Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

LordStoneheart

[Book Spoilers] Volantis and Talisa

Recommended Posts

Sometimes .. it just feels that people are anti-Talisa for the simple reason that she replaced Jeyne in the books & that it brought a conclusion to a lot of Theories & stuff ... I would have been truly upset if there was a replacement of the character 'HAD THE SHOW BEEN NOT CONNECTED with GRRM .. But since GRRM who obviously has a hand over the mythos of this Saga considers Talisa as appropriate .. I am fine with it .

This episode ( of all other episodes ) .. was the most important one for G.R.R.M. & for the show creators as well ... I mean they literally brought the rights of the show to execute these 10 minutes .... It obviously was with the approval of GRRM .

For people who consider her story line ridiculous ... I doubt it was more ridiculous than Robb falling in love with a low Lannister house ... and his in-laws plotting with Lannister to kill their son-in-law who is a king & their unborn grandson/daughter who might be the next big shot ... They would be doing everything detrimental to them .!!

I think GRRM had a big say in casting Talisa as Jeyne & building another practical plot line to avoid a few 'mistakes' that might have cropped up with the original story-telling . The amount of ridiculous theory that the Red Wedding caused in the books involved Robb warging just because he used 'Greywind' as his last word ... & that he may be alive as Reynald's body was not found ... Then the pregnancy & hip theories ....

The way I see it .... He is lucky he's got a chance to redo the history of his character !!!!!!

Anyways .. People would always find a reason to criticize.

For me Talisa is in the same boat as show-Shae. I can see why they wanted to re-write the characters and I don't care about the book character (does anyone really care about book Shae or Jeyne Westerling?). It's just that they gave show-Shae and Talisa so many scenes that eat up time while cutting a lot of book stuff that I'd like to see out. Also in the books males have more lines of dialogue than the females so the show tries to even it out a bit, which I think is a worthy goal but often the implementation is bad as it is with Talisa. She just seems too much of a modern person set into Westeros, every other line that comes out of her mouth is just completely jarring right now to her commenting on the bedding right at the end, which really makes her seem like a bad fan fiction author-insert character.

The other point is that she changes Robb motivation for betraying his oath to the Freys. In the books it wasn't so much love that made him do it as that he felt honor-bound to not father a bastard which ties him back into Nedd well. Every time I read an Unsullied complain about how Robb wasn't as honorable as his dad that twinges a bit. A bit like how they built up Ygritte in Season 2 at Jon's expense (which Ygritte didn't need since she has a great actress who can carry the role without the writing having to puff her up), the expansion of the Jeyne into Talisa lessens Robb and doesn't give us much to compensate for that besides a lot of time that could be better spent elsewhere.

On the other hand their tendency to expand minor female characters works well with Margaery and the QoT. I think that the writers just do their best when coloring in within the lines that Martin has given them, when they make up stuff whole cloth they often stumble.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sometimes .. it just feels that people are anti-Talisa for the simple reason that she replaced Jeyne in the books & that it brought a conclusion to a lot of Theories & stuff ... I would have been truly upset if there was a replacement of the character 'HAD THE SHOW BEEN NOT CONNECTED with GRRM .. But since GRRM who obviously has a hand over the mythos of this Saga considers Talisa as appropriate .. I am fine with it .

This episode ( of all other episodes ) .. was the most important one for G.R.R.M. & for the show creators as well ... I mean they literally brought the rights of the show to execute these 10 minutes .... It obviously was with the approval of GRRM .

For people who consider her story line ridiculous ... I doubt it was more ridiculous than Robb falling in love with a low Lannister house ... and his in-laws plotting with Lannister to kill their son-in-law who is a king & their unborn grandson/daughter who might be the next big shot ... They would be doing everything detrimental to them .!!

I think GRRM had a big say in casting Talisa as Jeyne & building another practical plot line to avoid a few 'mistakes' that might have cropped up with the original story-telling . The amount of ridiculous theory that the Red Wedding caused in the books involved Robb warging just because he used 'Greywind' as his last word ... & that he may be alive as Reynald's body was not found ... Then the pregnancy & hip theories ....

The way I see it .... He is lucky he's got a chance to redo the history of his character !!!!!!

Anyways .. People would always find a reason to criticize.

I agree with this line of thinking. In the HBO production GRRM has the opportunity to indulge in variations and riffs on his printed theme. Some are required, but others may be embellishments or embedding clues to what remains yet untold in the novels.

Respectfully,

Steve

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Volantis remembers. Sorry, I just had to post that.

I don't think we'll hear anything more about that, unless of course Tyrion runs into Talisa's family members when he's across the Narrow Sea.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Repost -- my first one must have gotten lost somewhere between Westeros and Volantis.

I had thought about the letter Talisa wrote, too, wondering if it ever got sent off. I thought it a bit strange that in the RW scene, she was the first we saw attacked, with someone jumping forward and stabbing her over and over and over in the stomach, not in the chest or throat as one might expect. I don't think that the show will spend any more time on the Talisa story line, but I wonder if her letter to her mother mentioned that she was pregnant and if the Freys intercepted it and that's why someone went for her stomach so viciously and first thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing that shocked and surprised me the most about her death was the way that they stabbed her so deliberately in the belly. I figured that they would kill Talisa as soon as she came along for the RW, and it was clinched when she revealed that she was pregnant. Her death was so brutal, though.

And I can't help but wonder if the show is very obviously trying to steer away from any mention of contraception/abortifacents in Westeros. I count at least three major references to "moon tea" now that have been eliminated by the show.

1) Cersei told Eddard that when Robert got her pregnant, she "took care of it" with tansy and moon tea. In the show, Cersei tells Catelyn that she actually had a child of Robert's (since he had black hair) and he died of fever. At first I thought the show was going worse by making her murder her son after the birth, but later when she talked about it with Robert, she made it sound like she was genuinely sad the infant had died and that was what soured their marriage (instead of her hating him from the start because he killed Rhaegar).

2) On his death bed, Hoster Tully mistakes Catelyn for Lysa and apologizes for killing her baby/making her marry Jon Arryn. Later, Lysa also mentions to Littlefinger that they murdered his child with tansy and moon tea. In the show, Hoster never had a chance to speak with Cat before he died, so there was no way for her to figure out about the relationship between Lysa and Petyr.

3) Jeyne Westerling's mother made sure that Jeyne could not be carrying Robb's heir. Again moon tea is mentioned. Instead, in the show we have a confirmed pregnant woman stabbed repeatedly in the belly.

Cutting out previous references was a minor thing for me before because the way they skirted around the issue wasn't a big deal. But with Talisa I'm mad. Is it really better (less controversial) to have a pregnant woman killed so violently on screen than to have a casual conversation reference to abortion/contraception/Plan B or whatever moon tea is supposed to be? Because that's ridiculous.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was absolutely horrified by how the Talisa storyline got resolved. Not just because the violence was so gruesome, over-the-top, and unnecessary. But because now it really just seems cheap and arbitrary that they changed the character so much.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Out of all the parts of the Red Wedding that I thought they botched, I thought her death was perfect.

The way the attacker walks up like nothing is happening and stabs her right in the Ned was awesome.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But I'm not entirely sure Talisa wasn't planted there by Tywin. When she first met Robb, she was a virulent anti-war type person and perhaps Tywin convinced her that seducing him would break his alliances and put an end to the war.....In the end she was the same honey pot roll that Jeyne played....just a hunch on my part.....but someone like Talisa doesn't meet Robb on the battle field by accident

I'm not sure if she was a spy or not, It'll be interesting to see Tywins reaction to her murder. The Freys, Boltons and Tywin would have reasons for knocking her and her child off. On the other hand the child could have been married off to one of the kids that Bolton could have with Fat Walda and cement the claim. Of course Tywin wants Tyrions children through Sansa to get the North. It would have made more sense to keep her alive, Robbs kid would have a better claim than Sansa or any of the other kids. I suppose Tywin will let us know if her family had any political importance. In the books he wanted Cat to be kept alive, all this business with killing wives and children is not good for the families image at a certian point.

I see Jeyne in the books and this Talissa character as both being somewhat egnimatic. You have to sort of wonder if there is more there than meets the eye but perhaps there is not.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And I can't help but wonder if the show is very obviously trying to steer away from any mention of contraception/abortifacents in Westeros. I count at least three major references to "moon tea" now that have been eliminated by the show.

1) Cersei told Eddard that when Robert got her pregnant, she "took care of it" with tansy and moon tea. In the show, Cersei tells Catelyn that she actually had a child of Robert's (since he had black hair) and he died of fever. At first I thought the show was going worse by making her murder her son after the birth, but later when she talked about it with Robert, she made it sound like she was genuinely sad the infant had died and that was what soured their marriage (instead of her hating him from the start because he killed Rhaegar).

2) On his death bed, Hoster Tully mistakes Catelyn for Lysa and apologizes for killing her baby/making her marry Jon Arryn. Later, Lysa also mentions to Littlefinger that they murdered his child with tansy and moon tea. In the show, Hoster never had a chance to speak with Cat before he died, so there was no way for her to figure out about the relationship between Lysa and Petyr.

3) Jeyne Westerling's mother made sure that Jeyne could not be carrying Robb's heir. Again moon tea is mentioned. Instead, in the show we have a confirmed pregnant woman stabbed repeatedly in the belly.

Cutting out previous references was a minor thing for me before because the way they skirted around the issue wasn't a big deal. But with Talisa I'm mad. Is it really better (less controversial) to have a pregnant woman killed so violently on screen than to have a casual conversation reference to abortion/contraception/Plan B or whatever moon tea is supposed to be? Because that's ridiculous.

I think all the mentions of moon tea that you reference were cut for other reasons. Cercei's character has been altered a bit for the show to make her more sympathetic, hence "mariage soured because of lost child" is brought in instead of "mariage soured because Robert called her Lyanna in bed and she's in love with her brother anyway." The scenes with Cat and Hoster were (sadly) cut for time purposes. And since Lady Westerling isn't in the show and Talisa apparently wanted to get pregnant, there's no cause for discussion of moon tea there. I'm SURE it will come up in future seasons when the Cercei/Margery rivalry heats up, and possibly also in the Asha/Yara storyline if it gets developed that much. Can't imagine why the show would avoid the subject on purpose, I think it's just another thing they haven't fit in yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was absolutely horrified by how the Talisa storyline got resolved. Not just because the violence was so gruesome, over-the-top, and unnecessary. But because now it really just seems cheap and arbitrary that they changed the character so much.

I am sorry but calling the one single death out of the 3500 gruesome, over the top and unnecessary just because GRRM didn't write it seems a bit ridiculous to me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was absolutely horrified by how the Talisa storyline got resolved. Not just because the violence was so gruesome, over-the-top, and unnecessary. But because now it really just seems cheap and arbitrary that they changed the character so much.

That's why I think Talisa's family in Volantis will be important to the Essos part of the plot later. It gives the changes some purpose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

That's why I think Talisa's family in Volantis will be important to the Essos part of the plot later. It gives the changes some purpose.

How are they to be important? I can't see them getting involved with anything north related no matter who died. Unless your referring simply to the show? Because book wise, I don't see it happening.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The thing that shocked and surprised me the most about her death was the way that they stabbed her so deliberately in the belly. I figured that they would kill Talisa as soon as she came along for the RW, and it was clinched when she revealed that she was pregnant. Her death was so brutal, though.

And I can't help but wonder if the show is very obviously trying to steer away from any mention of contraception/abortifacents in Westeros. I count at least three major references to "moon tea" now that have been eliminated by the show.

1) Cersei told Eddard that when Robert got her pregnant, she "took care of it" with tansy and moon tea. In the show, Cersei tells Catelyn that she actually had a child of Robert's (since he had black hair) and he died of fever. At first I thought the show was going worse by making her murder her son after the birth, but later when she talked about it with Robert, she made it sound like she was genuinely sad the infant had died and that was what soured their marriage (instead of her hating him from the start because he killed Rhaegar).

2) On his death bed, Hoster Tully mistakes Catelyn for Lysa and apologizes for killing her baby/making her marry Jon Arryn. Later, Lysa also mentions to Littlefinger that they murdered his child with tansy and moon tea. In the show, Hoster never had a chance to speak with Cat before he died, so there was no way for her to figure out about the relationship between Lysa and Petyr.

3) Jeyne Westerling's mother made sure that Jeyne could not be carrying Robb's heir. Again moon tea is mentioned. Instead, in the show we have a confirmed pregnant woman stabbed repeatedly in the belly.

Cutting out previous references was a minor thing for me before because the way they skirted around the issue wasn't a big deal. But with Talisa I'm mad. Is it really better (less controversial) to have a pregnant woman killed so violently on screen than to have a casual conversation reference to abortion/contraception/Plan B or whatever moon tea is supposed to be? Because that's ridiculous.

Wait so you are saying a show that deals with Incest/prostitution/pagan religions/ ect ect purposefully balked at discussion abortion and contraceptives?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't love the Talisa storyline. Only because it changed Robs sense of duty. In a book that is easier to show. On a show you don't have time. Taking that premise for grated....I think giving Rob a legit romance angle making him a bit more passionate....made the love story more interesting and therefore the Red Wedding more powerful. He followed his heart and not his head....when people do this in Westeros. HEADS ON PIKES. This lesson has been taught again and again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How are they to be important? I can't see them getting involved with anything north related no matter who died. Unless your referring simply to the show? Because book wise, I don't see it happening.

They might give the Golden Company ships to get to Westeros to get back at the Lannisters. Their bankers might refuse to give loans to the Iron Throne to bail them out with the Iron Bank. I totally agree that they have no reason to get involved in the North with Talisa and her unborn child out of the picture. I also agree that the Westerlings and the Spicers do not seem to be terribly important houses in the book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They might give the Golden Company ships to get to Westeros to get back at the Lannisters. Their bankers might refuse to give loans to the Iron Throne to bail them out with the Iron Bank. I totally agree that they have no reason to get involved in the North with Talisa and her unborn child out of the picture. I also agree that the Westerlings and the Spicers do not seem to be terribly important houses in the book.

So are you saying strictly according to the show? Because I still have trouble seeing it happening as far as the books go.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not sure if she was a spy or not, It'll be interesting to see Tywins reaction to her murder. The Freys, Boltons and Tywin would have reasons for knocking her and her child off. On the other hand the child could have been married off to one of the kids that Bolton could have with Fat Walda and cement the claim. Of course Tywin wants Tyrions children through Sansa to get the North. It would have made more sense to keep her alive, Robbs kid would have a better claim than Sansa or any of the other kids. I suppose Tywin will let us know if her family had any political importance. In the books he wanted Cat to be kept alive, all this business with killing wives and children is not good for the families image at a certian point.

I see Jeyne in the books and this Talissa character as both being somewhat egnimatic. You have to sort of wonder if there is more there than meets the eye but perhaps there is not.

I don't have an opinion in favor or against the Talisa "spy or not a spy" theories, but just because she was killed at the RW doesn't mean she 100% wasn't a spy. There's no way she could survive the RW because she'd be a loose end that ties the whole plot back to the Lannisters. Currently Walder Frey looks to be the mastermind behind the attacks (book readers know it's Twyin, and tv people know because of the "Lannisters send the regards line, but in Westeros everyone assumes its the Freys). She can't be connected to Walder Frey because that makes no sense at all for him to plant her when Robb was already going to marry one of his daughters. Take out Walder Frey and all roads eventually lead back to Twyin Lannister. She messed up because she got pregnant, and then wrote a letter about to her mother. If you connect the Talisa/Jeyne storylines, Jeyne may have fallen in love with Robb, but her mom wasn't having any of it. What if Talisa did send a letter to her mom, which her mom then forwarded to Twyin? That would explain why she was stabbed in the belly. Of course I'm not accounting for time to send ravens to all these different places (not sure how much time passed between the letter and the RW). Her mom wouldn't have anticipated that they'd actually kill her though. Twyin would never agree to keep Robb's heir alive, because Robb was a king, which means his son is a king, and there can only be 1 king in Westeros.

On a side note, I'm not too upset about the change of Robb/Honor to Robb/Love because Love is just as powerful an character trait as honor is. Robb married Jeyne because he deflowered her, not because she was pregnant. Plus, he may say he married her to protect her honor, which is partly true, but he also did it because he fell in love with her. So I really don't think Book Robb and TV Robb are that far off

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On a side note, I'm not too upset about the change of Robb/Honor to Robb/Love because Love is just as powerful an character trait as honor is. Robb married Jeyne because he deflowered her, not because she was pregnant. Plus, he may say he married her to protect her honor, which is partly true, but he also did it because he fell in love with her. So I really don't think Book Robb and TV Robb are that far off

I pretty much agree with this. My gripe is that they cut out the honor part though. Show Robb, IMO feels a bit more selfish in how they portrayed his reasoning to get married. I.e the scene with him and Cat talking about how he shouldn't break the oath just for love. The way he acted felt selfish. If they would have done love as well as honor, I don't think he would have came off that way so much. But that's just my two cents.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

One thing I was wondering about the Talisa storyline, actually, was if they made Robb's wife come from Volantis in order to create a narrative shortcut so that when we do arrive in Volantis, we will already have some ideas about the culture, etc. - and won't need to have those explained to us as viewers. What I mean is that if we see some guy with a fish tattoo, we'll already know what that means, and we won't need to take time out from the plot for Jorah or Tyrion or somebody else to explain it to us.

Otherwise, I could not really think of a reason for having her come from Volantis... though the idea that her family could become significant later in Essos is an interesting one.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×