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Ran

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 1

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it is mentioned by meera that ravens cant find greywater watch and they don't keep any. yet it has also been mentioned that ned stark sent infrequent letters to howland reed. i just doubt that the morments sent word out from greywater watch. only way i see it getting to the mormont family is if maege sent a raven from the mallisters at seaguard as an insurance policy.

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I've been around these boards too long to possibly think that I'm the first one to have this thought... but I haven't read it anywhere, and the search feature sucks.

Has anyone considered the idea of Rickon being on Bear Island with the Mormonts? The weather would be similar to Skagos (which I know is a commonly bandied about theory) and probably has its fair share of goats and rain.

If so, what if Rickon is now betrothed to Lyanna Mormont?

Rickon is how old now? Six? It would make the most sense, if the Mormonts want to have a claim to TKitN, that they bethrote him to their youngest sibling. Stranger marriages have been arranged in Westeros, a wife four years older than her husband is nothing.

That would explain...

a) Why she's writing to Stannis instead of her older sisters.

B) Why she knows there's a King in the North still alive to bow to, as could be implied in the aforementioned letter.

c) Why the Mormonts are willing to speak out so strongly against Stannis.

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When dragons are burning up all of Westeros there is little point in saving ashes from the Others.

I can see situations act where it calls Jon and the Watch to act, the piont of the wall is to protect the kingdom, that is their true objective, not make a playground for dragons.

Don't know what will happen but jon is a central character, and he's not just going to sit on the wall the whole series.

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I don't know...I could easily see Jon remaining on the Wall almost indefinitely. The only time I can see him venturing south again, beyond the Wall, would be at the end of the series. Y'know...for his and Dany's coronation. :P

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The wall is a boring place... if the others are not attackign nothign is going on, and Jon has a lot of Stark family business to settle, and he's really the only stark left who can settle it. And i'll say it again the story started with the starts, follows the starks, adn will end with the starks.

MArtin is into history, and he likes to keep his stories realistic but in history there are your individuals who stand out, and that stories are told about. This is Jon's story, by in large.. Dany is huge, Tyrion is cool... From what i understand Martin wasn't 100 percent sure he even wanted dragons in the book. That to me limits what they're play in the finality of the book is.

Anyway martin always seems to complain about his mereneese knot, we need to make a thread devoted to solving it... just a thread that makes a few assumptions and plays out dany's life/impact on the books in a few ways, and how she achieves it.. how does she go from where she is to westeros, who and what does she bring with her, how does she resolve all the issues she wants to and bring it... and maybe martin can be like AH HA! that's how i'm going to make it believable and get Dany to westeros, and this is what she will do once there... Dragons add a crazy element to the story... what do you want dany to do, does she just conquer everything... Dany seems liek fundamentalyl more kind hearted than other characters.. i think she will end up allying with Jon Snow in one way or another, to fight off the others etc.. and what not.. i just hope they don't get married. Jon just need's to stay away from people born of incest (apologies if anyone here is born of incest) he needs to find some random chick, maybe one of the vipers daughters or something... and he can screw dany on the side, but that's it!!

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Well to be honest, I do not honestly see how they can marry Rickon to anyone.

Pretty sure you would need permission from someone.

About the only person who could marry Rickon off is Jon(Bran being too young) and Maege Mormont is in the Neck who the hell knows the deal with her "husband" but Maege is the Lady so Lyanna marrying would likely need her permission. If she can give her permission somehow she can tell them Jon is King in the North.

The wedding would have massive legal holes in it.

Also as I and others have pointed out many times before, Jon is King in the North and it doesn't matter if Brandon and Rickon are alive, Jon is still King unless he abdicates/dies.

Robb signed the writ to jump Jon over Sansa and in doing so jumped Jon over Bran and Rickon who he thought were dead.

So marrying Rickon to anybody can't be done without Jon's permission.

Plus if they know Rickon is alive, Osha probably would have said Bran is alive in which case if they don't know about Jon, Bran is King.

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Robb signed the writ to jump Jon over Sansa

Not sure about this. He signed some paper, but there is no evidence what was on there. I agree that Rickon can't be betrothed to anyone without family member's permission, at least King's permission.

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Not sure about this. He signed some paper, but there is no evidence what was on there.

That would be a really cheap move on GRRM's part, and it even makes less sense, plotwise. (Jon will have a major decision to make when he finds out about Robb's decree...)

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That would be a really cheap move on GRRM's part, and it even makes less sense, plotwise. (Jon will have a major decision to make when he finds out about Robb's decree...)

It is easy to predict. Jon will refuse to become King in the North. I expect something like the Red Wedding, an unexpected move from GRRM.

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(Jon will have a major decision to make when he finds out about Robb's decree...)

I don't think it will be that major if it is Jon in the decree. Stannis is sitting right there with more men. He ain't gonna appreciate a new King Stark in the North.

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It is easy to predict. Jon will refuse to become King in the North. I expect something like the Red Wedding, an unexpected move from GRRM.

On will refuse but it wouldn’t be as easy as with Stannis. Stannis kept his proposal in secret and no one except him, Jon and Mel knew about it. Robb made his will in the presence of his bannersmen so Jon now has to refuse publically as well. The first trouble is that whatever he will do will involve him into politics his wows forbid him to take part of. The second – is no matter what decision he will take – some will be angered by it. The third – when king or abdicate he usually expected to abdicate in favor of some person so Jon would be expected to name his heir.

I’m really wondering how GRRM took Jon out of all this mess.

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Well Stannis's reaction depends on how Robb's degree arrives.

If it turns up with Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover plus maybe other Northern Lords with aload of men, Stannis isn't exactly going to be able to do much.

If they turn up and say we will follow noone but Jon but we will accept Jon's decision on maybe bending the knee.

Stannis isn't exactly in the position to refuse them, ok that might not stop him but ohwell.

Jon could spend a first couple of chapters and the Wall and then leave intime to be leading the attack on Asha at Deepwood Motte which by my guesstimates will be abotu 1/3 of the way into the book.

Of course its more likely its Stannis which means Stannis could gain possession of Robb's degree.

Then who knows... Won't it be fun!

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I think the decree will have another use. If Jon is named, than he has much more to say on who in next in line that if he wasn't named. He would essentially be taking the crown, name a successor, and then abdicating. Which means he gets to name the next in line to succeed him. And whomever he names would have the title legitimately and can rally support in the north.

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I think the decree will have another use. If Jon is named, than he has much more to say on who in next in line that if he wasn't named. He would essentially be taking the crown, name a successor, and then abdicating. Which means he gets to name the next in line to succeed him. And whomever he names would have the title legitimately and can rally support in the north.

And if he picks Stannis (not much choice) then Stannis vs Boltons becomes the fight for the North with the greyjoys having headed south for pastures new...exciting stuff

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Personally, I think Mel will get ahold of the decree. By this time, he will be on shaky ground as Lord Commander already, and Mel will try to burn Jon in the fire for his king's blood. This: 1) Gets Jon out of his vows, and 2) Is an opportunity for Mel to learn about Jon's Targ blood when he doesn't burn, and for her to back Jon instead of Stannis.

Just sayin'.

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Personally, I think Mel will get ahold of the decree. By this time, he will be on shaky ground as Lord Commander already, and Mel will try to burn Jon in the fire for his king's blood. This: 1) Gets Jon out of his vows, and 2) Is an opportunity for Mel to learn about Jon's Targ blood when he doesn't burn, and for her to back Jon instead of Stannis.

Just sayin'.

That's a creative way to get Jon out of his vows I guess, except that he's not fireproof, as I think he already burned himself pretty good once.

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Their is possibility of at least 2 dragon eggs being at the wall. Aemon was known to have one. Blood raven stole the red dragon egg before deamon could get his hands on it. Blood raven could have taken It with him to the wall. If mellisandre finds one she may have a real chance of birthing a dragon. The mystery knight is a must read for the missing dragon eggs and who had the eggs before Dany. New prophecies that mention a white wall and a dragon born near one.

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Did a reread of the Jon I chapter. I noticed at the part where Jon and Stannis speak of Gilly, there is a structural mistake:

Jon: "Mother's milk is all they share. Gilly's son is larger and more robust. He kicks the prince and pinches him, and shoves him from the breast. Craster was his father, a cruel man and greedy, and blood tells."

Stannis furrowed his brow. "I was told that the wet nurse was this Craster's man wife."

"Wife and daughter both. Craster married all his daughters. Gilly's boy was the fruit of their union."

"Her own father got this child on her? We are well rid of her then, I will not suffer such abominations here."

Stannis's reaction doesn't make any sense. He should say daughter, instead of wife. Otherwise, why the confusion? Thoughts?

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Well to be honest, I do not honestly see how they can marry Rickon to anyone.

Pretty sure you would need permission from someone.

About the only person who could marry Rickon off is Jon(Bran being too young) and Maege Mormont is in the Neck who the hell knows the deal with her "husband" but Maege is the Lady so Lyanna marrying would likely need her permission. If she can give her permission somehow she can tell them Jon is King in the North.

The wedding would have massive legal holes in it.

Also as I and others have pointed out many times before, Jon is King in the North and it doesn't matter if Brandon and Rickon are alive, Jon is still King unless he abdicates/dies.

Robb signed the writ to jump Jon over Sansa and in doing so jumped Jon over Bran and Rickon who he thought were dead.

So marrying Rickon to anybody can't be done without Jon's permission.

Plus if they know Rickon is alive, Osha probably would have said Bran is alive in which case if they don't know about Jon, Bran is King.

If I was a Northern noble and I found Rickon, I would declare him Lord of the North and myself as the Lord Protector. As his Lord Protector, I could give permission to betroth him to whomever I wanted.

I would name all the other principle nobles of the North as members of the small council, leaving out traitors like Bolton. I would then write them all, and explain what I had done. I would explain that I am willing to resign as Lord Protector as soon as the council meets and chooses a replacement. I would explain why I betrothed Rickon to someone or other and realize that I would have to get the support of the majority of the other leading Northern nobles to get it to stick.

If the majority wants to follow Robb's last instruction and have Jon be Lord (and King of the North and Riverlands) then fine. Rickon is removed. Jon is of age, and doesn't need a Lord Protector.

If Bran returns from north of the Wall and the council wants to make him Lord, then that is fine.

But Rickon is Lord now, and "I: am his Lord Protector now.

The theory that the government of the North is paralyzed until they find Jon is absurd.

By the way, I would simply ignore Robb's "will," and stick with Rickon. Of course, the excuse would be that Robb didn't intend supplant Rickon or Bran. But the real reason is that Jon will always have the issue of breaking his oath to the Nightwatch as well as the fact he is a bastard.

Now, it is true that if Jon really wants to contest this, then he would have a strong case. Maybe he could convince some of the nobles of the North to support him.

Similarly, if Bran shows up, he could make a claim to be Lord. Maybe some Nobles would support the handicapped Lord.

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I think the decree will have another use. If Jon is named, than he has much more to say on who in next in line that if he wasn't named. He would essentially be taking the crown, name a successor, and then abdicating. Which means he gets to name the next in line to succeed him. And whomever he names would have the title legitimately and can rally support in the north.

I think the decree was there to serve as telling the audience that Jon was legally justified from a northern perspective to take the Stark line, albeit unknowingly. Sort of a tease for the audience who deep down wished that the Bastard of Winterfall denied rights of succession would find himself leading House Stark and holding Winterfall.

But Jon stayed true to his oath that he would take no lands. It was one of the most heroic actions he has taken in the series. Maybe, if through special royal decree, he holds no lands and only accepts the role as banner leader of the lords sworn to House Stark, could he become Lord Stark. But I don't think it'll work. There is nothing there in the oath explicitly prohibiting taking oaths of fealty, although Jon pretty clearly thought that becoming the head of House Stark would violate his oaths. I think the system of fealty in Westeros requires an overlord to hold lands.

Also Jon probably cannot let himself get involved in succession issues, that comes dangerous close to violating the rule against violating the "Night Watch takes no part" in internal Westeros conflicts. The best he can offer Bran or Rickon is a nice comfy place on the Wall.

The only way I could see Jon claiming House Stark is if the wall falls and the Night Watch is disbanded. Otherwise, Jon's watch - and loyalty to maintaining his post on the Wall - remains until his death.

On a side note, he can always hook up with Dany if the plot turns towards that direction. He would not risk fathering children since Dany is barren and it's doubtful she's looking for a ring.

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