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LordStoneheart

[Book Spoilers] Volantis and Talisa

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Seeing as its stated many, many, many times in this site why Talisa is considered cliche I suggest just looking around. It honestly won't be hard to find posts to why. I even stated some of them in my post but you just ignored them and talked about how the writers aren't likely trying to step on the authors toes.

Okay that's extremely creepy. Just because Arya is a tomboy Robb will immediately love someone who acts like her? I find that a weird suggestion. If we go by that logic he could just as easily love a sweet, shy, caring girl (ahem Jeyne) like how his sister Sansa acts. And aside from that Arya isn't a complete idiot. If you read the books, well then you know she acts how she needs to to survive. (Like at Harrenhal with Bolton's men) whereas Talisa doesn't know these people in Westeros and yet she questions them without even a second thought to possibly getting punished. Talk about stupid.

I get the feeling that you, and others, just like to ignore all the posts people make about what's wrong with Talisa as a character (since it's discussed so much and is beaten like a dead horse) and just immediately proclaim us that dislike her as book purists when that's not always the case. I actually like some of the show changes. In all honesty she's one of the only changes that I truly hate/despise.

Defensive, no?

The fact that I pointed out that I never understood the reasoning behind Talisa-hate based on the premise of her being a cliche would imply that I've seen the posts around the forum and don't need to look around. I'm addressing the dislike of Talisa based on the thesis that she's too cliche to exist in Martin's world. Also, I read your posts, thoroughly. Did you not respond to a post in which the poster called Talisa's boldness toward Robb the basis for a cliche romance? And, then you proceeded to agree, stating you feel D&D did this on purpose to disrespect GRRM for something...I'm not sure what.

I thought I touched on your points. Forgive me if I missed something.

As for Arya, you attached the creepiness. My basis for the comparison was how Jon felt Alys Karstark was a kindred spirit based on the premise that she seemed like Arya. My only intent was to point out that Starks are used to mouthy women, so the idea of an upstart foreigner challenging something King Robb says isn't likely to phase him -- it's more likely to intrigue him.

I'm not President of the Talisa fanclub, so the projecting is a little much. Sorry.

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Defensive, no?

The fact that I pointed out that I never understood the reasoning behind Talisa-hate based on the premise of her being a cliche would imply that I've seen the posts around the forum and don't need to look around. I'm addressing the dislike of Talisa based on the thesis that she's too cliche to exist in Martin's world. Also, I read your posts, thoroughly. Did you not respond to a post in which the poster called Talisa's boldness toward Robb the basis for a cliche romance? And, then you proceeded to agree, stating you feel D&D did this on purpose to disrespect GRRM for something...I'm not sure what.

I thought I touched on your points. Forgive me if I missed something.

As for Arya, you attached the creepiness. My basis for the comparison was how Jon felt Alys Karstark was a kindred spirit based on the premise that she seemed like Arya. My only intent was to point out that Starks are used to mouthy women, so the idea of an upstart foreigner challenging something King Robb says isn't likely to phase him -- it's more likely to intrigue him.

I'm not President of the Talisa fanclub, so the projecting is a little much. Sorry.

I'm a little confused on your part of my saying about boldness and then agreeing what the writers did was to step on Martin's toes. They weren't exactly the same thing. Yes I think some nobody (at the time we meet her) back was sing a king is rather cliche and quite frankly overdone. My point o talking about D&D was saying I felt like they choose this plot as a fuck you to Martin, was because years ago he discussed his dislike for those sorts of fantasy storylines. If your such big lovers of the author like those two claim to be, why exactly would they pick the sort of plot that Martin is said to not like and steers clear of? That's what I was getting at.

I don't think Robb couldn't necessarily like a girl that's like Arya, I just think they way they went about this arc made it rather modern and cliche IMO. But the fact so many girls in the show are bad ass just makes me think the writers can't write meek/nice characters like Jeyne and Sansa. (Hence why Sansa is seemingly butchered according to many people's opinion). I don't see what's wrong with a few more female characters that are like Cat and Sansa.

Personally I don't see why they did such a drastic change. (Which is another reason to why I dislike her.) What's wrong with keeping her from Westeros but changing the family she's from (like maybe from the Riverlands) if one of their reasons was to change the daughter of an enemy bannermen part.

I just think it's funny because in fact seemingly so many people think she's cliche, and so many think she's a bit to modern for the show, and there's some unsullied that think she doesn't look to fit into the GoT sort of world but yet no one can accept that she is modern and cliche. (This isn't directed at you but in general.) I just wish people would admit that they like her for that reason rather than keep saying she isn't those things. Maybe she wouldn't seem that way if the writing had been better.. I don't know. But when I have unsullied having the same sort of opinion I do, and they don't even know of the change (or they know of the change but haven't read the book to really capture the difference), that kind of shows to me that a lot of what's said against the character is in fact true.

That's just my opinion anyway. I don't come across nearly as many people that actually like her or care much for her so that just kind of adds to my thinking.

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George has said that all the small changes have huge implications for future events on the TV series. He still feels it is his story though. I think this means that the TV series will have several differences from now on. It is still enjoyable to be honest. If you've ever read Walking Dead comics, there are huge changes on the show and it only diminishes the story if you let it.

Talisa's death was more intense than i ever could of have imagined the red wedding to be (balanced out by bolton's lame stabbing). When I thought the red wedding couldn't be even more intense they stab an unborn child. I look forward to any surprises the TV show may bring with the plot change. Maybe it's a red herring, whatever.

No one seems to mention that George (seemed) to know about the change, from the get go, and hence his invention of Talisa.

Because D and D must have run through their version of the RW with him ... they may have been going to have Jeyne Westerling at the RW and George made a substitution.

Makes one wonder if GRRM will ever mention Westerling ever again in the books?

As far as I know D and D have never been asked about their inventions, but George may , someday tell us.

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I'm a little confused on your part of my saying about boldness and then agreeing what the writers did was to step on Martin's toes. They weren't exactly the same thing. Yes I think some nobody (at the time we meet her) back was sing a king is rather cliche and quite frankly overdone. My point o talking about D&D was saying I felt like they choose this plot as a fuck you to Martin, was because years ago he discussed his dislike for those sorts of fantasy storylines. If your such big lovers of the author like those two claim to be, why exactly would they pick the sort of plot that Martin is said to not like and steers clear of? That's what I was getting at.

I don't think Robb couldn't necessarily like a girl that's like Arya, I just think they way they went about this arc made it rather modern and cliche IMO. But the fact so many girls in the show are bad ass just makes me think the writers can't write meek/nice characters like Jeyne and Sansa. (Hence why Sansa is seemingly butchered according to many people's opinion). I don't see what's wrong with a few more female characters that are like Cat and Sansa.

Personally I don't see why they did such a drastic change. (Which is another reason to why I dislike her.) What's wrong with keeping her from Westeros but changing the family she's from (like maybe from the Riverlands) if one of their reasons was to change the daughter of an enemy bannermen part.

I just think it's funny because in fact seemingly so many people think she's cliche, and so many think she's a bit to modern for the show, and there's some unsullied that think she doesn't look to fit into the GoT sort of world but yet no one can accept that she is modern and cliche. (This isn't directed at you but in general.) I just wish people would admit that they like her for that reason rather than keep saying she isn't those things. Maybe she wouldn't seem that way if the writing had been better.. I don't know. But when I have unsullied having the same sort of opinion I do, and they don't even know of the change (or they know of the change but haven't read the book to really capture the difference), that kind of shows to me that a lot of what's said against the character is in fact true.

That's just my opinion anyway. I don't come across nearly as many people that actually like her or care much for her so that just kind of adds to my thinking.

That's fair enough. I don't fault you for feeling that way. Actually, your statement about every woman on the show being portrayed as the "Destiny's Child/Independent Woman" archetype is interesting and something I never really considered. You're not wrong with that. I suppose the show could be helped with a more varied portrayal of its female characters. I think/hope Marge Tyrell may be the answer, as she's someone who has been shown to play this game in a more unique/subtle way, taking advantage of her standing rather than trying to rebel against it.

As for D&D, my only point was that I don't think we should all be so quick to vilify anything they do as a shot against GRRM. Are they perfect? Definitely not. But, I don't think any shortcomings or missteps they've had were intentional digs at George. I tend to be sympathetic towards them based on the fact that they're tasked with trying to accomplish an impossible job -- pleasing a very passionate Ice and Fire fanbase. I don't believe they begged George to adapt his baby just so they could purposefully do things to irritate him.

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No one seems to mention that George (seemed) to know about the change, from the get go, and hence his invention of Talisa.

Because D and D must have run through their version of the RW with him ... they may have been going to have Jeyne Westerling at the RW and George made a substitution.

Makes one wonder if GRRM will ever mention Westerling ever again in the books?

As far as I know D and D have never been asked about their inventions, but George may , someday tell us.

George didn't invent her. I'm sure he knew about her, but I don't think if he objected that meant they would have changed the character. From what Atia- said it sounds like he didn't care for this change. (Which I kind of figured he didn't since it embodied the type of plot he doesn't like in fantasy. I don't see why everyone thinks George invented Talisa. Maybe he didn't have a big plot in mind for the Westerlings in the future so he begrudgingly allowed them the change in character and didn't see it as hurting the plot for her to be killed? Or who knows maybe D&D screwed up and knew Jeyne would play a further part but still wanted to do the RW their way by having baby and momma killed there.

But from what he's said in the past about the sort of plot Robb/Talisa have, and what Atia- said to her question at an interview, I don't think he likes the change much.

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That's fair enough. I don't fault you for feeling that way. Actually, your statement about every woman on the show being portrayed as the "Destiny's Child/Independent Woman" archetype is interesting and something I never really considered. You're not wrong with that. I suppose the show could be helped with a more varied portrayal of its female characters. I think/hope Marge Tyrell may be the answer, as she's someone who has been shown to play this game in a more unique/subtle way, taking advantage of her standing rather than trying to rebel against it.

As for D&D, my only point was that I don't think we should all be so quick to vilify anything they do as a shot against GRRM. Are they perfect? Definitely not. But, I don't think any shortcomings or missteps they've had were intentional digs at George. I tend to be sympathetic towards them based on the fact that they're tasked with trying to accomplish an impossible job -- pleasing a very passionate Ice and Fire fanbase. I don't believe they begged George to adapt his baby just so they could purposefully do things to irritate him.

I hope maybe they might add more of a variety of female characters but I doubt it since the Greyjoys will be in next season as well as the Martells so it's very doubtful to me they will ever write a decent character that isn't a Dany/Arya/Breeine/etc type. I think part of that is another reason why I dislike the character is because she is exactly like pretty much everyone else. There's really nothing different about her. She's basically just another Shae IMO, (foreigner/back talks/strong willed/etc)

I'm not saying they purposely try to do every change to screw up the story, and I'm sorry if it comes off like I hate D&D because I don't. I still like the show for what it is. It just seems shitty when they made a change like that despite the fact it's the sort of love story Martin doesn't like. Plus their clear favoritism of certain characters is frustrating. But I still think they do a good job despite that. It's doubtful we'll ever get another adaption (ever) so it's not like we'll ever have anything to compare it to, so it's just nice to see that there is a show. For the most part I'm quite happy for what it is and also because of the fact it introduced me to the series. (Since I didn't read until after season one.)

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I don't know if someone presented this possibility or not, awful much to read, but hasn't anyone else thought of talisa being from volantis being a plot device to get arya back to westoros after becoming a faceless wo/man. I mean she never met walder frey so technically she could deliver him the gift and all, and I'm sure everyone knows in grrms world that fm r the best assassins.

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George didn't invent her. I'm sure he knew about her, but I don't think if he objected that meant they would have changed the character. From what Atia- said it sounds like he didn't care for this change. (Which I kind of figured he didn't since it embodied the type of plot he doesn't like in fantasy. I don't see why everyone thinks George invented Talisa. Maybe he didn't have a big plot in mind for the Westerlings in the future so he begrudgingly allowed them the change in character and didn't see it as hurting the plot for her to be killed? Or who knows maybe D&D screwed up and knew Jeyne would play a further part but still wanted to do the RW their way by having baby and momma killed there.

But from what he's said in the past about the sort of plot Robb/Talisa have, and what Atia- said to her question at an interview, I don't think he likes the change much.

From the way he was talking it was quite clear the only involvement he had was choosing her name. He said nothing positive nor negative regarding Talisa or Chaplin. And like I mentioned earlier, he even said, "I guess they thought she was a better character." It didn't sound at all like he had an active role in replacing Jeyne with Talisa. Otherwise, he probably would have said that.

And it's a ridiculous notion when people assume that any book reader who hates Talisa or the Talisa/Robb relationship is being a "stupid book purist." I am 100% positive I would hate their relationship even if I've never read the books.

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From the way he was talking it was quite clear the only involvement he had was choosing her name. He said nothing positive nor negative regarding Talisa or Chaplin. And Like I mentioned earlier, he even said, "I guess they thought she was a better character." It didn't sound at all like he had an active role in replacing Jeyne with Talisa. Otherwise, he probably would have said that.

And it's a ridiculous notion when people assume that any book reader who hates Talisa or the Talisa/Robb relationship is being a "stupid book purist." I am 100% positive I would hate their relationship even if I've never read the books.

Even though I wasn't there I had the impression he probably only had involvement in choosing her name. I seriously doubted he would be involved in a plot line like that when he doesn't like those sort of things. I'm honestly not surprised he said nothing either way about Oona or Talisa. Even though he dislikes the change (which I'm pretty confident he does) it would look rather bad for him to dog either the character or actress. So I don't blame him for not coming right out and claiming his dislike, but I think your quote of what he said speaks volumes to what he thinks of the change and doesn't care for t.

I agree. I hate that people throw out that label for disliking the change. It's like the only one I really hate out of everything that's been changed. Sure there's some changes I was disappointed in, but none I hate nearly as much as Talisa. I'm quite confident I wouldn't have liked the change either. Especially because I hate the blank looks Oona gives in almost every scene she is in. Not to mention I'm almost one hundred percent sure I would still think the arc modern and cliche even if I hadn't read the books. (Especially since I know unsullied who think that.)

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Even though I wasn't there I had the impression he probably only had involvement in choosing her name. I seriously doubted he would be involved in a plot line like that when he doesn't like those sort of things. I'm honestly not surprised he said nothing either way about Oona or Talisa. Even though he dislikes the change (which I'm pretty confident he does) it would look rather bad for him to dog either the character or actress. So I don't blame him for not coming right out and claiming his dislike, but I think your quote of what he said speaks volumes to what he thinks of the change and doesn't care for t.

I agree. I hate that people throw out that label for disliking the change. It's like the only one I really hate out of everything that's been changed. Sure there's some changes I was disappointed in, but none I hate nearly as much as Talisa. I'm quite confident I wouldn't have liked the change either. Especially because I hate the blank looks Oona gives in almost every scene she is in. Not to mention I'm almost one hundred percent sure I would still think the arc modern and cliche even if I hadn't read the books. (Especially since I know unsullied who think that.)

Not quite prepared to give a full-throated defense of Talisa here, but I will defend her Volantis monologue as being borderline great. History has always had people whose consciousness did not align with their time or environment.

The slave saving her brother was a convincing epiphany that allowed her to see slaves as people like her, and by extension seeing no real difference between herself and a king. Yes, this seems modern, but there are precedents in history (particularly in religious movements) of these kinds of sentiments.

Robb, having grown up relatively sheltered at Winterfell, and looking for something to set him apart as a different kind of King, was attracted to this. I think it's awfully reductive to just call her a sass-talker.

That said, Oona's acting did not have the greatest range, and several scenes felt like real time-wasters, so I understand the frustration.

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Not quite prepared to give a full-throated defense of Talisa here, but I will defend her Volantis monologue as being borderline great. History has always had people whose consciousness did not align with their time or environment.

The slave saving her brother was a convincing epiphany that allowed her to see slaves as people like her, and by extension seeing no real difference between herself and a king. Yes, this seems modern, but there are precedents in history (particularly in religious movements) of these kinds of sentiments.

Robb, having grown up relatively sheltered at Winterfell, and looking for something to set him apart as a different kind of King, was attracted to this. I think it's awfully reductive to just call her a sass-talker.

That said, Oona's acting did not have the greatest range, and several scenes felt like real time-wasters, so I understand the frustration.

I'm not really going to argue much against the scene because I didn't really like it or hate it. But to me it matters little the way she's back talking a king, because it shows how seriously stupid she is. Why would she do this if she knows how slaves are treated across the seas? Obviously Westeros doesn't allow slavery, but surely they've in Volantis how Westerosi are and she must have enough common sense to know its not smart to do such things in a forgein land where her name and presence hold very little matter to the lords and kings.

But then again the writing has made this character an idiot from the very beginning so what's the point in arguing her stupidity? This is the same person around maps all the time but doesn't even look to see where Winterfell is, the place she would be living when the war is over.

Her sass talking is still rather modern and cliche IMO. It's just the type of story Martin doesn't like in fantasy. 'Girl back talks royalty and the royalty falls for her' it's very.. (I don't want to be repetitive) but very blah and uncreative. As I mentioned above its very frustrating to only have all these bad ass characters which is basically what they made Talisa. What's wrong with having simple/nice/sweet girls? Clearly they can't write those sort of characters and that's why Sansa is pretty much butchered. It's annoying to me they couldn't have kept Jeyne (but tweaked things to make it more about love) and have kept her basically this nice girl Robb ends up falling for (even though the reasoning the married wasn't love). But no instead with basically get another Dany, Breenie, Arya, Yara, Martell, type female. It becomes very tedious. Not to mention the fact Talisa is very bland and basically all she is, is this back talking nurse who's against slavery. There's nothing that much deeper to her.

So I don't think it's the matter of why she sass talks but the very fact she does in the first place. (At least to me. Because I don't care about this character or why since the very fact that she does these things is modern) And she's very dim witted. I'm sorry but I just can't like a character that boring and cliche.

Perhaps a different actress might have helped this character, I don't know. I just know, putting the writing aside and how bad/and horrible my opinion is of that, Oona really did nothing to help. She looks so blank faced to me almost all of the time and I couldn't enjoy hardly any scene she was in which is a shame because Michelle and Madden are good actors.

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I'm not really going to argue much against the scene because I didn't really like it or hate it. But to me it matters little the way she's back talking a king, because it shows how seriously stupid she is. Why would she do this if she knows how slaves are treated across the seas? Obviously Westeros doesn't allow slavery, but surely they've in Volantis how Westerosi are and she must have enough common sense to know its not smart to do such things in a forgein land where her name and presence hold very little matter to the lords and kings.

But then again the writing has made this character an idiot from the very beginning so what's the point in arguing her stupidity? This is the same person around maps all the time but doesn't even look to see where Winterfell is, the place she would be living when the war is over.

Her sass talking is still rather modern and cliche IMO. It's just the type of story Martin doesn't like in fantasy. 'Girl back talks royalty and the royalty falls for her' it's very.. (I don't want to be repetitive) but very blah and uncreative. As I mentioned above its very frustrating to only have all these bad ass characters which is basically what they made Talisa. What's wrong with having simple/nice/sweet girls? Clearly they can't write those sort of characters and that's why Sansa is pretty much butchered. It's annoying to me they couldn't have kept Jeyne (but tweaked things to make it more about love) and have kept her basically this nice girl Robb ends up falling for (even though the reasoning the married wasn't love). But no instead with basically get another Dany, Breenie, Arya, Yara, Martell, type female. It becomes very tedious. Not to mention the fact Talisa is very bland and basically all she is, is this back talking nurse who's against slavery. There's nothing that much deeper to her.

So I don't think it's the matter of why she sass talks but the very fact she does in the first place. (At least to me. Because I don't care about this character or why since the very fact that she does these things is modern) And she's very dim witted. I'm sorry but I just can't like a character that boring and cliche.

Perhaps a different actress might have helped this character, I don't know. I just know, putting the writing aside and how bad/and horrible my opinion is of that, Oona really did nothing to help. She looks so blank faced to me almost all of the time and I couldn't enjoy hardly any scene she was in which is a shame because Michelle and Madden are good actors.

I guess what I find puzzling is the strong preference for Jeyne who was kind of a non-character. The best I can say about Talisa is there's the germ of a good idea for a character there, but it never really developed. I found exactly two of her scenes convincing- her Volantis monologue and their initial consummation, and the Red Wedding. It's enough to make me feel bad that she's dead.

I take your point about the cliche, and even that- I could see a King that had grown bored of always getting his way and no one speaking their mind to be refreshed by honest talk, but not a king as green as Robb. He would still have some slight insecurity in his authority and the last thing he would find attractive is being challenge by a female of uncertain birth.

I do not find the female characters on GoT to be monotonous in the slightest, however. Give credit to D&D for some great original scenes with Margaery, for example. But Arya, Brienne and Dany are the same character? Do I really have to make an argument against that? (Ok, the Sandsnakes I always thought were kind of stupid/ one dimensional but that's all on GRRM.)

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I guess what I find puzzling is the strong preference for Jeyne who was kind of a non-character. The best I can say about Talisa is there's the germ of a good idea for a character there, but it never really developed. I found exactly two of her scenes convincing- her Volantis monologue and their initial consummation, and the Red Wedding. It's enough to make me feel bad that she's dead.

I take your point about the cliche, and even that- I could see a King that had grown bored of always getting his way and no one speaking their mind to be refreshed by honest talk, but not a king as green as Robb. He would still have some slight insecurity in his authority and the last thing he would find attractive is being challenge by a female of uncertain birth.

I do not find the female characters on GoT to be monotonous in the slightest, however. Give credit to D&D for some great original scenes with Margaery, for example. But Arya, Brienne and Dany are the same character? Do I really have to make an argument against that? (Ok, the Sandsnakes I always thought were kind of stupid/ one dimensional but that's all on GRRM.)

I don't have a strong preference for Jeyne. What I do think however is they would have been better to stick to the basis of that character and not create a completely new one. Talisa and Ros and great examples of their not so good writing changes. Or Dany's arc season two. So it's not that I prefer Jeyne, I just prefer good writing which Talisa is not. I found the monologue scene very boring to be quite frank even if it was a slightly more convincing scene than most else the actress did. The only one I actually found somewhat convincing was before the deaths in RW. She was way over the top and almost comical in her dying I noticed after the first viewing.

I can see your point about a king that's grown bored. I could even see a type like Renly not minding and maybe even finding amusing a woman questioning and speaking their mind. Robb, from what we saw in season one, didn't see like the type to take people questioning him lightly and actually like people challenging his authority. (Among the bit about being young and insecure like you mentioned.)

I do give them credit for good changes. I like watching Margaery and Oolena. I just think it's ridiculous there's people on here trying to crucify me for not liking Talisa and for having the reasons, that even some unsullied have. Because, as I've mentioned before, this is one of the very few changes I actually hate/dislike. I love Margaery, and I liked watching Oolena and Tywin, not to mention Arya and Tywin even if its disappointing they haven't shown much of a dark side to Arya. Are there gripes I have about certain changes? Sure. Are there some I might be a bit disappointed in but can understand why they did it? Yes. But there's none I really hate, except for this particular one. Her and Ros are just badly written (among other things) which makes me hate watching them.

But no I'm not at all saying they're one dimensional, I can see how it might come off that way but that's far from what I'm getting at. All I meant was those characters are fighting/bad ass/ don't take any shit types. Is that fair enough of a assessment between them? And they threw Talisa right into that category because the writers just can't seem to write a decent female character that doesn't fall into that archetype. That's all I meant. I love Arya and Dany and I definitely don't think they're flat or one deminsional, but they are both the typical speak your mind type. And I don't know about you but it would be refreshing to me to get another character that is like Sansa but that they can actually do a decent job with.

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The trouble is there is barely a love story out there that you can't call a cliche. Or at least compare to an existing theme that has been used over and over. And this includes a lot that GRRM wrote or that GoT has based theirs on.

What cliched romances could these relate to?

West Side Story/Romeo and Juliet (hint: Star-crossed lover from different sides of the wall, er tracks, find true love against all the odds despite their families being in a bitter fued. Ends badly. Actually, at least two fall into this category, with one likely to end badly).

Pretty Woman/Arthur (hint: Lively working girl falls for a rich guy bored with life who has given up on true love and sleeps with prostitutes. But rich guy falls for working girl and her sassy ways, and finds some joy in life again.

The King and I (hint: Away from home western woman finds that a harsh eastern ruler has an hitherto unknown tender side, and he falls for the western woman with her kindness and strange notions).

Macbeth: (hint: Ambitious wife gives her husband ideas of grabbing power. Initially reluctant, the husband is won over and attempts to claim the throne. Ends badly).

Cyrano de Bergerac/Roxanne (hint: Unloved guy falls for pretty girl who he thinks is out of his league, but she can see beyond the nose (or fat coward) everyone else sees).

What about when readers add their touch...

Beauty and the Beast (hint: young girl whisked away against her will to a strange castle where she is menaced by a disfigured monster, but she finds the man beneath the scars and true love blossoms).

George is so bad he even stooped to using non-romance storues for his cliched romances...

Citizen Kane (hint: working lad come good finds himself one of the most powerful and influential men in the land, but the thing he really loved more than anything else is that one thing from his childhood and his childhood was lost a long time ago - trust me this will be borne out when Littlefinger's last words are 'Cat'. Darn, gave that one away!).

Admittedly, I can't think of a Jaime/Cersei one. But we know that's special.

Anyway, of course I don't really mean these stories are all badly written - my point is generally 99% of any love stories could be called cliches, but only the Robb-Talisa one gets called out here as a cliche even though you could say that about any of them. We've seen it all before. Robb/Talisa is not lazy writing, some of it has been very realistic, it's just that their one is the most vanilla. And that can be rather boring when compared to all the other interesting and shocking shit that goes down in GoT.

Anyway, last thing while I'm on a soapbox, and a bit more back on topic, there was an interesting documentary on last week about Princess Alice of Battenberg (Britain's Prince Philip's mum) - she had a lively life. Anyway, she joins the ranks of historical battlefield nurses (Greco-Turkish war), and unlike Florence Nightingale or Mary Seacole she was nobility from across the sea, who would have thought?

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Her sass talking is still rather modern and cliche IMO. It's just the type of story Martin doesn't like in fantasy. 'Girl back talks royalty and the royalty falls for her' it's very.. (I don't want to be repetitive) but very blah and uncreative. As I mentioned above its very frustrating to only have all these bad ass characters which is basically what they made Talisa. What's wrong with having simple/nice/sweet girls? Clearly they can't write those sort of characters and that's why Sansa is pretty much butchered.

Because they want to appeal to modern TV viewers. It's why Shae is also a bit of an idiot who has seems to have no real self-awareness about her situation. They're afraid that the work will be slammed for being sexist or having negative portrayals of women. And I wouldn't be surprised. Shae and Jeyne aren't really very interesting and I can see how Shae's vapid submissive attitude would especially grate.

So you end up "modernising" these characters and you get idiotic moments like Shae threatening a man that was not only the son the of the most powerful man at camp but had a trained killer pull her from someone else's arms and could murder her without the slightest inconvenience to himself. In fact,they've pretty much stripped all the disturbing subtext from that relationship and made it into an affair with somewhat equal partners for all intents and purposes.

Also: another annoying part of Talisa's PoliSci student outlook: she's has a three second memory. She's totally willing to slam Robb for keeping a war going for his own petty reasons (which she backs down off pretty fast) in spite of the suffering of the commons but what is her only choice in the series? Oh yeah, contribute to more potential suffering by marrying the man and helping him break his alliances! Both of them are terrible because the message went right past Robb too.

Anyway, of course I don't really mean these stories are all badly written - my point is generally 99% of any love stories could be called cliches, but only the Robb-Talisa one gets called out here as a cliche even though you could say that about any of them. We've seen it all before. Robb/Talisa is not lazy writing, some of it has been very realistic, it's just that their one is the most vanilla. And that can be rather boring when compared to all the other interesting and shocking shit that goes down in GoT.

Pretty sure that a lot of other romances would be called out as cliches if anyone gave a shit or that wasn't the point. Romances on network tv or on the big screen aren't called out because no one cares, it's part of the journey. Here..not so much.

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I think it's clear that D&D think that only badass/rebellious/bratty women can be interesting on television, which I find a bit insulting, not to mention lazy writing and thinking. Think about it. Which ones do they give the most screentime to? Dany, Cersei, Margaery, Brienne, Arya, Ygritte, Olenna, whoever else I'm missing that's important, and then on top of all of that they have to throw Sansa and Cat on the backburner, and completely change Shae and Jeyne, all because they're not 'badass bitches.' It just seems very uncreative.

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I'm a little confused on your part of my saying about boldness and then agreeing what the writers did was to step on Martin's toes. They weren't exactly the same thing. Yes I think some nobody (at the time we meet her) back was sing a king is rather cliche and quite frankly overdone. My point o talking about D&D was saying I felt like they choose this plot as a fuck you to Martin, was because years ago he discussed his dislike for those sorts of fantasy storylines. If your such big lovers of the author like those two claim to be, why exactly would they pick the sort of plot that Martin is said to not like and steers clear of? That's what I was getting at.

To assert their independence?

To correct a very weak plot point in the book?

I don't think Robb couldn't necessarily like a girl that's like Arya, I just think they way they went about this arc made it rather modern and cliche IMO.

Interesting viewpoint, there.

Talisa is 'cliche', yet too 'modern'?

And Arya and Cersei wishing they were boys isn't cliche?

But the fact so many girls in the show are bad ass just makes me think the writers can't write meek/nice characters like Jeyne and Sansa. (Hence why Sansa is seemingly butchered according to many people's opinion). I don't see what's wrong with a few more female characters that are like Cat and Sansa.

Catelyn is far more like Talisa than she is like Sansa. Cat was always shooting her mouth off.

Personally I don't see why they did such a drastic change. (Which is another reason to why I dislike her.) What's wrong with keeping her from Westeros but changing the family she's from (like maybe from the Riverlands) if one of their reasons was to change the daughter of an enemy bannermen part.

Perhaps to avoid the 'Talisa (the spy) is Jeyne' theorycrafting?

I just think it's funny because in fact seemingly so many people think she's cliche, and so many think she's a bit to modern for the show, and there's some unsullied that think she doesn't look to fit into the GoT sort of world but yet no one can accept that she is modern and cliche.

This a medieval fantasy story. A character can't be both cliche AND too modern. If she's too modern, then she is breaking the mould and not cliche.

Talisa is far more believeable than Arya OR Dany. Even though I like Dany, she is completely unbelievable as a real person. Arya (whom I dislike) isn't much better.

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I Always thought that Widow by the Waterfront would turn out to be Talissa's mother. That way people could fear about tyrion's wellbeing (kill all Lannisters and shit like that) + it would provide the Widow with a more personal reason to support Dany and invoke a slave rebellion. But it could also be nothing we'ill have to wait untill the letter Talissa wrote is translated.

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I Always thought that Widow by the Waterfront would turn out to be Talissa's mother. That way people could fear about tyrion's wellbeing (kill all Lannisters and shit like that) + it would provide the Widow with a more personal reason to support Dany and invoke a slave rebellion. But it could also be nothing we'ill have to wait untill the letter Talissa wrote is translated.

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