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Ran

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 1

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If I was a Northern noble and I found Rickon, I would declare him Lord of the North and myself as the Lord Protector. As his Lord Protector, I could give permission to betroth him to whomever I wanted.

I would name all the other principle nobles of the North as members of the small council, leaving out traitors like Bolton. I would then write them all, and explain what I had done. I would explain that I am willing to resign as Lord Protector as soon as the council meets and chooses a replacement. I would explain why I betrothed Rickon to someone or other and realize that I would have to get the support of the majority of the other leading Northern nobles to get it to stick.

If the majority wants to follow Robb's last instruction and have Jon be Lord (and King of the North and Riverlands) then fine. Rickon is removed. Jon is of age, and doesn't need a Lord Protector.

If Bran returns from north of the Wall and the council wants to make him Lord, then that is fine.

But Rickon is Lord now, and "I: am his Lord Protector now.

The theory that the government of the North is paralyzed until they find Jon is absurd.

By the way, I would simply ignore Robb's "will," and stick with Rickon. Of course, the excuse would be that Robb didn't intend supplant Rickon or Bran. But the real reason is that Jon will always have the issue of breaking his oath to the Nightwatch as well as the fact he is a bastard.

Now, it is true that if Jon really wants to contest this, then he would have a strong case. Maybe he could convince some of the nobles of the North to support him.

Similarly, if Bran shows up, he could make a claim to be Lord. Maybe some Nobles would support the handicapped Lord.

In a perfect world that makes sense. But right now, I would hide Rickon until I was sure I could win a pitched battle against the Bolton and any southron allies they could raise. Better to wait, gather strength, cut deals, and then strike. Looking at the map there are far too many hostiles with large armies to make a play, especially since Rickon is so young and the northerners seem to require that their King/Lord Stark be strong enough to lead them (Robb had to order his direwolf to take a bannerman's hand before he could unite the north under his rule).

I'm most curious to see how the northern politics starts shaking out post-Red Wedding. It'll be interesting to see if the other northern lords rally against Bolton, grudging ally with Stannis, or bend knee to their declared overlord. Stannis could really use Rickon, that's for sure...maybe Davos could be instrumental in that regard.

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Weird, I reread this chapter today on the website, and it seems different, more detailed. Did GRRM rewrite parts and update it, or am I going crazy?

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I was reading several summaries of ADWD chapters GRRM has previewed and had a thought as to where Rickon might be. This has spoilers related to the Asha chapter and one of the later Jon chapters, so be forewarned.

In Jon 1, Jon has a wolf dream where Ghost sees his black brother tearing an enormous goat, and having the goat's long horn raked his side. In the later Jon chapter where Jon is advising Stannis to make an assault on Deepwood Motte, Jon mentions taking a goat path and that Robb used a similar path to attack Lannistar lands. At one point earlier in the series, Grey Wind is credited with discovering the path Robb used.

The Asha chapter details an attack on Deepwood Motte that took them by suprise. Perhaps Shaggydog takes out a guard during the approach of the attack. This does not fit the timeline for Jon 1, as the wolf dream would be well before an attack accompanied by horns that one imagines is Stannis's southern contingent. Are any of the wolf dreams predictive of future events or are they more detailing the present state of the other pack mates? Lets set that scenario aside as less plausible.

Assuming Shaggydog being gashed earlier than the attack on Deepwood Motte, perhaps the "enormous goat" is an ironmen encountered on the goat trail Osha and Rickon traveled to Bear Island. "Enormous goat" feels like a phrasing where a wolf is trying to interpret what it is seeing different than a person would, much as Summer pictures a dragon when seeing Winterfall burning. The "long horn" raking Shaggy dog could be a spear. If we assume this to be what Ghost is seeing for the moment and Osha and Rickon later arrive at Bear island:

-Osha and/or Rick could mention to the Mormounts the goat trails as a excellent approach to Deepwood Motte. Asha 1 suggests there were multiple attacks, perhaps one is Stannis and the other is a northern force including a Mourmont contingent.

-Jon suggests attacking Deep Motte via goat trail...perhaps a wolf dream taking place along those very trails is part of what gives him the idea.

In Jon 1, a younger Mormount daughter rebuffs Stannis, saying the Mormounts follow the King in the North whose name is STARK. This letter fits in neatly with the above theory in a few ways. One, the older sisters could be absent as they are assaulting Deepwood Motte. Two, a wild younger daughter who now has equally wild Rickon as a playmate could be reckless enough to say they follow a Stark. An older Mormount daughter I feel like might rebuff Stannis but would stop short of mentioning a Stark, as that could raise questions. A ten year old Mourmont would not be so savvy.

When I first read Jon 1, the Mormount letter made me think, hmm...Robb's letter witnessed by his bannermen in Riverrun reached Bear Island as one of the Mormount women witnessed the letter and reached the north after passing through the Neck. If Rickon is there, he could be the Stark she references. Either scenario has potential and feels like GRRM to have an ambiguous interpretation.

There is no proof to this theory but there is enough circumstanial stuff happening it is fun to think about. Let's pretend it is true briefly. Here is a couple off-shoots of this:

-Jorah shows up at Bear island. Jorah recognizes Rickon, kidnaps him and takes off to find Dany, thinking such a valuable hostage is a terrific way to get himself back into Dany's good graces. Failing that, he can still use Rickon's return to get a pardon. If Jon found out about this kidnapping and could tie Jorah to Dany, Jon would be violently opposed to Dany thinking that Dany put Jorah up to this.

-A smaller story point, one of the Mormounts is hurt during the Deepwood Motte attack and is taken to the wall to be nursed back to health. That would put Jon in a position to learn about Rickon or Robb's mystery letter. In fact Jon could be told something to end a chapter and we don't know what he was told, we are left to guess.

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1-Jorah shows up at Bear island. Jorah recognizes Rickon, kidnaps him and takes off to find Dany, thinking such a valuable hostage is a terrific way to get himself back into Dany's good graces. Failing that, he can still use Rickon's return to get a pardon. If Jon found out about this kidnapping and could tie Jorah to Dany, Jon would be violently opposed to Dany thinking that Dany put Jorah up to this.

2-A smaller story point, one of the Mormounts is hurt during the Deepwood Motte attack and is taken to the wall to be nursed back to health. That would put Jon in a position to learn about Rickon or Robb's mystery letter. In fact Jon could be told something to end a chapter and we don't know what he was told, we are left to guess.

Jurble

1 Jorah is sure way back in Free Cities or around. He isn't allowed to return to Dany. I am in fact convinced that Jorah told Dareon, the Black Singer, for dragons. Which was 2-5 months after beginning Feast.

2 Deepwood Motte isn't in any Gift, Gifts are supposed to be miles long, so Mormont solders or leaders wouldn't be taken to Wall.

But, thought well, I agree with you that Rickon and Osha could be with Mormonts girls and lords.

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Huh what? Why is my name in your quote of "Starks in the Crypt"'s post?

Anyway, I was wondering: why is that Lyanna Mormant wrote the letter, and not any of her elder sisters as Jon himself wonders? What's the theory on that?

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I think it's simply to leave some "backdoors" open, so that the Mormonts later could step back from that letter.

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Anyway, I was wondering: why is that Lyanna Mormant wrote the letter, and not any of her elder sisters as Jon himself wonders? What's the theory on that?

Maybe her older sister are dead or sick. It's still a medieval time. and GRRM said that theme of ADWD is sicknes or something along this lines.

EDIT: Disease will be theme.

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...and GRRM said that theme of ADWD is sicknes or something along this lines.

EDIT: Disease will be theme.

When did he say this?

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So I noticed this today:

"Why? He knows the way." Stannis waved them both away. "Do what you will. Devan, food. Boiled eggs and lemon water."

STANNIS WAS REPLACED WITH A FACELESS MAN. STANNIS DRINKS SALTWATER NOT LEMONWATER.

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The wall is a boring place... if the others are not attackign nothign is going on, and Jon has a lot of Stark family business to settle, and he's really the only stark left who can settle it. And i'll say it again the story started with the starts, follows the starks, adn will end with the starks.

MArtin is into history, and he likes to keep his stories realistic but in history there are your individuals who stand out, and that stories are told about. This is Jon's story, by in large.. Dany is huge, Tyrion is cool... From what i understand Martin wasn't 100 percent sure he even wanted dragons in the book. That to me limits what they're play in the finality of the book is.

Anyway martin always seems to complain about his mereneese knot, we need to make a thread devoted to solving it... just a thread that makes a few assumptions and plays out dany's life/impact on the books in a few ways, and how she achieves it.. how does she go from where she is to westeros, who and what does she bring with her, how does she resolve all the issues she wants to and bring it... and maybe martin can be like AH HA! that's how i'm going to make it believable and get Dany to westeros, and this is what she will do once there... Dragons add a crazy element to the story... what do you want dany to do, does she just conquer everything... Dany seems liek fundamentalyl more kind hearted than other characters.. i think she will end up allying with Jon Snow in one way or another, to fight off the others etc.. and what not.. i just hope they don't get married. Jon just need's to stay away from people born of incest (apologies if anyone here is born of incest) he needs to find some random chick, maybe one of the vipers daughters or something... and he can screw dany on the side, but that's it!!

My post did not take...see below.

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The wall is a boring place... if the others are not attackign nothign is going on, and Jon has a lot of Stark family business to settle, and he's really the only stark left who can settle it. And i'll say it again the story started with the starts, follows the starks, adn will end with the starks.

MArtin is into history, and he likes to keep his stories realistic but in history there are your individuals who stand out, and that stories are told about. This is Jon's story, by in large.. Dany is huge, Tyrion is cool... From what i understand Martin wasn't 100 percent sure he even wanted dragons in the book. That to me limits what they're play in the finality of the book is.

Anyway martin always seems to complain about his mereneese knot, we need to make a thread devoted to solving it... just a thread that makes a few assumptions and plays out dany's life/impact on the books in a few ways, and how she achieves it.. how does she go from where she is to westeros, who and what does she bring with her, how does she resolve all the issues she wants to and bring it... and maybe martin can be like AH HA! that's how i'm going to make it believable and get Dany to westeros, and this is what she will do once there... Dragons add a crazy element to the story... what do you want dany to do, does she just conquer everything... Dany seems liek fundamentalyl more kind hearted than other characters.. i think she will end up allying with Jon Snow in one way or another, to fight off the others etc.. and what not.. i just hope they don't get married. Jon just need's to stay away from people born of incest (apologies if anyone here is born of incest) he needs to find some random chick, maybe one of the vipers daughters or something... and he can screw dany on the side, but that's it!!

I agree with you that Jon is the central focus of the series - at least one of the main ones...and I have stated before, in other forums, that I truly believe that Jon, Dany, and Tyrion will most assuredly form a great alliance. I believe Tyrion will be one of Dany's dragon's riders; thus, I think the dragons are an imperative part of the plot: "Tyrion had a morbid fascination with dragons. When he had first come to King's Landing for his sister's wedding to Robert Baratheon, he had made it a point to seek out the dragon skulls that had hung on the walls of Targaryen's throne room..." (121). From GAME OF THRONES, Martin establishes a clear connection between the three - Jon, Dany, and Tyrion - their fates most assuredly interwined. Though there is a little of Martin in each of his characters, Tyrion is a reflection of this history that Martin weaves into the narrative: "Well, my legs may be too small for my body, but my head is too large, although I prefer to think it is just large enough for my mind. I have a realistic grasp of my own strengths and weaknesses. My mind is my weapon. My brother has his sword, King Robert has his warhammer, and I have my mind...and a mind needs books as a sword needs a whetsone, if it is to keep its edge...When I was your age, I used to dream of having a dragon of my own...Even a stunted, twisted, ugly little boy can look down over the world when he's seated on a dragon's back...I used to start fires in the bowels of Casterly rock and stare at the flames for hours, pretending they were dragonfire. Sometimes I'd imagine my father burning. At other times, my sister..." (123-124). Though Martin may not have been sure about dragons, they certainly become an integral part of the plot... As far as Dany and Jon marrying - well, early on in the first reading of the series, I'll admit, the romantic part of me wanted that. As I finish my third reading, however, I have much more intricate theories. One remains the same, Jon, Dany, and Tyrion WILL work together...

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So I noticed this today:

STANNIS WAS REPLACED WITH A FACELESS MAN. STANNIS DRINKS SALTWATER NOT LEMONWATER.

there is not saltwater in the Black Castle.

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As to Jon resisting temptation and staying true to his vows, I don't think it will happen.

We have Stannis growing frustrated with "Lord Commander" Stark.

We have Robb's Decree.

We have GRRM who appears intent on denying anyone the mantle of paragon.

So I'm the opinion the third time is the charm, and next time an offer come Jon's way, he'll be slaughtering Greyjoys for breakfast.

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So, now we know why the Dragon Eggs hatched at the end of AGoT, right?

The AAR prophecy is probably the red priest's version of the PWWP one.

Two kings has to die for the dragons to born from stone (obviously in certain situation and only the PWWP can perform the ritual).

Father and son. So, the math is: Drogo+Rhaego+Comet+Dany/PWWP= Dragons.

So the question is: does Dany knows about the ritual and the PWWP prophecy? Or has she only dreamed the content of the prophecy?

Or was it pure luck? I don't believe the last one... it would be so lame.

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We have GRRM who appears intent on denying anyone the mantle of paragon.

Well, I don't think Jon is quite a paragon, and he'll likely have to do some less than savory things to prepare for and win a coming War for the Dawn.

So the question is: does Dany knows about the ritual and the PWWP prophecy? Or has she only dreamed the content of the prophecy?

Or was it pure luck? I don't believe the last one... it would be so lame.

As for the burning of the eggs with Drogo and Mirri Maz Duur, Dany had an idea with all the talk of blood magic and "only death may pay for life" coming from Mirri. As for the PWWP prophecy... There's an archmaester on his way to her, so hopefully she'll know all about it soon.

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As for the burning of the eggs with Drogo and Mirri Maz Duur, Dany had an idea with all the talk of blood magic and "only death may pay for life" coming from Mirri. As for the PWWP prophecy... There's an archmaester on his way to her, so hopefully she'll know all about it soon.

Yep, off course. But what I'm saying is that if AAR=PWWP (confirmed by Martin), and if Melisandre believes that king and prince have to be burned to wake dragons from stone because of the AAR prophecy (new info gained in this chapter), then Dany's ritual worked even because she sacrificed the bodies drogo and rhaego (a king and his son). It cannot be a coincidence imho.

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Yep, off course. But what I'm saying is that if AAR=PWWP (confirmed by Martin)

Where? Are you sure that you are not mistaken?

I agree on the rest (father and son, kings, Drogo and Rhaego), it seems logical.

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Where? Are you sure that you are not mistaken?

No, I'm not mistaken. I'm pretty sure that GRRM confirmed in a SSM that AA and PWWP are the same persons. Not that difficult to guess if you look at the similarities between the two prophecies.

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But when she put the dragon eggs by Drogo, before she burned him and Mirri Maz Duur, Drogo was already dead and where was her son's body? How could she sacrifice them to hatch the eggs, if they were already dead, and Rhaego's body wasn't even on the pyre...or was it? I don't think it was. The only living person was Mirri Maz Duur. Or maybe since they died in the tent (Rheago and Drogo) this some how brought life to the eggs then and there? Man there are too many twists and turns and mysteries in these books, sometimes trying to figure them all out gives me a headache! :)

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No, I'm not mistaken. I'm pretty sure that GRRM confirmed in a SSM that AA and PWWP are the same persons. Not that difficult to guess if you look at the similarities between the two prophecies.

Can you offer a quote or something.I'd appreciate. This way, you may just misremember.

PS:

You don't. I found it myself

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/Comic_Con_San_Diego_CA_July_20_232/

To all those who doubted, Azor Ahai Reborn and the prince that was promised are two versions of the same prophesied savior/redeemer that is supposed to come.

And the biggest tidbit, in my humble opinion, is:

SPOILER: Possible for ADWD

The second Dance of Dragons does not have to mean Dany's invasion.

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