[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 1

[shevchenko65]

I tihnk it will be one of the NW brothers. If I remember right, Bowen Marsh the Head Stewart was way to nice to Jon, so I think it will someone like that.

[Jonathan]

Oh yay more of Jon being infuriating.

Family, Duty, Honour... Damm Catelyn, you could have atleast drilled that into him you useless...

"Oh my brother is north of the wall, pfft no matter."

"Oh the North is bleeding to death, pfft no matter."

"You know nothing, Jon Snow" yep ficker than Small Paul and then some.

Does Jon even beleive in Green Dreams? And bending too much to Stannis will hit him the face in the long run..

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Are the underlined passages in the ASOIAF sample on GRRM's websites changes to the chapter?

[Gaston de Foix]

Are the underlined passages in the ASOIAF sample on GRRM's websites changes to the chapter?

I assume they are passages he wants to italicize in the actual print run and he has underlined them here for that purpose.

[Ran]

Yeah. Manuscripts use underscore for italics.

[Ser Scot A Ellison]

Ran,

Thanks good to know. Am I crazy or has the Chapter changed since it was first posted?

[Janus]

There is one small tibbit that I had not seen mentioned yet on this thread.

Near halfway through a Storm of Swords, before the red wedding in a Catlyen chapter, Robb creates a document and has every lord in attendance afix their seal to it, concerning his heir and the legitimizing of Jon as a Stark. Now, Maege and Dacey Mormont were there, as were representatives of every noble "northern house" (including at the time, the River Lords), excepting the Frey's, Bolton's and Karstark's.

Does anyone else think this child Mormont girl could be refering to Jon in her rather brusque rebuttal to Stannis?

[Loras]

Near halfway through a Storm of Swords, before the red wedding in a Catlyen chapter, Robb creates a document and has every lord in attendance afix their seal to it, concerning his heir and the legitimizing of Jon as a Stark. Now, Maege and Dacey Mormont were there, as were representatives of every noble "northern house" (including at the time, the River Lords), excepting the Frey's, Bolton's and Karstark's.

Maege Mormont and I think a Glover (I'm just prior to this point in my latest re-read so I'm sorry for not having the specific details) are bringing Robb's document north. I think that there are two things that will stop the letter and the contents of it coming to fruition.

Providing that Maege has survived her journey so far and there is nothing to say that the Frey's or indeed the Ironmen have not captured them. I think it is safe to say that they are going to be held up to some extent by the Ironborn, who at this point hold Moat Cailin. Maege (possibly with the help of the Crannogmen) is going to have to find a different route out of the Neck - unless they wait for the Iron Fleet (and Victarion Greyjoy) to leave before they journey north. Even then I find it particularly unlikely that Victarion is going to leave the Moat undefended.

Also I wonder how Lyanna Mormont would know of King Robb's legitimisation of Jon, it has been mentioned a number of times that it is common practice for the enemy to bring down ravens. So if Maege were to send a raven, especially from Greywater Watch, then the chances are that it has been brought down by now - and that information would be very dangerous.

The second point is that when the letter does arrive, and I am fairly certain that it will arrive towards the end of the book, that we will have a dramatic comparision between Maester Aemon Targaryen and Jon Snow - with Jon also choosing the wall. Which could unfortunatly leave Maege Mormont in a very difficult position; charged with high treason by a just man. I wonder though, would the Watch rally around Maege as she is the Old Bear's sister?

Anyway back to the point, I do not think that Lyanna is speaking of Jon in her letter, just that the Mormonts will only rise for the King in the North and that King must be a northman.

[Szar]

Providing that Maege has survived her journey so far and there is nothing to say that the Frey's or indeed the Ironmen have not captured them. I think it is safe to say that they are going to be held up to some extent by the Ironborn, who at this point hold Moat Cailin. Maege (possibly with the help of the Crannogmen) is going to have to find a different route out of the Neck - unless they wait for the Iron Fleet (and Victarion Greyjoy) to leave before they journey north. Even then I find it particularly unlikely that Victarion is going to leave the Moat undefended.

They are very much aware of this -- the Ironborn have held the Neck for quite a while by the time Robb declares his heir. In fact, in that very same chapter, he explains a detailed plan to win Moat Cailin back to Catelyn.

The Mormonts will probably go straight to the crannogmen.

[My Lady Ashalind]

Also I wonder how Lyanna Mormont would know of King Robb's legitimisation of Jon,

I know the theory of Jon's possible legitimization. But I don't think Jon is the Stark Lyanna Mormont is referring to. If you'll recall, Bran met a Liddle on his journey north. Those loyal to the Starks would certainly be in touch with one another. It's not a stretch to think the Liddle relayed the message that Bran lived.

[Taemlyn Blackfyre]

I've said it before and I'll say it again. Jon Snow's legitimacy as King in the North lay within Brenden Tully's underpants the day he quit Riverrun. Maege Mormont and any other lord who may have had a copy is either dead or stuck moat-side of the Neck. Robin Ryger and Desmond Grell also have copies of Jon's legit-King credentials tucked away in their smallclothes. How many underpants-stuffed nobles loyal to the direwolf does it take for Jon to forswear. Stannis might even use such a document for his own ends to get Jon to recant.

998th Lord Commander has a ring to it. Not so much as doomed 999th or lucky 1000th

[Mezeh]

Maege Mormont most probably will survive her journey to the Neck yet no ravens flew there or out of there so it is unclear how news about Robb’s will could reach the Bear Island by the beginning of ADWD. Bran and Rickon survival is more interesting… Since Liddle that meet Bran looks like somebody with position of authority this is likely that mountain clans are aware that Robb’s heirs are alive. Could they have shared this information to Mormonts? I would say that this is possible.

[hrafna]

it is mentioned by meera that ravens cant find greywater watch and they don't keep any. yet it has also been mentioned that ned stark sent infrequent letters to howland reed. i just doubt that the morments sent word out from greywater watch. only way i see it getting to the mormont family is if maege sent a raven from the mallisters at seaguard as an insurance policy.

[Odie]

I've been around these boards too long to possibly think that I'm the first one to have this thought... but I haven't read it anywhere, and the search feature sucks.

Has anyone considered the idea of Rickon being on Bear Island with the Mormonts? The weather would be similar to Skagos (which I know is a commonly bandied about theory) and probably has its fair share of goats and rain.

If so, what if Rickon is now betrothed to Lyanna Mormont?

Rickon is how old now? Six? It would make the most sense, if the Mormonts want to have a claim to TKitN, that they bethrote him to their youngest sibling. Stranger marriages have been arranged in Westeros, a wife four years older than her husband is nothing.

That would explain...

a) Why she's writing to Stannis instead of her older sisters.

Why she knows there's a King in the North still alive to bow to, as could be implied in the aforementioned letter.

c) Why the Mormonts are willing to speak out so strongly against Stannis.

[Lord Commander Snow]

When dragons are burning up all of Westeros there is little point in saving ashes from the Others.

I can see situations act where it calls Jon and the Watch to act, the piont of the wall is to protect the kingdom, that is their true objective, not make a playground for dragons.

Don't know what will happen but jon is a central character, and he's not just going to sit on the wall the whole series.

[Renasko]

I don't know...I could easily see Jon remaining on the Wall almost indefinitely. The only time I can see him venturing south again, beyond the Wall, would be at the end of the series. Y'know...for his and Dany's coronation.

[Lord Commander Snow]

The wall is a boring place... if the others are not attackign nothign is going on, and Jon has a lot of Stark family business to settle, and he's really the only stark left who can settle it. And i'll say it again the story started with the starts, follows the starks, adn will end with the starks.

MArtin is into history, and he likes to keep his stories realistic but in history there are your individuals who stand out, and that stories are told about. This is Jon's story, by in large.. Dany is huge, Tyrion is cool... From what i understand Martin wasn't 100 percent sure he even wanted dragons in the book. That to me limits what they're play in the finality of the book is.

Anyway martin always seems to complain about his mereneese knot, we need to make a thread devoted to solving it... just a thread that makes a few assumptions and plays out dany's life/impact on the books in a few ways, and how she achieves it.. how does she go from where she is to westeros, who and what does she bring with her, how does she resolve all the issues she wants to and bring it... and maybe martin can be like AH HA! that's how i'm going to make it believable and get Dany to westeros, and this is what she will do once there... Dragons add a crazy element to the story... what do you want dany to do, does she just conquer everything... Dany seems liek fundamentalyl more kind hearted than other characters.. i think she will end up allying with Jon Snow in one way or another, to fight off the others etc.. and what not.. i just hope they don't get married. Jon just need's to stay away from people born of incest (apologies if anyone here is born of incest) he needs to find some random chick, maybe one of the vipers daughters or something... and he can screw dany on the side, but that's it!!

[Xanrn]

Well to be honest, I do not honestly see how they can marry Rickon to anyone.

Pretty sure you would need permission from someone.

About the only person who could marry Rickon off is Jon(Bran being too young) and Maege Mormont is in the Neck who the hell knows the deal with her "husband" but Maege is the Lady so Lyanna marrying would likely need her permission. If she can give her permission somehow she can tell them Jon is King in the North.

The wedding would have massive legal holes in it.

Also as I and others have pointed out many times before, Jon is King in the North and it doesn't matter if Brandon and Rickon are alive, Jon is still King unless he abdicates/dies.

Robb signed the writ to jump Jon over Sansa and in doing so jumped Jon over Bran and Rickon who he thought were dead.

So marrying Rickon to anybody can't be done without Jon's permission.

Plus if they know Rickon is alive, Osha probably would have said Bran is alive in which case if they don't know about Jon, Bran is King.

[Roza Ahai]

Robb signed the writ to jump Jon over Sansa

Not sure about this. He signed some paper, but there is no evidence what was on there. I agree that Rickon can't be betrothed to anyone without family member's permission, at least King's permission.

[Kingslayer]

Not sure about this. He signed some paper, but there is no evidence what was on there.

That would be a really cheap move on GRRM's part, and it even makes less sense, plotwise. (Jon will have a major decision to make when he finds out about Robb's decree...)