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Ran

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 1

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There was a castellan left, a bastard (Rolland Storm?) IIRC. And a small garrison, which now probably has deceased (quasi)entirely.

No "big names" of the Stannis camp were left at Dragonstone, in any case.

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House Crowl

What region does house Crowl belong to?

I found it. I always thought that Skagos was not particular involved in the politics of the North, much because GRRM claiming it to be the backwater region of the North.

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I actually scribbled down something then looked at the Citadel to see if anything looked similar. House Crowl came closest. I don't know if that is the house or not. Maybe someone else can testify.

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Jon's thoughts - Wildings from all over are drifting down to the wall, searching for safety. Stannis keeps them captive in "wilding pens". Stannis picks wildings from the stockades for the Red Woman to question.

If Melisandre has been questioning the Wildings then could it be possible that one of them told her about Jon and Ygritte and the fact that she used to say to him, "You know nothing Jon Snow?" I searched back through ASoS and all the times she says this to Jon, they are alone except for 2 times. The first time was right before the eagle attacked Jon. Someone was singing a song about giants and Ygritte was crying and Jon told her there were still hundreds and she said, "You know nothing Jon Snow." The second time was when Styr wanted Jon to kill the old man at Queenscrown. When he refused Ygritte took the knife and killed the man and then said, "You know nothing Jon Snow." Now it is not clear whether anyone else actually heard Ygritte tell Jon "You know nothing Jon Snow" right before the eagle attacked him so I can't be sure of that one. And the second time, there were people present but they were all dead by the time Stannis and Mel came to the wall, except Jon of course. So I don't have conclusive evidence that any of the Wildings ever heard Ygritte say that to Jon but it is not out of the realm of possibilities.

And as someone else said before, it would be anti-climatic if Melisandre knew about this through some normal means and not through some sorcery.

As far as the arguments that Melisandre cannot hear things in the flames, let me direct your attention back to ASoS...

"'I will tell you,' said Davos, 'if you will tell me who betrayed me.' It could only have been Salladhor Saan, and yet even now he prayed it was not so. The red woman laughed. 'No one betrayed you, onion knight. I saw your purpose in my flames.'"

So here we see that Melisandre not only sees literal scenes of the past, present and possible futures but that she has some sort of insight into the state of mind of the people she is seeing and/or she can read or hear their thoughts.

ego :D

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I don't think the Mormonts have the manpower to mount an assault, certainly, but possibly a siege, especially if they were joined by any other forces nearby (the mountain clans, other smaller houses in the Wolfswood or further along the coast).

The Mormonts may be brewing something. Maege we know is still alive and was last seen heading for Greywater Watch and no doubt will carry on the fight.

Something interesting to note is that this chapter takes place before Sam's departure in AFFC. So either GRRM has abandoned his plan to do a Jon chapter as the flipside of that Sam chapter, or that chapter is now Jon 2.

I thought it was agreed that Maege was part of the conspiracy behind the Red Wedding (I miss the old board- wink, wink)

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I thought Alysane might be communicating with Maege at Greywater Watch, preparing for a Stark uprising.

What do people think of Shaggydog eating a goat? I don't know if that was mentioned previously. It sort of rules out Greywater Watch as a hiding place for Rickon.

I asked myself- were would Shaggydog be eating a goat? The lands of what Lord?

1st thought: Norreys and Flints

2nd thought: Manderly

3rd thought: Umbars

Dang it- there are just too many places with goats in the North. But probaly not Greywater Watch.

Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that Maege had taken several of her children to war, and that Dacey was just the oldest of them? That would explain why a ten-year old answered Stannis's letter - she was too young to go along with her older siblings.

Yes! In fact it was mentioned by Catylen at the Red Wedding that Maege Mormont took her daughters with her, but that Darcy was so loyal to her King that she stayed to be one of his bodyguard.

I found it. I always thought that Skagos was not particular involved in the politics of the North, much because GRRM claiming it to be the backwater region of the North.

Hmmm.... If I remember right Skagos has a grudge against the Starks, and all of the other Northern Lords, over some rebellion that was put down. Perhaps they would find it advantegous to ally with an outsider like Stannis?

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and that she knows Jon has a lot of enemies. Jon makes a comment that he is very aware he has enemies. She then tells him to keep his wolf close, and to fear the enemies that smile at him. The chapter closes with Melissandre saying "You know nothing, Jon Snow."

Is it possible that she could be talking about Robin Rygar and Desmond Grell. Jon might mistake them for friends because they served his brother but its entirely possible The Blackfish had them take the black so as to take Jon out. I mean The Black Fish made it pretty clear what he thought of Jon during his talk with Jaime.

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I doubt it. I think the Blackfist has more pressing things to worry about than assassinating someone at the wall.

Yeah because going "hey since you're gonna be taking the black anyway would you mind killing Robb Starks traitorous bastard brother while you're up there" would take so much time and energy for the Blackfish.

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Also, when you join the NW you are supposed to put your old life behind you and start from scratch with your new Brothers. Maybe Cersei could have found some low life oath breakers willing to join the NW for the express purpose of assassinating its LC, but it would be entirely another matter for a pair of middle aged knights, reasonably honourable men as far as we know, to do this. On top of that the Blackfish would have to ask or order them to carry out this dishonourable action, which does not seem to be very in character for him either.

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Maybe it's another example of GRRM's knack for misdirection. Just maybe BF vocalized his contempt of Jon Snow so he may conceal his ultimate destination, and that maybe he's on his way to the Wall now. To what end? Your guess is as good as mine. Of course he could just take the black, but then everyone would know where he's headed, right?

GRRM likes to make characters disappear and have them appear entirely somewhere else in his world without notice or warning. We know the BF will turn up somewhere, most seem to think at the Eyrie. The Vale is probably the most logical choice, but we may be surprised.

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The "Shaggydog eating a goat" thing is new for me. It actually makes me think of the Mountains of the Moon for some reason. Maybe because that's originally where I thought Osha would go, being a wildling.

The fact that he's killing a goat, and not a deer, an elk, or etc, kind of makes me think they are closer to some more civilized place than in the wilds of the North. Perhaps a place where there is no such prey for Shaggy, like in the swamps of the Neck.

Agreed

Perhaps it really wonted to hint us that Osha was looking to join up with Mountain Clans, and is taking Bran with her. Who else can she trust anyway...

Who know maby they even bump into Shaga and co one day...

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Perhaps it really wonted to hint us that Osha was looking to join up with Mountain Clans, and is taking Bran with her. Who else can she trust anyway...
Rickon

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The BF's destination is one thing I really want to know. Same with his motives. Right now he's kinda like Jaime. Sows discord wherever he goes. If he goes to the Vale, he will recognize Sansa, expose her to the Vale lords, and Petyr either loses control or is able to gain more support amongst the Vale lords for keeping the heir of Winterfell safe. If he goes to the Wall, he'll be able to rouse the lords of the North to go against the Boltons. It'll be cool if he rouses them at the same time that Theon kills Ramsey and maybe Roose :thumbsup: , and also when Petyr invades the North with the Vale armies to reclaim Winterfell in Sansa's name.

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Wasn't it mentioned somewhere that Maege had taken several of her children to war, and that Dacey was just the oldest of them? That would explain why a ten-year old answered Stannis's letter - she was too young to go along with her older siblings.

Yep; from the chapter of the Red Wedding,

Catelyn wondered if Lady Maege had reached the Neck as yet. She had taken her other daughters with her, but as one of Robb's battle companions Dacey had chosen to remain by his side.

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The BF's destination is one thing I really want to know. Same with his motives. Right now he's kinda like Jaime. Sows discord wherever he goes. If he goes to the Vale, he will recognize Sansa, expose her to the Vale lords, and Petyr either loses control or is able to gain more support amongst the Vale lords for keeping the heir of Winterfell safe. If he goes to the Wall, he'll be able to rouse the lords of the North to go against the Boltons.

Why would he expose Sansa if she and Petyr isn't ready to do so? Revealing her identity might put her in danger, and I see no reason why he would do that.

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Why would he expose Sansa if she and Petyr isn't ready to do so? Revealing her identity might put her in danger, and I see no reason why he would do that.

Good point. It would be so cool if he joined Sansa and Littlefinger and helped them with their plan. That would be so cool.

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