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Ran

[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 1

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Well, any credibility I had has just been flushed down the toilet.

It would have made for a less satisfying chapter ending:

[...]

"It is always cold on the Wall."

"You think so?"

"I know so, my lady."

Then she said something that Jon didn't quite catch.

That's why GRRM rewrites so much.

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It would have made for a less satisfying chapter ending:

Agreed, and this exchange was meant to be the end of Jon II - where Stannis delivered the final lines of the peace. I for one am glad of the re-write.

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I guess it's Summerhall. The Targaryens must know the prophecy just as well as Melisandre does. So I guess they assembled at Summerhall with their dragon eggs and did the unspeakable: sacrificed a king and his heir.

Aegon V might have been terminally ill, and some newborn Targ might have been so sick as to die in a few days anyway. So it may have seemed a more-or-less humane thing to burn them both a few days before their eventual slow demise, roasting a few eggs in the hope of resurrecting the dragons. There might even have been a comet in the sky.

Or they really wanted to kill a healthy newborn Targaryen (Rhaegar?), but Rhealla fled with her newborn when she became wise to it. (I like that idea. I also think that Lyanna was equally appaled that Rhaegar wanted to use her child to fulfil some lunatic prophecy and tried to get away. Would be nice if Rhaegar himself had been born under similar circumstances.)

Well Both Aegon V and his heir Duncan died at Summerhall. Rhaeger was not heir to anything until Duncan died. Rhaegar was the grandson of Jahaerys, who is the younger brother of Duncan.

I really like your theory of what happened at Summerhall though. I can't think of any better theory that would fit the motif of both sadness and madness that surrounds it.

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Well Both Aegon V and his heir Duncan died at Summerhall. Rhaeger was not heir to anything until Duncan died. Rhaegar was the grandson of Jahaerys, who is the younger brother of Duncan.

So actually Rheagar wasn't heir until Jahaerys died. Aerys was heir after Duncan's death, no? But then prophecies are tricksy things.

With "Better people have done worse things," anyone else go to Rhaegar's kidnap of Lyanna Stark? No? Just me, then?

I was assuming the bit about better men doing worse things meant Summerhall as well. Time will tell, I suppose.

I also found it a bit odd that Jon tried to explain to Stannis for whom Lyanna Mormont was named. I'm not sure how much Ned told his kids about Robert's Rebellion, but surely Jon knew that Lyanna Stark's abduction was the precipitating event for the Baratheons' seizing of the Iron Throne, and surely Jon is not so thick that he doesn't think Stannis remembers who she is. So is that bit just clumsy writing, or is there some deeper purpose to Jon's mentioning of it?

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I also found it a bit odd that Jon tried to explain to Stannis for whom Lyanna Mormont was named. I'm not sure how much Ned told his kids about Robert's Rebellion, but surely Jon knew that Lyanna Stark's abduction was the precipitating event for the Baratheons' seizing of the Iron Throne, and surely Jon is not so thick that he doesn't think Stannis remembers who she is. So is that bit just clumsy writing, or is there some deeper purpose to Jon's mentioning of it?

It's a little nudge for readers who haven't read the other books in a while, so that _they_ remember that Lyanna was Ned's sister.

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So actually Rheagar wasn't heir until Jahaerys died. Aerys was heir after Duncan's death, no? But then prophecies are tricksy things.

Aerys was Jahaerys' heir and hence not heir until Duncan's death, Rhaegar was not in the direct line of succession through Jahaerys until Duncan's death.

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It's a little nudge for readers who haven't read the other books in a while, so that _they_ remember that Lyanna was Ned's sister.

Yes, but it seems to be more of GRRMs style that those less obsessive/perceptive readers can look it up in the appendix, rather than have characters give such blatant data dumps. Consider the Frey Septon or the Septa who is Harry's aunt(?).

Personally, I wish he wrote it so that Stannis said something along the lines of "Lyanna hmm. You know Jon, that if it wasn't for Lyanna Stark, we wouldn't be having this conversation right now." - Which is entirely true, whoever Jon's mother is, but would probably have made half of the boarders' heads explode.

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I can't recall exactly from aGoT, but does the description of how to hatch a Dragon given in this chapter stay consistent with how Dany did it? The Khal died from battle wounds, and then her babe (the new king?) was killed, and it caused the Dragons to hatch... Damn, I loaned my books to a friend and now I wish I'd hung on to them =S

Rhaego died before Drogo. MMD killed Rhaego to save Drogo from his battle wounds. Then Dany smothered Drogo with her pillow.

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I thought that quote was referring to Nymeria and her pack, rather than Rickon, Osha, and Shaggydog.

When I read the word "they" in that sentence for some reason I thought Ghost was referring to the brother and sister wolf he was thinking about not the sister and her pack. It was likely a misunderstanding born from being excited and reading too quickly.

Specifically, Bran mentions in his second chapter that the mountain clans of the north keep goats and horses. Honestly, I think that makes a lot more sense than Osha and Rickon taking to the Mountains of the Moon; the mountain clans have an ancient loyalty to the Starks, and presumably would be willing to shelter him. The clans of the Mountain of the Moon have no reason to keep Rickon or Shaggydog alive.

Yeah, Osha and Rickon being in the Mountains of the Moon is improbable. It was my first impression after finishing CoK all those years ago. I have since doubted it (In my notes I have them at Greywater Watch, but the goat sort of proves that one wrong as well). Osha said she was going to follow the Kingsroad for awhile and the mention of warm rains made me recall my original thoughts on the subject. It just proves how misreading one sentence can lead me to a whole line of idiotic speculation. Thanks for the reality check.

I guess it's Summerhall. The Targaryens must know the prophecy just as well as Melisandre does. So I guess they assembled at Summerhall with their dragon eggs and did the unspeakable: sacrificed a king and his heir.

Wow. That's one hell of a theory. Didn't Duncan the Tall die at Summerhall too? Perhaps Dunk didn't like the dragon hatching plan or was the one who stopped it from working. Dunk tried to save Egg, and died in the attempt. What a friggin' tragedy. :stunned:

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Rhaego died before Drogo. MMD killed Rhaego to save Drogo from his battle wounds. Then Dany smothered Drogo with her pillow.

Damn, so much for that... thanks for looking it up.

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It's a little nudge for readers who haven't read the other books in a while, so that _they_ remember that Lyanna was Ned's sister.

im inclined to agree with you, but one could always claim jon's letting stannis know that half the girls in the north arent named lyanna. we've got multiple jons, mutliple jeynes, etc.--jon snow probably wasnt named after the jon umber.

Benjen - "one of the hinges of the world": the Wall is one of the places which hold this world together, that keep it safe. What are the others, I want to know?

iirc someone had a theory awhile back that the wall and the shadow were both something that might fit as "hinges of the world."

valyria, the isle of faces, and maybe the mother of mountains and the heart of winter (if it's a place) all have the same sort aura about them, these magical, not quite real places, that are truly vital to and unique in, the world. so we might already have a list of candidates.

might be a silly question, but why is it that "In his wolf dreams it was always night. "?

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I forgot how great it felt to read even one chapter of GRRM's writing. Please be out this year. Please. I miss you Jon, Dany, and Tyrion.

Obviously those are the three that everyone likes (and should hate because "everyone likes them") but too bad, Jon's by far my favorite character in any Fantasy series (followed closely by Locke Lamora and Mat- WoT).

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Re: where Rickon is

Wow, that would be awesome if Rickon were with the Northern mountain clans. The Liddle Bran's party sees is part of the Mountain clans. Maybe what Jojen dreamed and told the Liddle ("The wolves will come again"), the Liddle will actually take part in and spearhead, through the figurehead of Rickon. Would be a nice tie-in.

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Great chapter. I'm think I still like the Tyrion sample chapter more but I loved it (it's been so long!)

The Raven's appearance as the moon in Jon's dream is interesting and I'm not sure what it means (connection to a moon goddess of wisdom and magic?). But Jon's claim that his wolf dreams are always night (even though it is already daylight when he wakes) is eery. Did Bran's wolf dream also were nightish? I can't remember. Either it means that the direwolf is different enough so it seems like it's night to Jon. For example they have black and white vision and don't see as well as humans. Ghost may also have vision problems because he's an albino. But I think this has to do with the return of magic. After all the vision Jon receives from Ghost is magical and as we saw in Sam's chapter in the Citadel shadows become unnaturally dark under magical light. This could also tie in with the magical Lands of Shadow in the far east and the Long Night of legends. When the magic returns, daylight will disappear.

I found Lyanna Mormont's letter funny. It sounded like an 'out of the mouths of babes' moment. Are we sure all her older sisters are away? Shouldn't Jon have known it if such was the case? I thought it was simply meant to insult Stannis to have a little kid write a condescending letter to him.

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I found Lyanna Mormont's letter funny. It sounded like an 'out of the mouths of babes' moment. Are we sure all her older sisters are away? Shouldn't Jon have known it if such was the case? I thought it was simply meant to insult Stannis to have a little kid write a condescending letter to him.

Maege definitely had "other daughters" with her when she went south to fight. It says so in ASOS in the Red Wedding chapter. Considering the culture of Bear Island, I think Maege would have taken anyone that was considered old enough to fight. That might mean 10-year old Lyanna is the oldest one left.

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Ah I almost forgot about the raven.

He took a breath to clear away the cobwebs of the night as the raven flapped away. That bird is too clever by half. It had been the Old Bear's companion for long years, but that had not stopped it from eating Mormont's face once he died.

What do we make of that? More evidence for the "the-raven-is-Bloodraven"-theory? :)

edit: I hope this hasnt been mentioned yet.

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Ah I almost forgot about the raven.

What do we make of that? More evidence for the "the-raven-is-Bloodraven"-theory? :)

edit: I hope this hasnt been mentioned yet.

It certainly doesn't prove the theory wrong.

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"It had been the Old Bear's companion for long years, but that had not stopped it from eating Mormont's face once he died."

Is this a mistake? The man the raven was eating was not Mormont as far as we know. It was Small Paul. So what gives?

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Maege definitely had "other daughters" with her when she went south to fight. It says so in ASOS in the Red Wedding chapter. Considering the culture of Bear Island, I think Maege would have taken anyone that was considered old enough to fight. That might mean 10-year old Lyanna is the oldest one left.

Well, all I know is that I hope that Lady Maege left a castellan or something :)

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