[Book Spoilers] Volantis and Talisa

[Castel]

Let's also add Brienne to the list of characters who get away with shit because they're noble, right up there with Arya. And also note that when the shit hits the fan and even that is not enough, she also learns the harsh truth.

[Cas Stark]

Besides some minor annoyance, what trouble has she had for being a 'tomboy'? Westeros has bent over backwards to keep her unharmed.

She's one of Martin's darlings, and has a plot shield protecting her.

Brienne has paid a price, but not a HUGE one. Not in that world. Compared to most characters in GoT, Brienne is not too unbelievable.

Slavery is illegal in Westeros as a whole. So, all of Westeros is too modern?

You seem to have missed my point, which was where did a Volantis noble acquire the modern outlook of Carrie Bradshaw, since Essos, especially Volantis is more steeped in tradition than Westeros?

You also seem to be confusing plot armour with characterization. Arya Stark has plenty of plot armour, but that doesn't make her character unrealistic or modern. Her "adventures" and the fact of all she has gone through and gotten nothing but a couple of beatings can be seen as unrealistic, but her character I don't think is unrealistic at all, not her being a tomboy or her very believable hardening and turning toward violence.

[ExBruinsFan]

You seem to have missed my point, which was where did a Volantis noble acquire the modern outlook of Carrie Bradshaw, since Essos, especially Volantis is more steeped in tradition than Westeros?

You also seem to be confusing plot armour with characterization. Arya Stark has plenty of plot armour, but that doesn't make her character unrealistic or modern. Her "adventures" and the fact of all she has gone through and gotten nothing but a couple of beatings can be seen as unrealistic, but her character I don't think is unrealistic at all, not her being a tomboy or her very believable hardening and turning toward violence.

Okay. I agree that Arya's mindset is not unrealistic.

I disagree that Talisa's is. She told Robb of what changed her attitude towards slavery. In the US, there were Southern abolitionists opposed to slavery.

[Winter In My Heart]

As for Talisa, I think we can assume Dorne's "feminist" culture must come partially from their Rhoynar heritage, and Talisa being high-born Rhoynar, it doesn't seem out of place. The population of Volantis is probably greater than The North as well, and as we have seen the Essosi consider themselves more civilized. (Ooh, hereditary titles, how cute!)

That said, what was wrong with the Robb getting wounded plot? Talisa could have started off nursing him and being demure at first, and then he pulls out the details that make her somewhat more interesting. It's really the "meet-cute" that was awful. That and Oona's characterization just seemed shallow. But now she's dead. I guess as far as "traditional" women on the show, you've still got Gilly.

Well sorry but there's not exactly another character I can name that's being idiotic enough to run around back talking people of higher rank than them. I guess only show Arya would come close to that.

It doesn't matter what reason they attempt to give at least to me because they've still given Talisa this modern outlook while making her rather cliche. She just does to many idiotic things that make Sansa even look very smart. So the fact that she thinks she's better than a king just because he's from Westeros, she's beyond having any sort of sympathy from me.

Like I said if the writing was better and the acting maybe they could have pulled off this story line but as it stands and how it played it, it was boring and a massacre to Cat and Robb. IMO.

We're bascially in agreement about everything else.

[TomBadgerlock]

It's pretty rich that, in trying to cite unrealistic character types, you cite actual character types. Throwing around psychology buzzwords does not an unrealistic character make. Weak.

Yeah, a family with an unbelievably beautiful set of twins, one of whom is the greatest swordsmen of his generation, the other of whom is a complete mental case (the two of whom are incestuous together, of course), with a little brother who is not only a dwarf but also completely disfigured and hideous, who just so happens to be incredibly intelligent and witty, with a father who just so happens to be possibly the most cunning man to exist in the realm, is completely realistic. We all know how cunning men tend to produce ugly, beautiful and amazingly gifted/psychopathic offspring, after all.

Families like that don't exist. People like Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion and Tywin don't exist. There are far too many extremes and contradictions to their character's.

[ExBruinsFan]

Families like that don't exist. People like Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion and Tywin don't exist. There are far too many extremes and contradictions to their character's.

Think GRRM is a fan of the Borgias?

[Cas Stark]

Okay. I agree that Arya's mindset is not unrealistic.

I disagree that Talisa's is. She told Robb of what changed her attitude towards slavery. In the US, there were Southern abolitionists opposed to slavery.

Slavery is only element, being against slavery doesn't make her modern, everyone in Westeros is against slavery.

What makes her modern is the dialogue they gave her, the "spunky" attitude of trash talking the King in the North when you don't know f**ck all about him, or whether he's going to have you whipped on the spot or how she came to be a single professional woman in a war zone traveling around with apparently no trouble getting money and no worries about her safety. Her apparently very modern attitude about sex, which contradicts with then why she would marry Robb to begin with.

[Daske]

And we see that this character has trouble in her world for being a tomboy, that she is constantly running up against expectations for a high born girl and its only through the indulgence of her father that this streak is not thwarted, and of course, she's also a child, not an adult. We also see that Brienne of Tarth has paid a HUGE price for not living the traditional life.

I don't dispute there can be conequences, but I do dispute the oft-cited claim GRRM hates and/or hasn't written these kind of characters - because he quite clearly has written characters with this very character trait!

Let's also add Brienne to the list of characters who get away with shit because they're noble, right up there with Arya. And also note that when the shit hits the fan and even that is not enough, she also learns the harsh truth.

Arya is not recognised as a noble for most of the time we have known her so can't be said to get away with it for that reason. And given that Talisa is a semi-disguised noble of some kind there isn't that much difference when all is said and done. And even then I would argue Talisa is merely straight-talking to the decent Robb (i.e. 'war is hell and a nurse should know') rather than the quite blatant back-chatting of Arya - who did it to Tywin of all people a couple of times let's not forget!

[Winter In My Heart]

Slavery is only element, being against slavery doesn't make her modern, everyone in Westeros is against slavery.

What makes her modern is the dialogue they gave her, the "spunky" attitude of trash talking the King in the North when you don't know f**ck all about him, or whether he's going to have you whipped on the spot or how she came to be a single professional woman in a war zone traveling around with apparently no trouble getting money and no worries about her safety. Her apparently very modern attitude about sex, which contradicts with then why she would marry Robb to begin with.

Yes I hated the scene where she said she never saw herself marrying. I'm like really? Your a highborn woman in a world using marriage as a political gain and your family will never marry you off to put them in a better position? She's the definition of stupid.

[Castel]

Yeah, a family with an unbelievably beautiful set of twins, one of whom is the greatest swordsmen of his generation, the other of whom is a complete mental case (the two of whom are incestuous together, of course), with a little brother who is not only a dwarf but also completely disfigured and hideous, who just so happens to be incredibly intelligent and witty, with a father who just so happens to be possibly the most cunning man to exist in the realm, is completely realistic. We all know how cunning men tend to produce ugly, beautiful and amazingly gifted/psychopathic offspring, after all.

Families like that don't exist. People like Cersei, Jaime, Tyrion and Tywin don't exist. There are far too many extremes and contradictions to their character's.

What? The argument was never about the group of personalities but about how realistic each of those personalities are for their position. And yes, they are pretty realistic. Cersei's reaction to her patriarchial culture, Tyrion's reaction to childhood abuse, Tywin's response to the mockery of his father, they all make sense.

As for families not having crazy members...disagree.

[ExBruinsFan]

Slavery is only element, being against slavery doesn't make her modern, everyone in Westeros is against slavery.

That was my point. You brought up her opposition to slavery as being too modern.

What makes her modern is the dialogue they gave her, the "spunky" attitude of trash talking the King in the North when you don't know f**ck all about him,

Like the 'spunky' way a little girl talks back to her family's greatest enemy?

or whether he's going to have you whipped on the spot or how she came to be a single professional woman in a war zone traveling around with apparently no trouble getting money and no worries about her safety.

She's from a rich family, and she wasn't travelling alone.

Her apparently very modern attitude about sex, which contradicts with then why she would marry Robb to begin with.

What's her modern attitude about sex? Doing it outside of marriage? How many bastards are made each year in Westeros?

She married Robb because she loved him and wanted their child to be legitimate.

[ExBruinsFan]

Yes I hated the scene where she said she never saw herself marrying. I'm like really? Your a highborn woman in a world using marriage as a political gain and your family will never marry you off to put them in a better position? She's the definition of stupid.

Then so is Arya.

[Winter In My Heart]

Then so is Arya.

Considering who aryas father is I doubt he would have forced her to marry or at least choose someone in the north who doesn't care about women acting tomboyish. Plus Arya is still a child not a grown woman we don't know for absolute certain if she'll think like that as she grows.

[Cas Stark]

That was my point. You brought up her opposition to slavery as being too modern.

Like the 'spunky' way a little girl talks back to her family's greatest enemy?

She's from a rich family, and she wasn't travelling alone.

What's her modern attitude about sex? Doing it outside of marriage? How many bastards are made each year in Westeros?

She married Robb because she loved him and wanted their child to be legitimate.

No, that isn't what I said, I said where did she get her modern attitude when Volantis is a society that is even more straightjacketed by tradition than Westeros.

How many women in the series have sex outside of marriage without a second thought? Answer: none. Why? Because virginity is highly prized, if you recall the only reason Brienne isn't raped is because she is WORTH LESS TO HER FATHER if she's no longer a virgin. In light of that belief system, Talisa's modern attitude about sex is just that, modern, and out of place.

She's anti war, has a modern attitude about sex and yet she marries the King in the North knowing its going to cost him a huge part of his army? Sounds quite strange to me, especially since she wasn't pregnant right off the bat.

Dany can get away with having sex with Daria because she's a queen and because her family has always put itself above the normal rules of society.

There is absolutely no evidence in the show, none, that Talisa was traveling with anyone.

[ExBruinsFan]

No, that isn't what I said, I said where did she get her modern attitude when Volantis is a society that is even more straightjacketed by tradition than Westeros.

How many women in the series have sex outside of marriage without a second thought? Answer: none. Why? Because virginity is highly prized, if you recall the only reason Brienne isn't raped is because she is WORTH LESS TO HER FATHER if she's no longer a virgin. In light of that belief system, Talisa's modern attitude about sex is just that, modern, and out of place.

She's anti war, has a modern attitude about sex and yet she marries the King in the North knowing its going to cost him a huge part of his army? Sounds quite strange to me, especially since she wasn't pregnant right off the bat.

She's in love. People in love do stupid things. That IS realistic.

If they are going to keep screwing, she's likely to get pregnant. She didn't want him marrying another woman.

Dany can get away with having sex with Daria because she's a queen and because her family has always put itself above the normal rules of society.

There is absolutely no evidence in the show, none, that Talisa was traveling with anyone.

Yup. The first scene one the battlefield (episode 4, about 9 minutes in), she hops on the back of a wagon that is being led by some guy. She was also working with the Silent Sisters.

Even if there wasn't that evidence - you can't assume she was travelling unaccompanied. As you make clear - that would be unrealistic. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[TomBadgerlock]

How many women in the series have sex outside of marriage without a second thought?

Asha? Arianne? Sand Snakes?

Talisa said in DW,DW that she never expected to marry anyone at all. It stands to reason that she never planned on being "sold" by her family for her virginity.

She's anti war, has a modern attitude about sex and yet she marries the King in the North knowing its going to cost him a huge part of his army? Sounds quite strange to me, especially since she wasn't pregnant right off the bat.

Lyanna was anti-war, helped the poor and weak when she was not required to (see KOTLT) had a feminist attitude to women's rights, marries the Prince despite him already being married (or at least has sex with him and runs away with him) and starts an eventual war over it. It sounds familiar.

[Winter In My Heart]

Yup. The first scene one the battlefield (episode 4, about 9 minutes in), she hops on the back of a wagon that is being led by some guy. She was also working with the Silent Sisters.

One old man protecting her against a war and men like Bolton? That's VERY realistic.

And there's absolutely no mention she works alongside the Silent Sisters. That's assuming to much with no evidence whatsoever to support it.

[Cas Stark]

Hopping on a wagon isn't evidence she's traveling with anyone. If the show wanted to clarify how she was working as a battle nurse in a realistic context, then they should have included that backstory. They didn't. Talisa never converses with anyone except Robb, its Robb she asks to get her more supplies, not the Silent Sisters, and if she was traveling with anyone...what the heck happened to them?

Sorry, the show wrote the story in a modern and unrealistic way and it is not up to me to fill in the massive logic holes they created with the Talisa, lone field nurse, from Volantis, talking smack to kings she knows nothing about.

[ExBruinsFan]

Oh, I wasn't thinking of TV!Arya. I was thinking of Book!Arya. The person who mentioned her specifically mentioned that MARTIN (not D&D), created the sassiest character in the series. Book!Arya benefits a lot from her position. Her initial actions go unpunished because she is a Stark. She is saved because she's a Stark, and she escapes Roose and Chiswyck and the rest because she keeps her mouth shut and she has a guardian angel.

I don't think we can compare book characters to TV show created characters. Different worlds.

As for TV!Arya: her "sparring" boils down to that one line repeated in every fucking trailer. "Anyone can be killed", an answer to a question that Tywin asked her. Yes, I'm surprised that Tywin didn't flay her on the spot :cool4:

She talks back to everyone in a postion of power (other than Littlefinger) she runs into. Including the Hound after he kidnaps her.

One old man protecting her against a war and men like Bolton? That's VERY realistic.

And there's absolutely no mention she works alongside the Silent Sisters. That's assuming to much with no evidence whatsoever to support it.

Watch it again.

Hopping on a wagon isn't evidence she's traveling with anyone. If the show wanted to clarify how she was working as a battle nurse in a realistic context, then they should have included that backstory. They didn't. Talisa never converses with anyone except Robb, its Robb she asks to get her more supplies, not the Silent Sisters, and if she was traveling with anyone...what the heck happened to them?

Watch the battlefied scene again. One of the Silent Sisters is holding the leg of the man whose foot she cuts off.

[Daske]

how she came to be a single professional woman in a war zone traveling around with apparently no trouble getting money and no worries about her safety.

I've said it before but women travelling with armies is not so unusual - cooks, prostitutes, corpse robbers and so on, and yes nurses. Battlefield nurses (in some wars) are a historical fact. As I mentioned upthread you even have a recent example of royalty getting involved. I'm sure it was dangerous, and didn't happen all the time, but that doesn't mean it's impossible or unrealistic.