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[Pre-ADwD Spoilers] Jon 1


Ran

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That would be a really cheap move on GRRM's part, and it even makes less sense, plotwise. (Jon will have a major decision to make when he finds out about Robb's decree...)

It is easy to predict. Jon will refuse to become King in the North. I expect something like the Red Wedding, an unexpected move from GRRM.

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(Jon will have a major decision to make when he finds out about Robb's decree...)

I don't think it will be that major if it is Jon in the decree. Stannis is sitting right there with more men. He ain't gonna appreciate a new King Stark in the North.

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It is easy to predict. Jon will refuse to become King in the North. I expect something like the Red Wedding, an unexpected move from GRRM.

On will refuse but it wouldn’t be as easy as with Stannis. Stannis kept his proposal in secret and no one except him, Jon and Mel knew about it. Robb made his will in the presence of his bannersmen so Jon now has to refuse publically as well. The first trouble is that whatever he will do will involve him into politics his wows forbid him to take part of. The second – is no matter what decision he will take – some will be angered by it. The third – when king or abdicate he usually expected to abdicate in favor of some person so Jon would be expected to name his heir.

I’m really wondering how GRRM took Jon out of all this mess.

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Well Stannis's reaction depends on how Robb's degree arrives.

If it turns up with Maege Mormont and Galbart Glover plus maybe other Northern Lords with aload of men, Stannis isn't exactly going to be able to do much.

If they turn up and say we will follow noone but Jon but we will accept Jon's decision on maybe bending the knee.

Stannis isn't exactly in the position to refuse them, ok that might not stop him but ohwell.

Jon could spend a first couple of chapters and the Wall and then leave intime to be leading the attack on Asha at Deepwood Motte which by my guesstimates will be abotu 1/3 of the way into the book.

Of course its more likely its Stannis which means Stannis could gain possession of Robb's degree.

Then who knows... Won't it be fun!

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I think the decree will have another use. If Jon is named, than he has much more to say on who in next in line that if he wasn't named. He would essentially be taking the crown, name a successor, and then abdicating. Which means he gets to name the next in line to succeed him. And whomever he names would have the title legitimately and can rally support in the north.

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I think the decree will have another use. If Jon is named, than he has much more to say on who in next in line that if he wasn't named. He would essentially be taking the crown, name a successor, and then abdicating. Which means he gets to name the next in line to succeed him. And whomever he names would have the title legitimately and can rally support in the north.

And if he picks Stannis (not much choice) then Stannis vs Boltons becomes the fight for the North with the greyjoys having headed south for pastures new...exciting stuff

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  • 2 months later...

Personally, I think Mel will get ahold of the decree. By this time, he will be on shaky ground as Lord Commander already, and Mel will try to burn Jon in the fire for his king's blood. This: 1) Gets Jon out of his vows, and 2) Is an opportunity for Mel to learn about Jon's Targ blood when he doesn't burn, and for her to back Jon instead of Stannis.

Just sayin'.

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Personally, I think Mel will get ahold of the decree. By this time, he will be on shaky ground as Lord Commander already, and Mel will try to burn Jon in the fire for his king's blood. This: 1) Gets Jon out of his vows, and 2) Is an opportunity for Mel to learn about Jon's Targ blood when he doesn't burn, and for her to back Jon instead of Stannis.

Just sayin'.

That's a creative way to get Jon out of his vows I guess, except that he's not fireproof, as I think he already burned himself pretty good once.

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  • 4 months later...

Their is possibility of at least 2 dragon eggs being at the wall. Aemon was known to have one. Blood raven stole the red dragon egg before deamon could get his hands on it. Blood raven could have taken It with him to the wall. If mellisandre finds one she may have a real chance of birthing a dragon. The mystery knight is a must read for the missing dragon eggs and who had the eggs before Dany. New prophecies that mention a white wall and a dragon born near one.

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  • 1 month later...

Did a reread of the Jon I chapter. I noticed at the part where Jon and Stannis speak of Gilly, there is a structural mistake:

Jon: "Mother's milk is all they share. Gilly's son is larger and more robust. He kicks the prince and pinches him, and shoves him from the breast. Craster was his father, a cruel man and greedy, and blood tells."

Stannis furrowed his brow. "I was told that the wet nurse was this Craster's man wife."

"Wife and daughter both. Craster married all his daughters. Gilly's boy was the fruit of their union."

"Her own father got this child on her? We are well rid of her then, I will not suffer such abominations here."

Stannis's reaction doesn't make any sense. He should say daughter, instead of wife. Otherwise, why the confusion? Thoughts?

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Well to be honest, I do not honestly see how they can marry Rickon to anyone.

Pretty sure you would need permission from someone.

About the only person who could marry Rickon off is Jon(Bran being too young) and Maege Mormont is in the Neck who the hell knows the deal with her "husband" but Maege is the Lady so Lyanna marrying would likely need her permission. If she can give her permission somehow she can tell them Jon is King in the North.

The wedding would have massive legal holes in it.

Also as I and others have pointed out many times before, Jon is King in the North and it doesn't matter if Brandon and Rickon are alive, Jon is still King unless he abdicates/dies.

Robb signed the writ to jump Jon over Sansa and in doing so jumped Jon over Bran and Rickon who he thought were dead.

So marrying Rickon to anybody can't be done without Jon's permission.

Plus if they know Rickon is alive, Osha probably would have said Bran is alive in which case if they don't know about Jon, Bran is King.

If I was a Northern noble and I found Rickon, I would declare him Lord of the North and myself as the Lord Protector. As his Lord Protector, I could give permission to betroth him to whomever I wanted.

I would name all the other principle nobles of the North as members of the small council, leaving out traitors like Bolton. I would then write them all, and explain what I had done. I would explain that I am willing to resign as Lord Protector as soon as the council meets and chooses a replacement. I would explain why I betrothed Rickon to someone or other and realize that I would have to get the support of the majority of the other leading Northern nobles to get it to stick.

If the majority wants to follow Robb's last instruction and have Jon be Lord (and King of the North and Riverlands) then fine. Rickon is removed. Jon is of age, and doesn't need a Lord Protector.

If Bran returns from north of the Wall and the council wants to make him Lord, then that is fine.

But Rickon is Lord now, and "I: am his Lord Protector now.

The theory that the government of the North is paralyzed until they find Jon is absurd.

By the way, I would simply ignore Robb's "will," and stick with Rickon. Of course, the excuse would be that Robb didn't intend supplant Rickon or Bran. But the real reason is that Jon will always have the issue of breaking his oath to the Nightwatch as well as the fact he is a bastard.

Now, it is true that if Jon really wants to contest this, then he would have a strong case. Maybe he could convince some of the nobles of the North to support him.

Similarly, if Bran shows up, he could make a claim to be Lord. Maybe some Nobles would support the handicapped Lord.

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  • 1 month later...

I think the decree will have another use. If Jon is named, than he has much more to say on who in next in line that if he wasn't named. He would essentially be taking the crown, name a successor, and then abdicating. Which means he gets to name the next in line to succeed him. And whomever he names would have the title legitimately and can rally support in the north.

I think the decree was there to serve as telling the audience that Jon was legally justified from a northern perspective to take the Stark line, albeit unknowingly. Sort of a tease for the audience who deep down wished that the Bastard of Winterfall denied rights of succession would find himself leading House Stark and holding Winterfall.

But Jon stayed true to his oath that he would take no lands. It was one of the most heroic actions he has taken in the series. Maybe, if through special royal decree, he holds no lands and only accepts the role as banner leader of the lords sworn to House Stark, could he become Lord Stark. But I don't think it'll work. There is nothing there in the oath explicitly prohibiting taking oaths of fealty, although Jon pretty clearly thought that becoming the head of House Stark would violate his oaths. I think the system of fealty in Westeros requires an overlord to hold lands.

Also Jon probably cannot let himself get involved in succession issues, that comes dangerous close to violating the rule against violating the "Night Watch takes no part" in internal Westeros conflicts. The best he can offer Bran or Rickon is a nice comfy place on the Wall.

The only way I could see Jon claiming House Stark is if the wall falls and the Night Watch is disbanded. Otherwise, Jon's watch - and loyalty to maintaining his post on the Wall - remains until his death.

On a side note, he can always hook up with Dany if the plot turns towards that direction. He would not risk fathering children since Dany is barren and it's doubtful she's looking for a ring.

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If I was a Northern noble and I found Rickon, I would declare him Lord of the North and myself as the Lord Protector. As his Lord Protector, I could give permission to betroth him to whomever I wanted.

I would name all the other principle nobles of the North as members of the small council, leaving out traitors like Bolton. I would then write them all, and explain what I had done. I would explain that I am willing to resign as Lord Protector as soon as the council meets and chooses a replacement. I would explain why I betrothed Rickon to someone or other and realize that I would have to get the support of the majority of the other leading Northern nobles to get it to stick.

If the majority wants to follow Robb's last instruction and have Jon be Lord (and King of the North and Riverlands) then fine. Rickon is removed. Jon is of age, and doesn't need a Lord Protector.

If Bran returns from north of the Wall and the council wants to make him Lord, then that is fine.

But Rickon is Lord now, and "I: am his Lord Protector now.

The theory that the government of the North is paralyzed until they find Jon is absurd.

By the way, I would simply ignore Robb's "will," and stick with Rickon. Of course, the excuse would be that Robb didn't intend supplant Rickon or Bran. But the real reason is that Jon will always have the issue of breaking his oath to the Nightwatch as well as the fact he is a bastard.

Now, it is true that if Jon really wants to contest this, then he would have a strong case. Maybe he could convince some of the nobles of the North to support him.

Similarly, if Bran shows up, he could make a claim to be Lord. Maybe some Nobles would support the handicapped Lord.

In a perfect world that makes sense. But right now, I would hide Rickon until I was sure I could win a pitched battle against the Bolton and any southron allies they could raise. Better to wait, gather strength, cut deals, and then strike. Looking at the map there are far too many hostiles with large armies to make a play, especially since Rickon is so young and the northerners seem to require that their King/Lord Stark be strong enough to lead them (Robb had to order his direwolf to take a bannerman's hand before he could unite the north under his rule).

I'm most curious to see how the northern politics starts shaking out post-Red Wedding. It'll be interesting to see if the other northern lords rally against Bolton, grudging ally with Stannis, or bend knee to their declared overlord. Stannis could really use Rickon, that's for sure...maybe Davos could be instrumental in that regard.

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  • 2 months later...
  • 1 month later...

I was reading several summaries of ADWD chapters GRRM has previewed and had a thought as to where Rickon might be. This has spoilers related to the Asha chapter and one of the later Jon chapters, so be forewarned.

In Jon 1, Jon has a wolf dream where Ghost sees his black brother tearing an enormous goat, and having the goat's long horn raked his side. In the later Jon chapter where Jon is advising Stannis to make an assault on Deepwood Motte, Jon mentions taking a goat path and that Robb used a similar path to attack Lannistar lands. At one point earlier in the series, Grey Wind is credited with discovering the path Robb used.

The Asha chapter details an attack on Deepwood Motte that took them by suprise. Perhaps Shaggydog takes out a guard during the approach of the attack. This does not fit the timeline for Jon 1, as the wolf dream would be well before an attack accompanied by horns that one imagines is Stannis's southern contingent. Are any of the wolf dreams predictive of future events or are they more detailing the present state of the other pack mates? Lets set that scenario aside as less plausible.

Assuming Shaggydog being gashed earlier than the attack on Deepwood Motte, perhaps the "enormous goat" is an ironmen encountered on the goat trail Osha and Rickon traveled to Bear Island. "Enormous goat" feels like a phrasing where a wolf is trying to interpret what it is seeing different than a person would, much as Summer pictures a dragon when seeing Winterfall burning. The "long horn" raking Shaggy dog could be a spear. If we assume this to be what Ghost is seeing for the moment and Osha and Rickon later arrive at Bear island:

-Osha and/or Rick could mention to the Mormounts the goat trails as a excellent approach to Deepwood Motte. Asha 1 suggests there were multiple attacks, perhaps one is Stannis and the other is a northern force including a Mourmont contingent.

-Jon suggests attacking Deep Motte via goat trail...perhaps a wolf dream taking place along those very trails is part of what gives him the idea.

In Jon 1, a younger Mormount daughter rebuffs Stannis, saying the Mormounts follow the King in the North whose name is STARK. This letter fits in neatly with the above theory in a few ways. One, the older sisters could be absent as they are assaulting Deepwood Motte. Two, a wild younger daughter who now has equally wild Rickon as a playmate could be reckless enough to say they follow a Stark. An older Mormount daughter I feel like might rebuff Stannis but would stop short of mentioning a Stark, as that could raise questions. A ten year old Mourmont would not be so savvy.

When I first read Jon 1, the Mormount letter made me think, hmm...Robb's letter witnessed by his bannermen in Riverrun reached Bear Island as one of the Mormount women witnessed the letter and reached the north after passing through the Neck. If Rickon is there, he could be the Stark she references. Either scenario has potential and feels like GRRM to have an ambiguous interpretation.

There is no proof to this theory but there is enough circumstanial stuff happening it is fun to think about. Let's pretend it is true briefly. Here is a couple off-shoots of this:

-Jorah shows up at Bear island. Jorah recognizes Rickon, kidnaps him and takes off to find Dany, thinking such a valuable hostage is a terrific way to get himself back into Dany's good graces. Failing that, he can still use Rickon's return to get a pardon. If Jon found out about this kidnapping and could tie Jorah to Dany, Jon would be violently opposed to Dany thinking that Dany put Jorah up to this.

-A smaller story point, one of the Mormounts is hurt during the Deepwood Motte attack and is taken to the wall to be nursed back to health. That would put Jon in a position to learn about Rickon or Robb's mystery letter. In fact Jon could be told something to end a chapter and we don't know what he was told, we are left to guess.

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  • 2 weeks later...
1-Jorah shows up at Bear island. Jorah recognizes Rickon, kidnaps him and takes off to find Dany, thinking such a valuable hostage is a terrific way to get himself back into Dany's good graces. Failing that, he can still use Rickon's return to get a pardon. If Jon found out about this kidnapping and could tie Jorah to Dany, Jon would be violently opposed to Dany thinking that Dany put Jorah up to this.

2-A smaller story point, one of the Mormounts is hurt during the Deepwood Motte attack and is taken to the wall to be nursed back to health. That would put Jon in a position to learn about Rickon or Robb's mystery letter. In fact Jon could be told something to end a chapter and we don't know what he was told, we are left to guess.

Jurble

1 Jorah is sure way back in Free Cities or around. He isn't allowed to return to Dany. I am in fact convinced that Jorah told Dareon, the Black Singer, for dragons. Which was 2-5 months after beginning Feast.

2 Deepwood Motte isn't in any Gift, Gifts are supposed to be miles long, so Mormont solders or leaders wouldn't be taken to Wall.

But, thought well, I agree with you that Rickon and Osha could be with Mormonts girls and lords.

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  • 1 month later...

Huh what? Why is my name in your quote of "Starks in the Crypt"'s post?

Anyway, I was wondering: why is that Lyanna Mormant wrote the letter, and not any of her elder sisters as Jon himself wonders? What's the theory on that?

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Anyway, I was wondering: why is that Lyanna Mormant wrote the letter, and not any of her elder sisters as Jon himself wonders? What's the theory on that?

Maybe her older sister are dead or sick. It's still a medieval time. and GRRM said that theme of ADWD is sicknes or something along this lines.

EDIT: Disease will be theme.

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  • 4 months later...

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