and will were that much sadder. She married Robb knowing he wasn't perfect but deciding to work with him to make things better. He'd convinced her of his noble intentions and she was going to help him realize them. We can add her to the list of people who's intrinsic goodness get her brutalized in the end.

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It's the opposite of how things went with Jeyne, unless you count the Plot Important Thing of Robb's Breaking his word to Walder Frey. Really, that had to happen for the story to go where we know it's going to go. Other then that, and the fact Robb loved both of them, the two characters are pretty much opposites. Jeyne is sweet, ignorant, weak-willed and oblivious. Talisa is assertive, adventurous, strong-willed and idealistic. Jeyne is from an old Northern family, Talisa isn't even from Westeros at all. The story went where it had to go, because Talisa made choices that actually got it to go there.

What's idiotic about it? Are you one of the "Jeyne Westerling is pregnant" people? Because that theory was always kinda B.S. Blackfish did not rescue the real Jeyne, he will not bring Robb's son from the wilderness to avenge his father, and all "evidence" to the contrary is fans seeing what they want to see.

Besides, Rikkon is the one who's going to bring back the Starks. Long live the Black Wolf.

Talisa more of a realistic thinker? Lmfao. That dumbass couldn't even look on a map to see where Winterfell is. Her and Robb decide its smart for a pregnant woman to go to a house of a family they scorned. Neither have any regrets over scorning the house. This is the same girl that also never saw herself marrying which isn't idealistic considering the world. Surely her family would have her marry at some point so her saying that is wrong on so many levels.

And honestly you can't really say Jeyne is weak willed. Obviously she and Robb were still children in the books. There's not much she could have really done differently. The fact they are so young and yet bold in marrying their enemy, and the fact she openly defied her mother in front of Jaime I wouldn't call her being weak for that. It would take guts to make a stand like that. And as mentioned above Talisa is just as oblivious as they're stupid enough to have her go to the wedding when it really isn't a smart choice, at all. And she is obviously oblivious and very ignorant to Westerosi customs which she should be learning since her husband is from Westeros.

Any way you decide to slice the pie Talisa really isn't all that better than Jeyne. She doesn't have much more of a backstory, we know only a little about both. (But I would argue we should have known more about Talisa and we knew all we needed to of Jeyne.) She just has a differently personality but is just as much of a plot device.

Oh and no I'm not one of those people. Sure I would have liked Jeyne to be pregnant but I know it's very highly unlikely. I'm just saying how straight up stupid the characters were to think it was smart for her to go before the Freys, the woman who helped scorn their family by marrying Robb. That's all. I very much agree about Rickon. I want him to lead on House Stark.

(I don't think it's unrealistic that Blackfish could have taken Jeyne with him though. She's his great nephews? Wife. There's no mention of her sister after the meeting with Cat in book three so its possible. But even so I don't think she's pregnant.)

The fact you only listed four traits for each kind of proves there's not to much more to Talisa than there was Jeyne. They just have different personalities, but again both are plot devices. (I do think some of your Jeyne listings is a bit simplified and wrong though.)

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She's from Volantis and she's actively scornful of the arguments between Westerosi lords. What does she care about Tywin Lannister? She married Robb because she wanted to, and one thing she was not was not concerned about was honor. She never gave it a thought.

I meant Jeyne Westerling, someone who has every reason to care about Tywin Lannister.

Talisa isn't in the books so you'll have to explain this statement. Do you mean Tysha?

Jeyne again.

I agree. But at least she could have theoretically chosen differently. There was nobody standing over her shoulder with their love potions and their contraceptives, making sure everything went according to plan.

And? You realize I'm talking about Jeyne right? And that that love potion stuff is just fandom speculation.

Yes he is. That's why he was staying in the Westerling house. Her family, on the other hand, wanted to be on the winning side.

He was staying there because he took the castle in battle. That's all. They're actually vassals of Tywin.

Her family was probably thrilled to be in a position to win no matter what happened. If Robb won the war, well, their daughter is Queen and their house is now one of the most powerful in the North. If, as it happened, it looks like Robb is not going to win, they are well-placed to do Lord Tywin a few favors he won't forget, like make sure Robb has no heirs and loses the alliance of the Freys... A Lannister always pays his debts.

The deal was arranged afterwards because they were so shit scared of Tywin burning them to the ground.

With all this at stake, I think her mother would definitely have drugged her daughter with a love potion and thrown her at the grief-stricken lad. Or maybe she didn't have to. Maybe she saw her daughter sighing over the handsome young king and saw an opportunity. We'll probably never know for sure.

Right, so...you construct theories based on fandom speculation and then use them to invalidate decisions? Fair enough. I choose to go with the simplest explanation.

I find it strange that you forget that this was a moment of extreme vulnerability for both of them. Robb had just learned of the sack of Winterfell and the deaths of his brothers. Jeyne wanted to comfort him in his grief. And momma just happens to have the potions on hand to make both of them "feel better" when their judgement was already impaired.

Once again:fandom speculation. So your entire case for Jeyne having no agency depends on this one particular idea?

I know I'm guessing when I say that Momma drugged Jayne as well: she probably didn't have to; hormones could have done the work for her. Maybe she just made the most of an opportunity, knowing what happens between young people at moments of weakness and knowing that loosing the Freys will be a blow to Robb and Lannisters always pay their debts...

So? Again, making a decision does not free you of causality.

It's also irrelevant. Jeyne was never free to leave Robb. Where would she go? What becomes of disgraced, deflowed noble girls?

The same thing that happened to Lollys. They marry some up-jumped knight. It's a hell of a lot better than getting everyone you know killed by Tywin Lannister.

Neither party could do otherwise. If Jeyne doesn't marry him, she's stigmatized for life. If Robb doesn't marry her, his Stark Honor has to deal with his "taking adventage" and ruining the life of this innocent girl who wanted nothing more then to help him. They both did their duty.

I think you're severely overestimating the amount of duty involved. Marrying Robb is a dangerous political move that could be the end of the Westerlings. And Robb...has no reason at all to marry her. He can simply move on, he can offer to take her as a mistress, he can just go away and let her deal with it They can pretend that it didn't happen and quickly marry her off to someone to hungry to know or care.And no one will give a fuck. Or rather, they won't give a measurable fuck.

All this talk of honor is bullshit, when push comes to shove people expect this shit from nobles and will be glad that their king didn't let one of their most important alliances get fucked up because of some Lannister vassal's daughter.

You're greatly over-selling the pressures on Robb here. The idea that he has no choice here is baffling.

Without the obvious ulterior motive.

None of which was really her idea. Her mother masterminded it all.

As far as we know, Jeyne's mother wrote to Tywin after the fact and started drugging her to avoid children. This whole "Jeyne's mother is Palpatine" is convenient for your argument but again, unconvinced.

Except Talisa was free to leave, so every moment she spent with Robb was her choice. Jeyne never had that option.

Jeyne chose to stay.

It's better then "the boy and girl slept together once, so now they're married." At least Robb and Talisa have a RELATIONSHIP before they get hitched.

Better in what regard? Because it conforms to what you expect of a love story? Both are contrived situations, I'd argue that Westerners are simply already primed for the Robb/Talisa story. Doesn't make it better.

You have proof that she did, knowing what we know of her mother?

If you wish to turn Jeyne's mother into some sort of demonic spider-monster pulling every string of her personality and removing any free will you're free to do so,I remain skeptical.

And Talisa is an adult. An adult who, through her good intentions and noble ideals, causes an atrocity to occur.
Good intentions? What good intentions? Bullshit. She wanted to get married to someone she loved and she did it. Bigger concerns didn't factor, because she would have known that she offered nothing from a realpolitik standpoint.
This is a common theme in Game of Thrones. Those who stand up for higher ideals get cut down brutally. If you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention.

What higher ideals? Oh Robb, you can't fight a war based solely on revenge because innocent people die! But we can get married and ruin an important alliance because we're in lurrrvv. Come on :rolleyes: ...

Successful ones, in my case. I knew she had to die, so her displays of strength and will were that much sadder. She married Robb knowing he wasn't perfect but deciding to work with him to make things better. He'd convinced her of his noble intentions and she was going to help him realize them. We can add her to the list of people who's intrinsic goodness get her brutalized in the end.

And she did about..nothing to make things better. Why? Because she really couldn't. She basically got pregnant and seemed to completely recede from anything important. Kinda like Jeyne...Well, that's not completely fair. She stood there and looked sad as Robb decided to kill Karstark. Something Jeyne would totally be incapable of.

And no, her intrinsic goodness did not get her killed. Sorry, if she was saving lives on the field and died we'd have a discussion but she was killed for being part of an insult to an ally...by marrying a "taken" king. This had nothing to do with goodness. It was a decision by Talisa for Talisa. Same goes for TV!Robb really.

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