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LordStoneheart

[Book Spoilers] Volantis and Talisa

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George has said that all the small changes have huge implications for future events on the TV series. He still feels it is his story though. I think this means that the TV series will have several differences from now on. It is still enjoyable to be honest. If you've ever read Walking Dead comics, there are huge changes on the show and it only diminishes the story if you let it.

Talisa's death was more intense than i ever could of have imagined the red wedding to be (balanced out by bolton's lame stabbing). When I thought the red wedding couldn't be even more intense they stab an unborn child. I look forward to any surprises the TV show may bring with the plot change. Maybe it's a red herring, whatever.

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Volantis will hire the Faceless Men to take their revenge. The Faceless Men will send their newest recruit.

And that recruit will be walking out the Temple of Black and White before Arya walks in!

:P

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Director says reaction from Volantis to RW is covered in Season Finale

http://on.aol.com/video/game-of-thrones-director-gives-clues-for-season-finale-517806638?hp=1&playlist=127164&icid=maing-grid7%7Cnetscape%7Cdl12%7Csec3_lnk2%26pLid%3D324283

There are two versions one where he says reaction of Stannis and Volantis. Another where is plays Stannis and Lannisters.

I don't really believe it unless it is recounted by varys or something.

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The two people most likely to be affected by the murder of Talisa Maegyr-Stark are Tyrion or Danaerys.

I could see Tyrion held captive in Volantis; he's expecting to be sent back to King's Landing for the reward. Triarch Maegyr confronts him about the RW and the Lannisters' part in it, all the while knowing Tyrion killed the architect of said event.

In the end, Triarch Maegyr sends him on to Dany on the condition that he advise her to move swiftly to Westeros and crush the Lannisters/Boltons/Freys. Of course getting Dany to abandon her anti-slavery crusade would still be more important to the Triarch than revenge. But perhaps the story of the young bride murdered with her unborn child might move Dany, considering how she lost Rhaego to treachery?

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Characters unsullied hate the most: Joffrey, Walder, Bolton, Ramsay etc.

Character book-fans hate the most: Talisa

I'm not sure if I understand ...

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Characters unsullied hate the most: Joffrey, Walder, Bolton, Ramsay etc.

Character book-fans hate the most: Talisa

I'm not sure if I understand ...

Well it's pretty simple. The first group is 'evil' while Talisa is a poorly written character. From what I've heard/read there's show viewers that dislike her too. Many people I've read say their unsullied friends either hate her/don't care about her. Then there's mine who actively hoped she would die (or at the very least disappear never to come on screen again.)

But it comes down to preference. Some like the modern/cliche/cheesy romance that is Robb and Talisa while others don't like the character that is obviously a slightly more 'fleshed out' plot device.

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If there is an UnTalisa I think I would have to honestly stop watching. That's just too crazy. That's worse than the idea of Ros replacing Jeyne Poole.

And what happened to Ros? Relax, show some doubt for these rumous ,wait few days and we are much wiser. Not the first or last bizarre storyline which ends up dead. Every once in a while we are cutting Coldhands or Oberyn Martell and now UnCat?

I didn't love Talisa, but her faith combined with Robb and Cat had an strong impact. I pity those who are not able to get over this Talisa-Jeyne move and are even happy how she met her end.

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And what happened to Ros? Relax, show some doubt for these rumous ,wait few days and we are much wiser. Not the first or last bizarre storyline which ends up dead. Every once in a while we are cutting Coldhands or Oberyn Martell and now UnCat?

I didn't love Talisa, but her faith combined with Robb and Cat had an strong impact. I pity those who are not able to get over this Talisa-Jeyne move and are even happy how she met her end.

I'm relaxed. I've actually said numerous times around the board that I think there's no need to fret of somewhat major minor characters not being cast, because every time people freak out they turn out to be cast. I also never believed that Ros would replace Jeyne Poole. I'm just saying I may quit the show if Talisa replaced Cat. That's it. I even said, "That's too crazy." Meaning, I don't think it will be happen.

You don't need to pity me. I would hate Talisa/Robb if I was only a television viewer; that's just how I am. So please, take your pity elsewhere.

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Well it's pretty simple. The first group is 'evil' while Talisa is a poorly written character. From what I've heard/read there's show viewers that dislike her too. Many people I've read say their unsullied friends either hate her/don't care about her. Then there's mine who actively hoped she would die (or at the very least disappear never to come on screen again.)

But it comes down to preference. Some like the modern/cliche/cheesy romance that is Robb and Talisa while others don't like the character that is obviously a slightly more 'fleshed out' plot device.

There's plenty of book people that didn't mind Talisa, or even liked the change, it's just that it has never been fashionable to say so. I agree, some show-only people also just don't care about her either way, but I would say mainly just because she's a 'side' character but doesn't have the luxury of being a 'cool' character as some side characters can be. And while they are schmoosing Robb isn't off killing Lannisters of course which everyone would have liked to have seen more of. I don't see this evidence for her being poorly written at all. Not exciting, but not poor.

And I think plenty of people did buy into their relationship. You act like people didn't fall in love in those times. Pretty sure they did - hardly makes it 'modern'. If you had to pick out one love/marriage story that is most 'normal' in the the show it would probably be Robb & Talisa (no incest, no forced marriage, lots of puppy dog eyes etc). Yes the circumstances and ramifications were extreme but their feelings for each other and the way it developed seemed quite par for the course to me, like nomal kids in love. What was cheesy about it really? Just that it was two people falling in love period?

Jon/Ygritte was far closer to the star-crossed lovers doomed to fail story than Robb/Talisa - and also Jon broke an important oath there too btw.

As mentioned upthread, as a plot device Talisa was much more useful that just to add extra horror to the wedding (which I think it did anyway), and certainly more useful than Jeyne would have been. She introduced/expanded the concepts of powerful Houses overseas, slavery, and of Volantis itself. Exactly what book moaners say the TV series needs more of, i.e. more detail, world building, backstory etc. But it seems only if mentioned by book characters, and ignored if by Talisa or Roz or non-cannon Shae.

I would also argue that there was a huge place for a this love story in the show anyway. Building up the idea that there was some future for a loving Stark family after this mess was over with. And more brutal to have it dashed. Honestly, love stories by themselves generally are not my thing, but as one small part of the whole show it certainly added more emotional weight to Robb's arc than it would have had otherwise.

I would add a choice to your 'comes down to preference' that some people can enjoy lots of different types of characters, situations and arcs within the same show, and imo the wide array of these in GoT is what is making it the massive hit that it is. In fact I would go further and say that losing some of these elements as the show progresses will be to its detriment - and certainly the books become less fun, and there's less love about, and there are even less people that you care about what happens to. It may work against the show unless they remain creative. You need people to invest in some of these characters, and plenty of people clearly had in Robb & Talisa's case - or did the internet not just explode?

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When did I say people actually couldn't fall in love at that time? What makes her modern and cliche IMO is how they did the plot (which Martin expressed his distaste for that sort of thing many years ago) of how a spunky girl goes back talking a king/royalty and said royalty just falls in love with them. In her introductory neither we nor Robb know she is highborn, and I'm pretty sure even highborn aren't stupid enough to back talk kings. If she had back talked anyone else; Joffrey, Tywin, Roose, Ramsy, and probably even Stannis she would have been punished for said things. But oh no, she happen stances across the one highborn who happens to like being emasculated by her downgrading and disrespecting him. That seems way to modern to me and also on the cliche side.

I'm sure there are some people who like or just don't have an opinion one way or the other about Talisa, it just seems, at least from what I've read/heard and who I've talked to, that the group who likes her is in the minority.

Honestly I'm sure people only cared for her death because it was so brutal. I don't see how people can actually like such an idiot and bimbo of a character. Honestly, this idiot is seen two or three times with her husband in season three where he's looking at maps and she hasn't once ever looked at said maps in curiosity to see where Winterfell, the place she will be living, is? That boggles my mind.

I don't really care for the Volantis build up myself, but maybe some people do. Tyrion could have easily introduced it without Talisa being in the show. All we learn from her is she loves her brother (who she turned around and left for whatever reasons to run half way across the world), about slaves which we already knew/know from Dany, and a small part of how (or more like why) she became a nurse. That's about it. Like I said, she's only a slightly more fleshed out plot device than Jeyne. (But much more annoying IMO)

But talking about what's wrong with Talisa as a character (and I didn't even get into the change of Robb's character or how she squirmed her way into taking scenes that would be much better on Cat. Cat definitely got the shit end of the stick in the change of the character) and how she is horribly written is like beating a dead horse, or like wasting my breath since people are just going to continue to argue about it no matter what is said. So I'll just end the post here since people will like what they like and if they want to delude themselves into thinking we need a modern-ish romance in a story that's not modern, then by all means that's their choice.

Eta; I'm glad you like the story. IMO the actors have no chemistry. The only time they seemed to have a little was in the RW episode during the gushy about to kiss and baby talk scene. So no I didn't see them as being in love at all. I only knew that they're supposed to be.

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That potential plot hole is, in the words of Joe Biden, a BFD. The storyline hasn't progressed far enough to say much more than it is a viable theory, and the degree of gusto you rebuke it with has no merit. (spoilers for AFfC here)

I could accept that GRRM simple made a mistake describing Jeyne if the problem was only in the description of her hips, but describing her from Jaime's PoV as more girlish than womanly, plus omitting her younger sister from the train of Westerlings leaving Riverrun for Casterly Rock, make this a very plausible theory. Jaime assumed that her clothes were torn out of mourning, but it is also possible that she tore them to hid an ill fit. Finally, how is it that her mother never gave Jaime the traitor's crown "Jeyne" got all scratched up defending? Could it be that the crown was no longer in Riverrun?

GRRM is a master of foreshadowing. In the Samwell PoV after Jaime gets Edmure to surrender Riverrun Sam sees acolytes helping an old man, a young woman and a baby onto a bout heading out to the Bloody Isle. If that truly was nothing more than just an old guy and a young mother, a good editor would have cut it out, claiming the book is getting long and this paragraph is superfluous. GRRM would have had to defend keeping this paragraph in the book. Samwell has had chance encounters with Bran and Arya already, it is no great stretch to think Sam just had a chance encounter with another Stark.

>.< Some people believe grumpkins and snarks may actually exist. There are no such claims about the existence of Talisa-lovers

Robb did not fall in love with girl from a low Lannister house. he made a mistake in grief and soiled a noble maiden. Rather than leave her dishonored, he dishonored himself. Why? Because he is Ned Stark's son. In time they grew to genuinely love each other, but Robb did NOT marry her out of love.

QFT

Good post

It took a re-read a few months ago to start seeing the clues in the Westerling story-agree that it is not for nonce that it was subtly written into Jaimes POV

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When did I say people actually couldn't fall in love at that time? What makes her modern and cliche IMO is how they did the plot (which Martin expressed his distaste for that sort of thing many years ago) of how a spunky girl goes back talking a king/royalty and said royalty just falls in love with them. In her introductory neither we nor Robb know she is highborn, and I'm pretty sure even highborn aren't stupid enough to back talk kings. If she had back talked anyone else; Joffrey, Tywin, Roose, Ramsy, and probably even Stannis she would have been punished for said things. But oh no, she happen stances across the one highborn who happens to like being emasculated by her downgrading and disrespecting him. That seems way to modern to me and also on the cliche side.

I'm sure there are some people who like or just don't have an opinion one way or the other about Talisa, it just seems, at least from what I've read/heard and who I've talked to, that the group who likes her is in the minority.

Honestly I'm sure people only cared for her death because it was so brutal. I don't see how people can actually like such an idiot and bimbo of a character. Honestly, this idiot is seen two or three times with her husband in season three where he's looking at maps and she hasn't once ever looked at said maps in curiosity to see where Winterfell, the place she will be living, is? That boggles my mind.

I don't really care for the Volantis build up myself, but maybe some people do. Tyrion could have easily introduced it without Talisa being in the show. All we learn from her is she loves her brother (who she turned around and left for whatever reasons to run half way across the world), about slaves which we already knew/know from Dany, and a small part of how (or more like why) she became a nurse. That's about it. Like I said, she's only a slightly more fleshed out plot device than Jeyne. (But much more annoying IMO)

But talking about what's wrong with Talisa as a character (and I didn't even get into the change of Robb's character or how she squirmed her way into taking scenes that would be much better on Cat. Cat definitely got the shit end of the stick in the change of the character) and how she is horribly written is like beating a dead horse, or like wasting my breath since people are just going to continue to argue about it no matter what is said. So I'll just end the post here since people will like what they like and if they want to delude themselves into thinking we need a modern-ish romance in a story that's not modern, then by all means that's their choice.

Eta; I'm glad you like the story. IMO the actors have no chemistry. The only time they seemed to have a little was in the RW episode during the gushy about to kiss and baby talk scene. So no I didn't see them as being in love at all. I only knew that they're supposed to be.

I agree with this. I have no problems with shows having people that truly love each other. Hell, look at my icon. I really thought the love between Johnny Sack and his wife was pretty damn sweet. He was one of the very few guys on the show that didn't have a goomar. And I didn't find that cheesy. Like you mentioned, the cliche of some girl back talking a king is very cheesy and GRRM has expressed dislike for those kinds of relationships in fantasy in the past. It's not a type of a romance story he'd ever write. Also, David Benioff was the writer for the movie Troy. I was quite young when I saw it, but even then I hated how corny it was.

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I agree with this. I have no problems with shows having people that truly love each other. Hell, look at my icon. I really thought the love between Johnny Sack and his wife was pretty damn sweet. He was one of the very few guys on the show that didn't have a goomar. And I didn't find that cheesy. Like you mentioned, the cliche of some girl back talking a king is very cheesy and GRRM has expressed dislike for those kinds of relationships in fantasy in the past. It's not a type of a romance story he'd ever write. Also, David Benioff was the writer for the movie Troy. I was quite young when I saw it, but even then I hated how corny it was.

I think it just kind of shows the writers aren't good when it comes to completely veering from the books. There's many decent romance stories in shows/film that might be over done but are still able to work and people like. What they had going against them though was Martin already had a rich story full of fascinating characters and then to just change one makes her almost immediately look odd and out of place. (At least that's my impression because my unsullied friend said something along the lines of her seeming to not quite fit in the world. Which I think speaks volumes if there are some unsullied even saying this.) Plus the fact that George expresses distaste for that sort of story in fantasy, it feels like D&D did that as a big fuck you to him.

I never saw the movie Troy, actually, even though I think my father loved those sort of movies. I think I might have tried to watch it once but I just couldn't get into it.

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Characters unsullied hate the most: Joffrey, Walder, Bolton, Ramsay etc.

Character book-fans hate the most: Talisa

I'm not sure if I understand ...

Easy

Talisa was not in the books

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Easy

Talisa was not in the books

It's not as simple as that. Personally, my reasoning is a lot more than just 'oh not in the books so I hate her immediately.' But I've already stated them numerous times so there's no point to keep doing so.

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It's not as simple as that. Personally, my reasoning is a lot more than just 'oh not in the books so I hate her immediately.' But I've already stated them numerous times so there's no point to keep doing so.

I personally disliked the whole Talisa storyline so was just pointing out to the poster of that question the most visible difference between the 2 groups of characters

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I personally disliked the whole Talisa storyline so was just pointing out to the poster of that question the most visible difference between the 2 groups of characters

Aah okay. Sorry. When I read that I thought you were immediately saying that everyone who hates or dislikes her only does so because she isn't in the books.

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Plus the fact that George expresses distaste for that sort of story in fantasy, it feels like D&D did that as a big fuck you to him.

I'm assuming you're being facetious. David and Dan are two of the biggest fanboys around, and I doubt they're going out of their way to try and step on George's toes.

I didn't mind Talisa. Actually, I don't really feel strongly about her character one way or the other. I actually find it interesting that so many dislike her when the character she replaced was so unbelievably vacant of character. I also don't know why Talisa is considered to be a cliche, while someone like Arya -- the same mouthy "strong" female archetype -- is loved by us all. I'm not grasping the difference. Is it because Arya is a child and Talisa is a woman? But, if that's so, don't we expect Arya to grow up into that same ballsy type of chick? Isn't that what we all want?

Moreover, it even makes sense that Robb would gravitate towards that type of woman, growing up under the same roof as Arya. While many might look down at a woman who showcases "She-Wolf" tendencies, Robb would be the type to see it as a comfort and reminder of home.

I never understood why Talisa is considered to be a fantasy cliche in a world with Arya and Martell women. Shit, the Sand Snakes are like bonafide Charlie's Angels, each with their own specific talent for killing.

For me, it always goes back to the premise that anyone not created by GRRM is looked upon with extreme prejudice.

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I'm assuming you're being facetious. David and Dan are two of the biggest fanboys around, and I doubt they're going out of their way to try and step on George's toes.

I didn't mind Talisa. Actually, I don't really feel strongly about her character one way or the other. I actually find it interesting that so many dislike her when the character she replaced was so unbelievably vacant of character. I also don't know why Talisa is considered to be a cliche, while someone like Arya -- the same mouthy "strong" female archetype -- is loved by us all. I'm not grasping the difference. Is it because Arya is a child and Talisa is a woman? But, if that's so, don't we expect Arya to grow up into that same ballsy type of chick? Isn't that what we all want?

Moreover, it even makes sense that Robb would gravitate towards that type of woman, growing up under the same roof as Arya. While many might look down at a woman who showcases "She-Wolf" tendencies, Robb would be the type to see it as a comfort and reminder of home.

I never understood why Talisa is considered to be a fantasy cliche in a world with Arya and Martell women. Shit, the Sand Snakes are like bonafide Charlie's Angels, each with their own specific talent for killing.

For me, it always goes back to the premise that anyone not created by GRRM is looked upon with extreme prejudice.

Seeing as its stated many, many, many times in this site why Talisa is considered cliche I suggest just looking around. It honestly won't be hard to find posts to why. I even stated some of them in my post but you just ignored them and talked about how the writers aren't likely trying to step on the authors toes.

Okay that's extremely creepy. Just because Arya is a tomboy Robb will immediately love someone who acts like her? I find that a weird suggestion. If we go by that logic he could just as easily love a sweet, shy, caring girl (ahem Jeyne) like how his sister Sansa acts. And aside from that Arya isn't a complete idiot. If you read the books, well then you know she acts how she needs to to survive. (Like at Harrenhal with Bolton's men) whereas Talisa doesn't know these people in Westeros and yet she questions them without even a second thought to possibly getting punished. Talk about stupid.

I get the feeling that you, and others, just like to ignore all the posts people make about what's wrong with Talisa as a character (since it's discussed so much and is beaten like a dead horse) and just immediately proclaim us that dislike her as book purists when that's not always the case. I actually like some of the show changes. In all honesty she's one of the only changes that I truly hate/despise.

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