[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 1

[Guest]

I found Lyanna Mormont's letter funny. It sounded like an 'out of the mouths of babes' moment. Are we sure all her older sisters are away? Shouldn't Jon have known it if such was the case? I thought it was simply meant to insult Stannis to have a little kid write a condescending letter to him.

I don't know what it was meant to do but I can just picture Stannis frothing at the mouth as a result of said condescending letter from young girl. Stannis needs to chill.

[L'Sana]

Maege definitely had "other daughters" with her when she went south to fight. It says so in ASOS in the Red Wedding chapter. Considering the culture of Bear Island, I think Maege would have taken anyone that was considered old enough to fight. That might mean 10-year old Lyanna is the oldest one left.

It does seem weird, though, that Jon knew that Lady Maege had gone and taken Dacey, but he didn't know that she had taken other daughters as well.

Stannis gives Jon until "the year is out" to man the castles.

How long is that?

A while, I would think. The Joff/Marg wedding takes place on New Year's Day, and I don't think there is more than a few months between the wedding and this scene with Jon and Stannis.

[Wouter]

Or she has seen him in her flames since she got to the Wall; the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is an important figure, and she would want to know something about him in advance.

We can add Melissandre to the shortlist of people who could potentially tell Jon about his mother/parents: if Melissandre has visions about him, she could see such things (if GRRM wants it, of course).

If the goat is actually a unicorn, then it could indeed point to "unicorn-island" Skagos for Rickon, as someone wrote (allthough only half-seriously). However, the mountain clans seem more logical: they're friendly to the Starks (and yet probably not to alien in lifestyle to Osha) and can be reached relatively safely/easily on land.

As for the letter to Stannis, like Markus I think the adults (or at least somewhat older relatives) are covering themselves here (in case they have to join Stannis at some point). What would a girl of 10 be doing writing letters to kings (or pretenders depening on POV) anayway? She probably wrote what was dictated to her. And even Stannis would probably not behead a girl of 10 over this...

[Wouter]

I think the phrase "it was very cold" coming from Mel is going to be very important, Jon even remarks that Mel is fire and that when she takes hold of him that she is warm. The wall has been described as cold on a number of occasions - but it is always said that when the Others are around that it gets even colder. Perhaps Jon's ignorance to this is due to the fact that he hasn't yet encountered the Others and he may do by the end of the book?

I think so too. I think Mel says "you know nothing" (besides wanting to show Jon what she knows through the flames, I suppose) because if Jon thinks it is cold at the wall now, he will be surprised when the Others arrive and he will know what "cold" really means. If even Melissandre thinks it is "very cold" in her visions, it has to be real cold indeed considering Melissandre seems to come with build-in heating.

[Guest]

I think so too. I think Mel says "you know nothing" (besides wanting to show Jon what she knows through the flames, I suppose) because if Jon thinks it is cold at the wall now, he will be surprised when the Others arrive and he will know what "cold" really means. If even Melissandre thinks it is "very cold" in her visions, it has to be real cold indeed considering Melissandre seems to come with build-in heating.

I can't help but think about Ygritte when Mel says "You know nothing Jon Snow." It makes me wonder if Mel was watching them somehow, or, crackpot theory here, Mel was with Ygritte somehow, or possessing her. Far-fetched for sure, but something about the inclusion of that line has to be significant.

[shadowbinding shoe]

There's a simple solution to Melisandre's supernatural spying. She looks into the flame and see Jon and Ygritte together. Ygritte says her usual phrase and Melisandre lip-reads what she's saying. If she's an old hand at interpreting visions in the flames, being able to lip-read the lip movements of those she sees would have been a big advantage.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

I actually do not interpret Melissandre's use of the line as she saw Jon and Ygritte in the flames.

I interpret that line as she being able to read Jon's mind. Jon thinks of Ygritte's line in Stannis and Melissandre's presence during the meeting, and that's where she picked it up.

Even if she did see them in the flame, and did perchance hear(or lip read) Ygritte say it, she'd have to have watch them over multiple interactions to understand the significance of the line to Jon, I just can't imagine her spending that much time watching them.

Whereas if she can read his mind she can easily sense Jon's emotions when he thinks of those words and the significance they have for him.

[Guest]

Something about GRRM writing about Mel makes her sound extremly hot, hottest person in the books to me. I wonder if Snow is thinking about it. I wonder what Stannis' problem is? A feudal lord who is loyal to his homely wife? This guy is one complex character.

[ericturner29]

Perhaps I'm repeating myself, but the 'you don't know what you're talking about' close to Mel's speech smacks of a person trying to be persuasive who's run out of clever things to say.

IMO, she's clearly trying to make a friend/ally out of Jon. She turns on the charm, offers to help him by revealing his enemies, offers some secrets/fortunetelling. Problem is, he doesn't take the bait. So what can she do? To save face she implies that he's a fool for not listening to her.

[Lady Blackfish]

But she definitely does know more than he seems to let on to her that he thinks she knows, the point of using the same line that Ygritte used is to show that her visions are real, because Ygritte actually said that to him and though Mel wasn't there she knows it. The fun part is that it still doesn't mean she knows everything. But she genuinely believes that she's got the key to the kingdom, so to speak.

[raif snow]

Its not everyday someone uses the same term of endearment on you as your slain ex-lover, pretty hard to pass that off as coincidence. I think Stannis dies in the next book and leaves Mel minus an AA, Jon stands by convenietly to fill the vaccum. I also beleive that once Stannis is gone his men will join Jon.

[Benjen]

I had a couple thoughts concerning Mels behavior toward Jon in the sample chapter. Whether she knows the truth of Stannis being Azor Ahai Reborn or not, I don't think that woman does anything without some agenda in mind.

After reading the chapter again I got the distinct impression that she's trying to seduce Jon. To what end you ask?

...the king's fires burn so low I dare not draw off any more to make another son. It may well kill him." Melisandre moved closer. "with another man though...a man whose flames still burn hot and high...if you truly wish to serve your king's cause, come to my chamber one night. I could give you pleasure such as you have never known, and with your life-fire I could make...

"...a horror." Davos retreated from her.

What does she think she could make with Jon's life-fire I wonder?

She warns Jon of the enemies that smile to his face, but mean to stab him in the back. Is she referring to herself? I doubt it, but it makes me wonder why she's being so helpful to Jon and acting so concerned about his welfare. Either she knows he must do something important for Stannis (who until this point seems to be the only individual whose welfare she is concerned about) or she has seen something to make her realize that she has been "betting on the wrong horse".

"If His Grace is doomed, your realm is doomed as well," said Lady Melisandre. "Remember that, Lord Snow. It is the one true king of Westeros who stands before you."

Funny that she does not call him Azor Ahai reborn there, when she says that so often and sees that as being the more important role he must play, rather than as Westeros' true king.

And why have her all knowing flames not shown her (or at least why has she not mentioned) Dany and her dragons? Mel's got power, sure, and may even think she's working for the most noble of causes, but her limitations may lead her to do something that will end up helping the Others. Like f_ing up the protective qualities of the Wall.

[rlevitin]

Its not everyday someone uses the same term of endearment on you as your slain ex-lover, pretty hard to pass that off as coincidence. I think Stannis dies in the next book and leaves Mel minus an AA, Jon stands by convenietly to fill the vaccum. I also beleive that once Stannis is gone his men will join Jon.

Wow, interesting idea... a lot would have to happen for that to come to fruition, but it would be cool to see. On one hand (killing Stannis), its Martinesque, on the other hand, I really don't think its plausible. What purpose would Jon use Stannis' men for? Re-manning the wall? Doubt it.

[Ghost's claw]

IMO, Mel saw jon and ygritte and...she felt jealous!!

[Maia]

Loved the chapter. I particularly liked the admission that visions in the flames sometimes show alternative futures or the past and apparently can be highly symbolic, too. I was getting worried with all those "true" prophecies coming out of woodwork in the last few volumes.

Having said that, I wonder if what Melisandre takes for vision of the future re: dragon hatching is actually symbolic vision of the past - namely Dany getting her dragons. IMHO, the details re: who died how aren't as important as Mel seems to think. Either the comet made it easier to accomplish without the proper ritual, Dany's innate affinity to dragons/frame of mind trumped the improper sequence of events or even Mirri Maz Duur, who was _also_ a Maegi somehow manipulated things to make it possible. Maybe she was the one who actually "sacrificed" Drogo and Raego in proper order and then "raised" Drogo as a zombie. We have only her word that she did what she did only out of revenge and she was intoning something in a foreign tongue when she was burned. Morever, she didn't try to kill Dany or to run away. It is not clear why she'd want the dragons back in the world, but maybe she also believed in the old legends and saw signs of impending catastrophe? The woman did have real magical power, after all.

Aemon's words re: power of king's blood and better people doing worse things do tantalizingly hint at the events of Summerhall. Of course, he'd have only second-hand information at best and was probably infected with Citadel's skepticism re: magic. If people in question resolved to sacrifice themselves voluntarily, then I don't think that it would fit the terms of "worse", but possibly Aemon thought that they were putting the realm in turmoil over mad superstition.

Queen's man's words do suggest the "power of three" so characteristic of the Targs. 2 to be sacrificed to infuse the 3rd with the power to wake the dragons. And Jahaerys II was supposedly in a very bad health and possibly crippled to judge from his portrait and it's description, when he became king. So, was he the one who tried to walk into the flames and hatch the eggs after Egg and Prince Duncan sacrificed themselves, but didn't fare as well as Dany?

If so, I feel that the Targs were missing a very important detail. I think namely that the fact that Dany was a woman who had recently given birth had a lot to do with her success. Dragons are neither male nor female, so they can fulfill either role and a certain "sympathetic link" with their motherhood aspect is probably essential for successful hatching. Or did they know and was it Princess Rhaella who should have done it? Only she was too weak and refused/couldn't hack it in the end and her father tried to do it in her stead, with disastrous results? Too bad that we probably won't learn the details until the last of Dunk and Egg stories comes out .

What drives me crazy about Melisandre's attempts to hatch dragons is that she apparently doesn't have the egg(s). At least Targs always had those. Or does she? IMHO, the idea that a dragon would just spring out of nowhere fully formed is totally mad. But Melisandre strikes me as somewhat rational. Hm...

[urizen]

What drives me crazy about Melisandre's attempts to hatch dragons is that she apparently doesn't have the egg(s). At least Targs always had those. Or does she? IMHO, the idea that a dragon would just spring out of nowhere fully formed is totally mad.

In ASoS she intended to raise the dragon statues at Dragonstone...

But Melisandre strikes me as somewhat rational. Hm...

For me it has always been the reverse. Mel comes off as the religious nutter who because she has faith in R'hllor can never do wrong and be mistaken. Every action is condoned by R'hllor since she's doing it for the Lord of Light. Logic, decency and common sense takes a backseat to religous catchphrases and blind obidience.

Although, If she's a powerhungry fraud who's using religion to build her own powerbase (As I think) then, of course, her actions is rational.

Crackpot theory: Melisandre is actually a secret agent for the Others. Under this premise her actions is fairly rational as well.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

In ASoS she intended to raise the dragon statues at Dragonstone...

For me it has always been the reverse. Mel comes off as the religious nutter who because she has faith in R'hllor can never do wrong and be mistaken. Every action is condoned by R'hllor since she's doing it for the Lord of Light. Logic, decency and common sense takes a backseat to religous catchphrases and blind obidience.

See, this is obviously not true, since she just admitted to Jon that she can err. Which is why her character just got interesting.

[Mezeh]

lost and gone refers to Summer, who is beyond the Wall. The Wall's magical properties interferes with the links that the wolves have. Ghost knows Summer is not dead, but he can't feel what Summer is doing and see through their eyes the way he can Nymeria and Shaggydog.

Jon couldn't feel Ghost when he crossed the wall without Ghost for the same reason.

Ghost clearly is able to feel Shaggy and Nymeria and this leaves only Summer.

[urizen]

See, this is obviously not true, since she just admitted to Jon that she can err. Which is why her character just got interesting.

Yes, She admits to making itty bitty mistakes yet those "mistakes" apperently has never caused her to doubt herself and rightousness of her actions. She has trouble continuing on the same way as before.

[The Scabbard Of the Morning]

How do you know she never doubts herself? She's never been a POV character and therefore impossible to know her internal doubts, we know that she admits she can make mistakes, which would imply that she can question the rightness of her actions.