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Ran

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 1

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I can't recall exactly from aGoT, but does the description of how to hatch a Dragon given in this chapter stay consistent with how Dany did it? The Khal died from battle wounds, and then her babe (the new king?) was killed, and it caused the Dragons to hatch... Damn, I loaned my books to a friend and now I wish I'd hung on to them =S

That's absolutely correct. The blood of Khal Drogo, Rhaego, and that crazy goat woman whose name I can't remember how to spell all went into the awakening of Dany's dragons, although Dany herself had a large role I think. She was able to awaken them because she is Azor Ahai reborn and just as the original AA had to temper the original Lightbringer by killing his wife, Dany's "weapon against the Other" (the dragons) needed the death of her husband to hatch.

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I think the lost and gone one is Summer. He is lost and gone because he is beyond the Wall. The magics of the Wall block communication between the direwolves and between the direwolves and the kids. George has commented on Jon not being able to sense Ghost being a plot point at one time, IIRC.

Correct.

Once they had been six, five whimpering blindly in the snow beside their dead mother, and him alone, the pale one, crawling off into the trees on shaky legs as his litter mates sucked cool milk from hard dead nipples. Now only four remained of the six born that day, and one of those was lost and gone.

The wolf's pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

The black brother is clearly shaggy, the grey one is Summer, and the sister is Nymeria. Grey Wind and Lady being the dead ones, obviously.

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I thought that quote was referring to Nymeria and her pack, rather than Rickon, Osha, and Shaggydog.

Right. And it seems there is a deliberate contrast between where Shaggy and Nymeria are. Nymeria seems to be much farther South than Shaggy suggesting that Rickon and co are still somewhere in the North.

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So in other words, maybe when she says "I have seen you in my flames", she doesn't mean him specifically, but someone who she has now reinterpreted to be Jon.

Or she has seen him in her flames since she got to the Wall; the Lord Commander of the Night's Watch is an important figure, and she would want to know something about him in advance.

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IIRC, in ASOS there is mention of (mountain) goats inhabiting the northern mountains. Not 100% proof for reasons outlined throughout this thread (Shaggy's definition of goat for one), but it is all we got.

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IIRC, in ASOS there is mention of (mountain) goats inhabiting the northern mountains. Not 100% proof for reasons outlined throughout this thread (Shaggy's definition of goat for one), but it is all we got.

Specifically, Bran mentions in his second chapter that the mountain clans of the north keep goats and horses. Honestly, I think that makes a lot more sense than Osha and Rickon taking to the Mountains of the Moon; the mountain clans have an ancient loyalty to the Starks, and presumably would be willing to shelter him. The clans of the Mountain of the Moon have no reason to keep Rickon or Shaggydog alive.

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Specifically, Bran mentions in his second chapter that the mountain clans of the north keep goats and horses. Honestly, I think that makes a lot more sense than Osha and Rickon taking to the Mountains of the Moon; the mountain clans have an ancient loyalty to the Starks, and presumably would be willing to shelter him. The clans of the Mountain of the Moon have no reason to keep Rickon or Shaggydog alive.

Looked it up and Westeros states that wild goats do in fact roam the northern mountains. Agreed on the Mountains of the Moon possibility, apart from the loyalty aspects you point out, it would have been quite the trip for the 2 of them to make it south, past the Moat, through the Neck, getting through the northeastern corner of the Riverlands and into the mountains.

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Right. Basically they'd have to slip past both the ironborn and the broken men and outlaws of the riverlands, and to no particular end. (That is, if they make it to Greywater Watch, why not simply stay there?)

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Couple of questions-

They were hunting too. A wild rain was lashing down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat's long horn had raked him.

This is through the eyes of a wolf. A very large wolf. What is this enormous goat with a long horn? Is it really a goat? If not, what is it- does it matter? 1 horn, or 2- is it in fact a horn? Just curiosity questions.

"Then you know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered.

Am I the only one who read this as being inaudible to Jon's ears?

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Couple of questions-

This is through the eyes of a wolf. A very large wolf. What is this enormous goat with a long horn? Is it really a goat? If not, what is it- does it matter? 1 horn, or 2- is it in fact a horn? Just curiosity questions.

Am I the only one who read this as being inaudible to Jon's ears?

good observation there.. cos direwolves do not get wounded by goats for heaven's sake!! is it a unicorn?or stag perhaps?not sure but definitely not a goat. so im afraid all the predictions are wrong folks :P

about the second part.. there is a very good chance that you might be the only one, but i am not sure!!

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I would tend to defer to the large predator's knowledge for the purpose of identifying prey. Particularly as he had no trouble with the prey of man. Animal horns aren't for show.

With "Better people have done worse things," anyone else go to Rhaegar's kidnap of Lyanna Stark? No? Just me, then?

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Stannis says something in this chapter like "Lord Eddard was/is no friend of mine." Does he mean this? Or is he just being cold/hard Stannis? I would have thought that Stannis would have seen Eddard as a friend as much as he would any non-Baratheon lord out there.

Does he know that Eddard tried to make him king?

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good observation there.. cos direwolves do not get wounded by goats for heaven's sake!! is it a unicorn?or stag perhaps?not sure but definitely not a goat. so im afraid all the predictions are wrong folks :P

about the second part.. there is a very good chance that you might be the only one, but i am not sure!!

Try a Capricorn, for example. Goat or not,...horned herbivore is all we got at this point. It could be a deer, a gazelle species, an oryx, a cliff goat. Size doesn't matter much, since Martin could have made that up.

In addition, with the few other possibilities that we have/are aware of (political situation, whereabouts of various factions, the difficulty for a woman and a small boy to travel through various areas) it is quite likely that Osha and Rickon are somewhere among the Mountain Clans.

Admittedly, marshlands, in our world, also tend to harbour large "goat" like species (waterboks anyone?) so there is still a case to be made for the Neck based on the information we have at the moment.

Unless someone wants to go all out on Shaggy's "mentioning" of horn singular in which case the 3 of them may just be on Skagos. :P

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Stannis says something in this chapter like "Lord Eddard was/is no friend of mine." Does he mean this? Or is he just being cold/hard Stannis? I would have thought that Stannis would have seen Eddard as a friend as much as he would any non-Baratheon lord out there.

Does he know that Eddard tried to make him king?

He stated as much in the past (ACOK iirc). Then he seemed to show some grudging admiration for Ned (his honesty in particular). I think that about entails Stannis' opinion of Ned.

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Stannis says something in this chapter like "Lord Eddard was/is no friend of mine." Does he mean this? Or is he just being cold/hard Stannis? I would have thought that Stannis would have seen Eddard as a friend as much as he would any non-Baratheon lord out there.

Does he know that Eddard tried to make him king?

He presumably knows that the _Lannisters_ accused Eddard of being a Stannis supporter, which is a bit like Stalin accusing you of being a Trotsky supporter, i.e., meaningless without further evidence.

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Am I the only one who read this as being inaudible to Jon's ears?

As mentioned previously if Jon Snow hadn't heard this line it wouldn't have appeared in the chapter at all. I do think that you have the right idea though in that by whispering Melisandre is making sure that Jon and Jon alone hears what she has to say. It is, I believe, important the way she says this because by using "whispering" rather than "said defiently" or "scorned" it comes across as a much less cutting remark.

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With "Better people have done worse things," anyone else go to Rhaegar's kidnap of Lyanna Stark? No? Just me, then?

I guess it's Summerhall. The Targaryens must know the prophecy just as well as Melisandre does. So I guess they assembled at Summerhall with their dragon eggs and did the unspeakable: sacrificed a king and his heir.

Aegon V might have been terminally ill, and some newborn Targ might have been so sick as to die in a few days anyway. So it may have seemed a more-or-less humane thing to burn them both a few days before their eventual slow demise, roasting a few eggs in the hope of resurrecting the dragons. There might even have been a comet in the sky.

Or they really wanted to kill a healthy newborn Targaryen (Rhaegar?), but Rhealla fled with her newborn when she became wise to it. (I like that idea. I also think that Lyanna was equally appaled that Rhaegar wanted to use her child to fulfil some lunatic prophecy and tried to get away. Would be nice if Rhaegar himself had been born under similar circumstances.)

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