Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

LordStoneheart

[Book Spoilers] Volantis and Talisa

Recommended Posts

Her being at the wedding was what finally convinced me that TV!Robb is a moron and had his death coming. I mean really.

On topic: so what if Volantis remembers? The Free Cities are pretty isolationist as far as I can tell.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Her being at the wedding was what finally convinced me that TV!Robb is a moron and had his death coming. I mean really.

On topic: so what if Volantis remembers? The Free Cities are pretty isolationist as far as I can tell.

IDK, Volantis helped Aegon land in Westeros, the GC had to pay the ships to take them but still. The Iron Bank of Braavos is about to back Stannis. A Magister of Pentos, Illryio, has been plotting to oust the current occupants of the Iron Throne since the beginning of the book. So they have not gotten directly involved yet but they are not nuetral in the strict sense and their involvement seems to be growing. In ACOK Tyrion sends Myrcella to Dorne via Braavos because he beleives that Stannis would not try to take her if she was on Braavosi ship because it might draw the Braavosi into the war against him. Keeping that in mind, if the Tommen regime is stupid enough to retaliate against the Braavosi for loaning money to Stannis by attacking their shipping for instance it could very well draw them into the war openly on Stannis' side. Illryio might feel he has to counter this by somehow drawing Pentos into the war on Aegons side. A lot of peopkle in Volantis and probaly Essos think Dany is the worlds savior. If Dany overthrows the aristocracy in Volantis they could end up openly backing her probaly with ships and R'hollor fanatic types. So i think this nuetrality or isolationism is probaly coming to an end in the next book.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I was absolutely horrified by how the Talisa storyline got resolved. Not just because the violence was so gruesome, over-the-top, and unnecessary. But because now it really just seems cheap and arbitrary that they changed the character so much.

I think arbitrary changes are becoming the hallmark of the producers of the TV show. I think her whole character was created merely to add shock value to the RW. They wasted so much TV time that could've been devoted to better subplots of the book establishing a character whose only purpose was to take the violence to eleven in the RW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I find it ridiculous that Volantis wouldn't respond in some way to Talisa's death, regardless of what story they believe. I wasn't a big fan of bringing Talisa into the storyline, but I think it would be interesting as far as the show is concerned. They probably won't side with Dany or the North, but they definitely would want revenge against the Lannisters. Even if it means they cut off their trading.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You don't just murder a Maegyr of Volantis at a wedding and get away with it. I would be shocked if Talisa's storyline goes away. When she is first introduced to Catelyn, Talisa indicates that her name carries weight back in her mother country. Other than the name, the show hasn't given any indication that Talisa is related to Malaquo Maegyr, one of the ruling Triarch's of Volantis, but you have to assume they're related. While Malaquo Maegyr has plans of dethroning Daenerys in the novels, it's not too farfetched to envision the show diverging from the books here. GRRM himself suggested the surname Maegyr for Talisa's character. In the show canon, we know that Talisa deplores slavery. I don't think bit of her backstory was added as merely an aside. In the show, there could be a future alliance between Daenerys and Volantis based on mutual interest. Volantis wants Daenerys out of Essos and Volantis wants revenge for the murder of Talisa. Daenerys wants to invade Westeros and could use the help from Volantis. The anti-slavery connection between Talisa and Daenerys would be a good way for Volantis to appeal to Daenerys moral interests. Farfetched, yes, but not logically divergent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I reckon Talisa's Volantis connection was only really there to give the show an op to explain another ASOIAF culture to the viewer. She introduced the concept of slavery in Essos, which became really important in S3, and is a nice nod to readers who have already been introduced to Volantis. It also meant the character had no connections to characters in Westeros that could have been confusing for book readers and TV viewers alike. And it meant that we categorically knew she wasn't meant to be Jeyne Westerling.

Personally, I didn't mind Talisa, and I completely get why they changed the character - Jeyne is a bit of a non-entity and the stuff with her mother and the fertility is needlessly complex for TV. Since we never get a POV from Robb in the books we don't really know what portion of his betrayal of the Freys was for honour and what for love. Even if 'honour' is the reason he gives to his mother ;).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Her being at the wedding was what finally convinced me that TV!Robb is a moron and had his death coming. I mean really.

mh? Why he's a moron? :mellow: In the books Cat convinced him to leave Jeyne at Riverrun just because she didn't trust Robb to keep his control if Walder Frey insulted her but, as she said in her POV, the Queen absence as much as her presence could have been perceived by the old man as a slight.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

mh? Why he's a moron? :mellow: In the books Cat convinced him to leave Jeyne at Riverrun just because she didn't trust Robb to keep his control if Walder Frey insulted her but, as she said in her POV, the Queen absence as much as her presence could have been perceived by the old man as a slight.

You can never please late lord Frey, I think it's also who the person is both the offender and offended. if it was tywin or even ned(he wouldn't betray his word) wouldn't hide his wife, hiding her looks as tho you regret or afraid of others reaction.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We know so little of Talisa that it's hard to say what the consequences of her death will be. Are the Maegyr's even players in the shows world? Is she a minor noble? Coudl be she will just be a character whose death is of no consequence but maybe D&D know Martin is trying to find a way to work Volantis into the Westeros storyline. Upshot is, I don't really have a clue!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope not

I want Talisa's existence to just be erased. All of it.

I can't stand her character and story line

This. Should have just left her as Jeyne Westerling and be done with it. Her and The Blackfish both should have been left at Riverrun and Robb's Will should have been mentioned. In the books Robb knew his time was running out.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hated Jeyne in the books. Found her and the Westerlings terribly boring. I never understood why Robb would fall for a mousy girl like her. Just didn't make sense for him to throw away his alliance with House Frey over some shy, drippy girl. While I don't think Talisa was that big of an improvement, I do like that they gave her more character than Jeyne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

GRRM gave Talisa the surname Maegyr for a reason. House Maegyr is one of the most powerful families in Volantis. There has to be a reason why GRRM distinctly chose THAT surname for her. It is not out of the spectrum of possibility to expect a Volantene backlash from this. How that will happen is still to be determined, but I figure Talisa's death will come back into the storyline down the road.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hated Jeyne in the books. Found her and the Westerlings terribly boring. I never understood why Robb would fall for a mousy girl like her. Just didn't make sense for him to throw away his alliance with House Frey over some shy, drippy girl. While I don't think Talisa was that big of an improvement, I do like that they gave her more character than Jeyne.

Wasn't that part of the point, that was hammered home when Jamie meets her and thinks she's nothing special, nothing to lose your kingdom and life over?

....That she wasn't a great beauty, or very inteligent, I thought she came off as close to stupid in the book....that was part of the tragedy, he marries her, not for beauty or an awesome queen life partner help mate like his mother became to his father, but because he took her virginity and felt honor bound to marry her. He lost it all for a few weak moments.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Same. Also, her being brought to the wedding made absolutely no sense since it was insulting to the Freys.

Either way it was insulting to the Freys - if she shows up, she is then showing up the family. If she doesn't show up, as in the books, the Freys can be insulted for not being able to see the young lady that Robb threw over a Frey for.

Either way, the Freys get what they want - another insult.

I'm not really a Talisa fan, but Jeyne was not such a great character either. Wouldn't the audience have thought Robb's marrying a Lannister bannerman's daughter was a little fishy too?

Not if it got introduced similar to the book - since they were not a hugely powerful house, switching that alliance may have made sense in that situation. If they had played it differently, that might have raised more alarms.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMO, the point of changing to Talisa was primarily so that she COULD go to the wedding and get hideously murdered (that and slimming down to get rid of the ultimately extraneous Westerling plot.). Tywin doesn't get quite as many "devious plan" points, but so what, show watchers have granted him "devious" status at this point and extra points would be wasted. The scene is more impactful this way, especially after the (wise) elimination of the "Cat and dying father @ Riverrun" arc.

It doesn't work for the Freys to murder Jeyne, since the Westerlings were in on the Red Wedding. Without the Westerlings, D&D are free to make that change w/o upsetting anything else. It's also faster since D&D don't have to move Robb to the Crag and back,

That she's from Volantis mostly means that she does NOT have strings attached...a noble Westerosi house would have to deal, in some way or another, with what the conspirators dealt them. Some foreign noble girl married to a traitor can be killed with relative impunity. And if she tells us that Volantis is some other place, along the way, great.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It could be argued that the only people who knew Talisa is a Maegyr died at the Red Wedding, aside from Roose Bolton, and who's he going to tell? So the Maegyr family back in Volantis aren't going to know anything for a long time.

I can't imagine that Talisa's family name, and her city of origin, were chosen in a vaccuum. So I think her murder will have further repercussions in a future season. The Volantines are in the story in the books. Talisa's appearance just puts them in the story earlier with a bit more of a connection to Westeros, and a lot more reason to want to go there and kick some arse. Depending on the political situation there if the Maegyr's aren't in charge when Volantis declares war on Dany, then Talisa's murder in Westeros gives the Maegyr's reason to seize power and then ally with Dany.

OMG I just had a horrible thought. What if they decide to make an unTalisa instead of an unCat? Michelle Fairley has spoken with such finality and emotion about leaving the show. But no one's interviewed Oona about leaving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has anyone mentioned that maybe George felt he made a mistake with Jeyne Westerling.

By this time in the story she has sort of vanished off page and GRRM planned never to put her back on stage again?

Last mention of her was in A Feast for Crows ... not sure we would even see her in the next two books.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If there is an UnTalisa I think I would have to honestly stop watching. That's just too crazy. That's worse than the idea of Ros replacing Jeyne Poole. I wouldn't believe anything that an actor says in an interview regarding their role. I remember mid-way during the last The Walking Dead season, there were interviews with lots of the actors/writers and a particular actor who swore their character was safe died a few episodes later, among all sorts of other things viewers should expect, and tons of them were totally fake. And they were very convincing in their interviews as well. Is it possible that UnCat could be all CGI....? I don't like that idea, more like asking if it's technically possible or cheaper than having Fairley stay around. I really don't know anything about the cost of CGI. Except it's very expensive.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If there is an UnTalisa I think I would have to honestly stop watching. That's just too crazy. That's worse than the idea of Ros replacing Jeyne Poole. I wouldn't believe anything that an actor says in an interview regarding their role. I remember mid-way during the last The Walking Dead season, there were interviews with lots of the actors/writers and a particular actor who swore their character was safe (and then died a few episodes later) among all sorts of other things viewers should expect, and tons of them were totally fake. And they were very convincing in their interviews as well. Is it possible that UnCat could be all CGI....? I don't like that idea, more like asking if it's technically possible or cheaper than having Fairley stay around.

:agree:

I seriously would consider it too. Talisa has screwed up enough of Robb and Cat's storyline that would be an abomination if she replaced Cat as LS. Michelle is a great actress and Oona just doesn't have the skill (compared to her) I'd much rather see Michelle on screen since we all know just how well she can pull it off and would do much better. Plus it doesn't make sense. Talisa hasn't lost nearly as much as Catelyn has. That poor woman has lost more than anyone should have to in their life and it would be cheap replacing her with Talisa just because that idiot (who doesn't even know where her husbands home is) just because she lost ONE child and a husband.

I don't see why anyone can support this theory. It's as bad as Talisa replacing Fake Arya. Or Ros replacing Jeyne Poole.

I'd think it's cheaper using Michelle than cgi. They've used so little of the wolves (and not much more appearances of the dragons) that I'd bet my life it's better keeping the actress than cgi.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought her death (while preggers) was way over the top and unnecessary, and a book deviation that also creates a bit of a plot hole.

Jeyne Westerling still carries Robb's baby at RIverrun, yes? Or was it Seaguard?

"Over the top and unnecessary". The whole fucking thing is over the top and unnecessary. If it had been in the books you'd not give it a second thought. It was brutal, but fine in the context of things.

No, she doesn't. That theory is (almost definitely) false.

That potential plot hole is, in the words of Joe Biden, a BFD. The storyline hasn't progressed far enough to say much more than it is a viable theory, and the degree of gusto you rebuke it with has no merit. (spoilers for AFfC here)

I could accept that GRRM simple made a mistake describing Jeyne if the problem was only in the description of her hips, but describing her from Jaime's PoV as more girlish than womanly, plus omitting her younger sister from the train of Westerlings leaving Riverrun for Casterly Rock, make this a very plausible theory. Jaime assumed that her clothes were torn out of mourning, but it is also possible that she tore them to hid an ill fit. Finally, how is it that her mother never gave Jaime the traitor's crown "Jeyne" got all scratched up defending? Could it be that the crown was no longer in Riverrun?

GRRM is a master of foreshadowing. In the Samwell PoV after Jaime gets Edmure to surrender Riverrun Sam sees acolytes helping an old man, a young woman and a baby onto a bout heading out to the Bloody Isle. If that truly was nothing more than just an old guy and a young mother, a good editor would have cut it out, claiming the book is getting long and this paragraph is superfluous. GRRM would have had to defend keeping this paragraph in the book. Samwell has had chance encounters with Bran and Arya already, it is no great stretch to think Sam just had a chance encounter with another Stark.

And the Talisa-lovers, aka, grumpkins and snarks, can defend her.

>.< Some people believe grumpkins and snarks may actually exist. There are no such claims about the existence of Talisa-lovers

Sometimes .. it just feels that people are anti-Talisa for the simple reason that she replaced Jeyne in the books & that it brought a conclusion to a lot of Theories & stuff ... I would have been truly upset if there was a replacement of the character 'HAD THE SHOW BEEN NOT CONNECTED with GRRM .. But since GRRM who obviously has a hand over the mythos of this Saga considers Talisa as appropriate .. I am fine with it .

This episode ( of all other episodes ) .. was the most important one for G.R.R.M. & for the show creators as well ... I mean they literally brought the rights of the show to execute these 10 minutes .... It obviously was with the approval of GRRM .

For people who consider her story line ridiculous ... I doubt it was more ridiculous than Robb falling in love with a low Lannister house ... and his in-laws plotting with Lannister to kill their son-in-law who is a king & their unborn grandson/daughter who might be the next big shot ... They would be doing everything detrimental to them .!!

Robb did not fall in love with girl from a low Lannister house. he made a mistake in grief and soiled a noble maiden. Rather than leave her dishonored, he dishonored himself. Why? Because he is Ned Stark's son. In time they grew to genuinely love each other, but Robb did NOT marry her out of love.

I think arbitrary changes are becoming the hallmark of the producers of the TV show. I think her whole character was created merely to add shock value to the RW. They wasted so much TV time that could've been devoted to better subplots of the book establishing a character whose only purpose was to take the violence to eleven in the RW.

QFT

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×