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LordStoneheart

[Book Spoilers] Volantis and Talisa

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I think it's clear that D&D think that only badass/rebellious/bratty women can be interesting on television, which I find a bit insulting, not to mention lazy writing and thinking. Think about it. Which ones do they give the most screentime to? Dany, Cersei, Margaery, Brienne, Arya, Ygritte, Olenna, whoever else I'm missing that's important, and then on top of all of that they have to throw Sansa and Cat on the backburner, and completely change Shae and Jeyne, all because they're not 'badass bitches.' It just seems very uncreative.

I can see their reasoning though. For certain reasons it's what people expect. And during the first season most of those women weren't really present. Cat was...problematic. Dany was subservient to Drogo and/or Viserys, Cersei was not particularly threatening and was also sleeping with her brother *shrugs*. Around the time that Shae came on I could see why they changed her I guess. Especially given the use of Ros and the whores as establishing moments for Tyrion and Theon.

And no TV exec wants to eat the bad press that'd come with it. It's a much wider audience than fantasy readers and it wouldn't be pretty.

This a medieval fantasy story. A character can't be both cliche AND too modern. If she's too modern, then she is breaking the mould and not cliche.

Except when breaking the mould is actually the cliche at this point. and modern is talking about her actions in the context of her world vs. ours. It works.

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I can see their reasoning though. For certain reasons it's what people expect. And during the first season most of those women weren't really present. Cat was...problematic. Dany was subservient to Drogo and/or Viserys, Cersei was not particularly threatening and was also sleeping with her brother *shrugs*. Around the time that Shae came on I could see why they changed her I guess. Especially given the use of Ros and the whores as establishing moments for Tyrion and Theon.

And no TV exec wants to eat the bad press that'd come with it. It's a much wider audience than fantasy readers and it wouldn't be pretty.

Except when breaking the mould is actually the cliche at this point. and modern is talking about her actions in the context of her world vs. ours. It works.

Bad press for what? Not making the women strong enough?

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...

This a medieval fantasy story. A character can't be both cliche AND too modern. If she's too modern, then she is breaking the mould and not cliche.

Talisa is far more believeable than Arya OR Dany.

...

Indeed, if Talisa is unrealistic and therefore not worthy of the show, better get rid of the ultra unrealistic and 'modern' women - Arya, Brienne and Dany?

Let's have a realistic show set in the middle ages where the downtrodden serfs farm and sew, stopping only to and bow & scrape to their betters without a word. And all the the women do in the higher classes is whisper to their powerful husbands from behind the curtains or stay at home while hubby goes to war.

Like it or loathe it, book or show, that isn't GoT. And it isn't going to be as much fun as Arya's doomgaze or watching Brienne go all Xena or Danny putting a scumbag in his place.

To counterbalance this you need a few duller characters who are 'normal' and unfortunately for Talisa that was her lot in the GoT life. I still see no proof of poor or lazy writing - they wanted a true love story to counterbalance all the killing and torture, and to show that Robb was still a kid in many ways. And that's what they delivered.

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Bad press for what? Not making the women strong enough?

Yup. though I'm not sure that strong is the word.

EDIT: Outspoken?

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Except when breaking the mould is actually the cliche at this point. and modern is talking about her actions in the context of her world vs. ours. It works.

Brian: I'm not the Messiah! Will you please listen? I am not the Messiah, do you understand? Honestly!

Girl: Only the true Messiah denies His divinity.

Brian: What? Well, what sort of chance does that give me? All right! I am the Messiah!

Followers: He is! He is the Messiah!

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Amusing, but ultimately irrelevant. It's only funny because of a problem with definitions.

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It's pretty rich of people who think the books are realistic in a character sense to criticise the realism of Talisa. ASoIaF has a Machiavellian pragmatist with sociopathic tendencies, who has three children: a schizophrenic with narcissistic personality disorder (who also is one of the most beautiful women ever), a man who just happens to be the best swordsman of his generation, and a disfigured dwarf with an extremely high intellect.

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It's pretty rich of people who think the books are realistic in a character sense to criticise the realism of Talisa. ASoIaF has a Machiavellian pragmatist with sociopathic tendencies, who has three children: a schizophrenic with narcissistic personality disorder, a man who just happens to be the best swordsman of his generation, and a disfigured dwarf.

You forgot the teenage girl who is immune to fire and controls three dragons.

They are actually opposed to Talisa because she's NOT a fantasy cliche.

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Her sass talking is still rather modern and cliche IMO. It's just the type of story Martin doesn't like in fantasy. 'Girl back talks royalty and the royalty falls for her' it's very.. (I don't want to be repetitive) but very blah and uncreative. As I mentioned above its very frustrating to only have all these bad ass characters which is basically what they made Talisa. What's wrong with having simple/nice/sweet girls? Clearly they can't write those sort of characters and that's why Sansa is pretty much butchered.

And yet it was GRRM created the sassiest most backchatty character ever to exist anywhere in Arya (and moreover while disguised as lowborn for most of her life since we met her).

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And yet it was GRRM created the sassiest most backchatty character ever to exist anywhere in Arya (and moreover while disguised as lowborn for most of her life since we met her).

And she's never seriously harmed - despite being surrounded by brutal villains who have shown eagerness to hurt strangers, never mind people who piss them off.

Yeah, I don't think charges of Talisa being unrealistic are unbiased.

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It's pretty rich of people who think the books are realistic in a character sense to criticise the realism of Talisa. ASoIaF has a Machiavellian pragmatist with sociopathic tendencies, who has three children: a schizophrenic with narcissistic personality disorder (who also is one of the most beautiful women ever), a man who just happens to be the best swordsman of his generation, and a disfigured dwarf with an extremely high intellect.

It's pretty rich that, in trying to cite unrealistic character types, you cite actual character types. Throwing around psychology buzzwords does not an unrealistic character make. Weak.

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Talisa is far more believeable than Arya OR Dany. Even though I like Dany, she is completely unbelievable as a real person. Arya (whom I dislike) isn't much better.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this site.

This tells me your likely never to remotely understand the reasoning for Talisa hate and therefore not worth bothering for me to have to repeat things I've stated over and over.

To insult two actual good characters for a horribly written one. Wow

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This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read on this site.

This tells me your likely never to remotely understand the reasoning for Talisa hate and therefore not worth bothering for me to have to repeat things I've stated over and over.

To insult two actual good characters for a horribly written one. Wow

"Good" in what sense? I wasn't questioning their entertainment value, but their realism.

Do you consider them realistic?

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"Good" in what sense? I wasn't questioning their entertainment value, but their realism.

Do you consider them realistic?

More realistic than Talisa. I could see if your saying there's a couple things that does make them a bit on the unrealistic side (I can already think of two but also a defense in Arya case) but I definitely don't think they're more unrealistic than Talisa. That would be like trying to convince me Joffrey is a nice swee kid.

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And she's never seriously harmed - despite being surrounded by brutal villains who have shown eagerness to hurt strangers, never mind people who piss them off.

Yeah, I don't think charges of Talisa being unrealistic are unbiased.

Arya doesn't get harmed because she has the good fortune of first being a Stark and also keeping her mouth shut at opportune times.

They are actually opposed to Talisa because she's NOT a fantasy cliche.

Seriously? Maybe you're right.Maybe she's not a fantasy cliche. Perhaps she belongs more in the realm of Harlequin romance novels...

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And yet it was GRRM created the sassiest most backchatty character ever to exist anywhere in Arya (and moreover while disguised as lowborn for most of her life since we met her).

And we see that this character has trouble in her world for being a tomboy, that she is constantly running up against expectations for a high born girl and its only through the indulgence of her father that this streak is not thwarted, and of course, she's also a child, not an adult. We also see that Brienne of Tarth has paid a HUGE price for not living the traditional life.

So, I'm not sure what that has to do with Talisa who has a completely modern outlook on life [from where? Volantis, Essos, where slavery is legal, LOL] and she is living a completely modern life of a single woman professional on her own. She's Carrie Bradshaw in a long dress, and that is not a realistic character for this series.

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Arya doesn't get harmed because she has the good fortune of first being a Stark and also keeping her mouth shut at opportune times.

Okay, I am going to let the Stark 'luck' go unmocked, and say that she is remarkable in her inability to keep her mouth shut.

She verbaly sparred with Tywin Lannister, for God's sake! Despite him knowing that she was a northern noble, he let her run around handling his food and drink.

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I love Margaery, and I liked watching Oolena and Tywin, not to mention Arya and Tywin even if its disappointing they haven't shown much of a dark side to Arya. Are there gripes I have about certain changes? Sure. Are there some I might be a bit disappointed in but can understand why they did it? Yes. But there's none I really hate, except for this particular one.

But no I'm not at all saying they're one dimensional, I can see how it might come off that way but that's far from what I'm getting at. All I meant was those characters are fighting/bad ass/ don't take any shit types. Is that fair enough of a assessment between them? And they threw Talisa right into that category because the writers just can't seem to write a decent female character that doesn't fall into that archetype. That's all I meant. I love Arya and Dany and I definitely don't think they're flat or one deminsional, but they are both the typical speak your mind type.

I was slightly puzzled about Arya and Tywin until you realize it's Tywin who "saves the day" in episode 209, and I think showrunners wanted us to be borderline rooting for him, at least as the take no nonsense guy who gets things done. As for Arya's darkness, I think they've been going for a slower build, we'll see her kill now after the RW. (Similarly, I think Jon Snow is on a longer plan to build his maturity/ competence- seeing some good scenes from Kit now)

I think Brienne would prefer to take orders rather than talking back, but she is pushed into it by Jaime's obnoxiousness. All of the characters you're mentioning are high-born and usually speaking to people of equal or lesser status than themselves.

As for Talisa, I think we can assume Dorne's "feminist" culture must come partially from their Rhoynar heritage, and Talisa being high-born Rhoynar, it doesn't seem out of place. The population of Volantis is probably greater than The North as well, and as we have seen the Essosi consider themselves more civilized. (Ooh, hereditary titles, how cute!)

That said, what was wrong with the Robb getting wounded plot? Talisa could have started off nursing him and being demure at first, and then he pulls out the details that make her somewhat more interesting. It's really the "meet-cute" that was awful. That and Oona's characterization just seemed shallow. But now she's dead. I guess as far as "traditional" women on the show, you've still got Gilly.

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Okay, I am going to let the Stark 'luck' go unmocked, and say that she is remarkable in her inability to keep her mouth shut.

She verbaly sparred with Tywin Lannister, for God's sake! Despite him knowing that she was a northern noble, he let her run around handling his food and drink.

Oh, I wasn't thinking of TV!Arya. I was thinking of Book!Arya. The person who mentioned her specifically mentioned that MARTIN (not D&D), created the sassiest character in the series. Book!Arya benefits a lot from her position. Her initial actions go unpunished because she is a Stark. She is saved because she's a Stark, and she escapes Roose and Chiswyck and the rest because she keeps her mouth shut and she has a guardian angel.

As for TV!Arya: her "sparring" boils down to that one line repeated in every fucking trailer. "Anyone can be killed", an answer to a question that Tywin asked her. Yes, I'm surprised that Tywin didn't flay her on the spot :cool4:

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And we see that this character has trouble in her world for being a tomboy, that she is constantly running up against expectations for a high born girl and its only through the indulgence of her father that this streak is not thwarted, and of course, she's also a child, not an adult.

Besides some minor annoyance, what trouble has she had for being a 'tomboy'? Westeros has bent over backwards to keep her unharmed.

She's one of Martin's darlings, and has a plot shield protecting her.

We also see that Brienne of Tarth has paid a HUGE price for not living the traditional life.

Brienne has paid a price, but not a HUGE one. Not in that world. Compared to most characters in GoT, Brienne is not too unbelievable.

So, I'm not sure what that has to do with Talisa who has a completely modern outlook on life [from where? Volantis, Essos, where slavery is legal, LOL] and she is living a completely modern life of a single woman professional on her own. She's Carrie Bradshaw in a long dress, and that is not a realistic character for this series.

Slavery is illegal in Westeros as a whole. So, all of Westeros is too modern?

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