Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Ran

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 1

Recommended Posts

...Another thing that I noticed in the books is that, although Westeros has no Thomas Hobbes, Stannis is the only character vying for the throne who has ever seriously spoken about his obligations to the kingdom. He fights for power because he believes it to be his duty, not because it pleases his personal vanity, as is the case for Cersei (and on some level, I suspect, Dany), or the nationalistic fervor of the nobility, as with Robb Stark...

Hmm...not so sure I agree with this. I think there is ample evidence that Dany has much concern for the common people.

...Aerys was the king, but he still got dethroned by Robert cause he was so mad. So if Stannis would follow his own rules, then he should let himself get killed by Daenerys, still the ''rightful'' heir to the throne. Stannis is therefore inconsequent because he's executing his ''justice'' while, if you're as rigid as he is, he's still a traitor.

Thirdly, Stannis is a man to pity because he takes no joy, no pleasure, from his life. His mind is set on what was taken from him, I don't think he really fights for his duty and obligation to the kingdom 100%, he wants to have back what was taken, he wants to have the respect denied to him by his brothers. That, and also partly his idea of justice, is what he's living for...

I'm not sure Stannis is obligated to believe Dany is the "rightful" heir to the Iron Throne or that her claim is necessarily any better than his. You see, there's still the matter of right of conquest. The Baratheons "took" the throne from the Targaryens and that's just the way it is. Dany isn't going to just show up one day and Stannis will say "oh yeah, your family had the throne before mine so you are the rightful queen". No, she'll have to "take" the throne back somehow for herself (whatever that entails).

You do bring up an interesting parallel between Stannis and Dany, though. They are both completely obsessed with getting something (the Iron Throne) they feel is theirs by "right" ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Another thing that I noticed in the books is that, although Westeros has no Thomas Hobbes, Stannis is the only character vying for the throne who has ever seriously spoken about his obligations to the kingdom. He fights for power because he believes it to be his duty, not because it pleases his personal vanity, as is the case for Cersei (and on some level, I suspect, Dany), or the nationalistic fervor of the nobility, as with Robb Stark. I have liked many characters in ASoIaF, but Stannis is one of the few that I have admired.

Huh? Sure that's what he says, but his actions contradicts it. if you look at his actions, especially in this chapter but also earlier,you see that he first and formost care about his own rights. Beacuse he is King everybody else should sacrifice anything and everything because he want it. A king, or more to the point, a good king/leader should give something back to the people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hm, if Mel can see thru earth and stone, why she does not see Dany's dragons? R'hlor does not show her?

She have dreamed about the Wall. Does it mean that her purpose before was to reach the Wall and she used Stannis as a vehicle. I think she could not directly go to the Wall coz it is not the place for women and she would be sent back to Asshai.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

good point, she would need a benefactor or at least a sponsor who could ensure her safety and provide her resources.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But she never suggested the Wall. It was Davos. Her suggestions were:

-Burn the sept in Dragonstone.

-Kill Renly.

-Kill Castelan at Storm's End and take Edric Storm captive for nefarious magical rituals.

-Use Edric Storm to get rid of rival contenders for the throne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
But she never suggested the Wall. It was Davos.

I'd give her a benefit of doubt there. She probably thought that Stannis would be more effective for defense against the Others if he at least had KL in his power. Going to the Wall with such meager forces - and he didn't have much more before he murdered Renly, leave alone had means to motivate them to come north, may have saved the Wall at that particular moment, but it is a stopgap measure at best. And it was only possible at all because Robb was already dead. With Robb alive, there would have been conflict with the loyalist northern lords soonish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

^I agree, Ive suggested before that even in Stannis's failures she gains more influence over him and limits his options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Going to the Wall with such meager forces - and he didn't have much more before he murdered Renly,

I was under the impression that he did have quite a bit greater strength before Renly as that was before the Blackwater where his losses were substantial. I thought Martin wanted us to believe that the Blackwater had reduced Stannis from major player to inevitable loser, before he reinvention at the Wall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
I was under the impression that he did have quite a bit greater strength before Renly as that was before the Blackwater where his losses were substantial. I thought Martin wanted us to believe that the Blackwater had reduced Stannis from major player to inevitable loser, before he reinvention at the Wall.

He had several thousand troops when he set sail from Dragonstone in A Clash of Kings, far less than the other major contenders. He returned to Dragonstone with even less, I believe around a thousand or so.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
He had a lot of ships (and their crews) before the Blackwater. Now he's got just Sallador's ships.

True enough. That alone wouldn't help him in fighting the Others, however, any more than it alone would win him King's Landing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a superb chapter. Between this and the prologue GRRM is shining like a bright beacon. The Tyrion and Dany chapter he had on were good as well.

Jon comes across as highly intelligent, even moreso than in the past, he has definitly grown. I'm concerned about Thorne and Slynt but ultimately I don't see how GRRM is going to have them succesfully take out Jon. Jon's "parley" with Stannis was a great read, and the character of Melisandre remains utterly fascinating. Not just that final line, but also the Hinges of the World line. She comes across as genuinely concerned and I think that is how we should read it. Not to say she does not have her own agenda, obviously she does, but protecting Jon seems to be in her interest. This fits from a storytelling point of view as well, because GRRM is setting up other enemies for Jon already, and with Sam and Aemon both gone, his already small group of allies has vaporated. He will need Melisandre. And she has seen him in the flames and even common sense tells her that he will be important in the fight against the Others, if only because he is a Lord Commander, and one she can work with.

Is it correct there are still thousands of Wildlings beyond the Wall? Led by Tormund? Best thing would be for them to someone join up with Stannis and the Night's Watch in the defense against the Others, but that's a wait and see issue for now. It's perhaps implausible, but not impossible.

Some of Stannis' behaviour remains irritating. He simply will not see things any other way but his. Does the end of this conversation now mean that he will give Jon his men to staff the castles along the Wall, or just that he allows Jon to keep the castles? There seems to be no point in allowing him the castles if Stannis isn't going to man them, since Jon doesn't have any manpower. But I thought it wasn't clear what Stannis was consenting to....

But the best part of the chapter was the opening with Jon dreaming Ghost's wolf dream. Ghost reminiscing about his brothers and sisters was touching. A nice touch to mention Shaggydog, I agree the mountain clans are a good choice, but moreso I was impressed by the line about Summer now being "lost to him", further indicating that Bran's company has now ventured sofar beyond The Wall that they have entered the territory where The Others seem to hold sway. I find it really interesting that Ghost's connection with Summer is really broken because Summer has ventured there. It adds further to the menace of the Others. Unless you believe they have lost connection just because one is beyond the Wall, which is another interpretation.

GRRM's description of truly harsh terrain leaves nothing to be desired either. It is fittingly cold South of the Wall, but Ghost knows its far harsher still beyond it. Couple this to Jaime at the end of AFFC with snow falling in Riverrun and you know what time it is.

I'd be really interested in getting more info on The Others. It seems Mel has something to divulge, and Stannis points out that he has spoken at length to Mance, who knows much about the Others. Hopefully later chapters will get more firm info.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I like your idea that Tormund will treat with the NW, I always thought of him as a surrogate uncle to Jon they way they bantered and how he would tease him alot. So I think if anyone can seal the deal between the rest of the wildings and NW its Jon and Tormund.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
... I was impressed by the line about Summer now being "lost to him", further indicating that Bran's company has now ventured sofar beyond The Wall that they have entered the territory where The Others seem to hold sway. I find it really interesting that Ghost's connection with Summer is really broken because Summer has ventured there. It adds further to the menace of the Others. Unless you believe they have lost connection just because one is beyond the Wall, which is another interpretation.

I hold to the latter interpretation. Jon's connection with Ghost was severed during ASoS, when Jon was south of the Wall and Ghost north of it; Jon had to get north of the Wall again to establish the connection again. Bran isn't constrained by this (he's able to look beyond the Wall in AGoT, and communicate with Jon from Winterfell in ACoK), but I imagine most ordinary wargs are.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bran opened the third eye in the crypt of Winterfell, that's why he could see through the Wall. Jon does not have the third eye open. As i understand, Bran can contact Jon from any place, even beyond the Wall, but Jon himself can't do it.

Jon, probably, will try to make an alliance with Tormund and pursuade wildlings to help in the fight against the Others.

Where is he going to find people to populate the empty castles?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

from the chapter, I thought that Jon will settle those castles with Jormunds' wildlings and Mel's queensmen. I know Martin's not into the old 'great alliance' before the final battle scenario, but I don't see how else he is going to muster a defense before Dany arrives in the North (which she will only do after starting a war for the crown/fighting the Vale - no reason to keep them unblooded - and the wall tumbling down).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"A wild rain was lashing down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him". I just worked out where Rickon is. "enormous goat" = unicorn, the clue being that it has only one horn. Rickon and Osha are in Skagos. I wonder how they got there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Other-in-law
"A wild rain was lashing down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him". I just worked out where Rickon is. "enormous goat" = unicorn, the clue being that it has only one horn. Rickon and Osha are in Skagos. I wonder how they got there?

Meh. You don't think Shaggy knows the difference between a goat and a unicorn/wooly rhino?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Meh. You don't think Shaggy knows the difference between a goat and a unicorn/wooly rhino?

No I don't think Shaggy would know the difference between a goat and a unicorn. A large goat with one horn is basically what a unicorn would look like to a wolf. Besides writing 'unicorn' would have sort of have given the game away...

"They lived in caves and grim mountain fastnesses, Sam had read, and rode great shaggy unicorns to war. Skagos meant "stone" in the Old Tongue" (AFFC) - make of that sentence what you will.

On the other hand I'm not sure that Skagos is the only place with unicorns- are there other places in the North which have been linked to these animals?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Melisandre's vision that she relay's to Jon indicates enemies in the watch. In affc cersei plans to send up osney kettleblack and 100 or so picked men to take him out, but with osney and cersei in the faith's custody, I'm not sure if that happened or not. Does anyone think those men still went up to the wall without osney?

If it's not those guys, his enemies would have to be either among stannis' men, or maybe Tormund's if/when they meet up. I'm also wondering if it might be the blackfish or those other guys from riverrun, afterall the blackfish made it clear what he thought about jon, equating him to theon.

Skagos is as good a place as any for Osha and rickon to hide out I suppose. I recall a ship being washed up on the beaches of skagos while sam was sailing by on his way to braavos, might that be how they got there?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×