[BOOK SPOILERS] Jaime?

[lostinwesteros]

I didn't think the scene between Cersei and Jaime was romantic at all. As stated @ Door, #76 above, Cersei was turning the shell over and over, in her hands, obviously lovingly remembering times with Jaime, then that l o n g look when Jaime appeared. I thought that she was in shock at first, trying to reconcile the Jaime she knew with the Jaime standing before her then, or maybe not even recognizing him at first. And then she just sat there. No crying out (or even saying) his name, no getting up, even, and I didn't see love in her expression at all...maybe not revulsion, but definitely not love, either. Cersei doesn't like messy, or dirty, or awkward, or uncomfortable parts of life . . . in short, things that aren't "perfect". When Jaime finally dropped his head and looked down at his stump, I thought that it was in recognition that Cersei was repulsed, or at least scared away by, the lack of his hand. Cersei, on the other hand, has been moaning about Jaime not being there all this time, as in, "where is he, he's supposed to come save me from all this". The last look he gave, when he'd looked down at his stump and then back up at Cersei, was pretty much a 'hang dog' / crushed look, I thought.

As to his being back in KL already, I don't know. It doesn't seem to make any sense, even seems like it'll thwart necessary plot unfolding in Season 4. But as much as I hate to admit it, most of the plot changes that D & D have made so far, even when they seemed catastrophic to me at first, ended up being fairly logical and helped move the plot along. As we all talked about during the past season, there are just a mere 10 one-hour shows each season to convey hundreds and hundreds of pages of massive and extraordinary book events. The other thing I hold onto is that D & D stay in very close consultation with Martin, and I trust Martin implicitly.

Somebody mentioned the actor that played Ilyn Payne....This is something I heard by way of grapevine rather than read, but I thought that the actor had died.

[six]

To be fair the way the reunion happens in the book is so far beyond ridiculous that they couldn't do it. Given that they have been outed, Cercei cheated on him and is engarged to Loras, and that Jaimie lost his hand after having the rest of his reputation destroyed, I don't think a trepidation filled reunion is that surprising. It would have been weirder if they flung themselves into each other arms.

Maybe they couldn't do it exactly like in the books, but they could have found a middle ground between the romantic reunion we got and the rawness/all kinds of wrong reunion in the books.

[Huck]

Although Jaime's return is premature, I don't think it totally screws up the timeline. This is how I see it:

[...]

- Jaime has only just arrived at KL. I think the PW will happen very early in S4, so that there is not that much time for Jaime to get back in the swing of things and have any real impact on trying to protect Joff and feeling guilt for failing. He will also see the true jerk that is his son.

- I am looking forward to Jaime's fallout with Tywin, his renewed determination as a Kingsguard, saving Tyrion, and giving Brienne Oathkeeper.

I'm wondering: could it be that Jaime is somehow suspended from the KG because of his missing sword hand and thus inability to fight and protect the king? this might also cuase further rifts in the Lannister family dynamic.

And wouldn't it then be all the more poignant when all these able knights can't protect Joffrey?

[Wunhopkuendo]

I didn't think the scene between Cersei and Jaime was romantic at all. As stated @ Door, #76 above, Cersei was turning the shell over and over, in her hands, obviously lovingly remembering times with Jaime, then that l o n g look when Jaime appeared. I thought that she was in shock at first, trying to reconcile the Jaime she knew with the Jaime standing before her then, or maybe not even recognizing him at first. And then she just sat there. No crying out (or even saying) his name, no getting up, even, and I didn't see love in her expression at all...maybe not revulsion, but definitely not love, either. Cersei doesn't like messy, or dirty, or awkward, or uncomfortable parts of life . . . in short, things that aren't "perfect". When Jaime finally dropped his head and looked down at his stump, I thought that it was in recognition that Cersei was repulsed, or at least scared away by, the lack of his hand. Cersei, on the other hand, has been moaning about Jaime not being there all this time, as in, "where is he, he's supposed to come save me from all this". The last look he gave, when he'd looked down at his stump and then back up at Cersei, was pretty much a 'hang dog' / crushed look, I thought.

Finally! Someone actually got the essence of this scene. It only took 5 pages, but thank you very much! I was starting to get worried here that everyone missed it. That was perhaps the best 15 seconds of nonverbal acting I have seen anywhere.

[mediterraneo]

Well, in my book Jaime's relation with Cersei isn't more unhealty of any romantic, teenager "real " love one anywhere else. He loves her "no matter what" without looking at reality around them, just to her.

The problems on his way of loving her begins when he gets out of his father's custody and protection, and exposed to reality. Reality of his own violence, that gets back on him and his freedom before and hand later. Reality of Catelyn's compassion, that is the thing that keeps him alive. Reality of Brienne's adherence to the code he swore in, and had to remove not to cope with his deeds in the last years of the Mad King's kingdom, which he somehow expiated by killing the old prick. But they get back on him when he has to count the story of them to a person whose opinion, so surprisingly, is so important to him.

Reality got on Cersei's side of the relationship well before. Under the drunk king's "Love you Lyanna..." under the weight of her own belly in her three (four in the show) pregnancies, under the desesperate recognition of her own ill destiny, so tightly tied to the boat of the next mad king, her sadistic child, but child. The fear. the fear for Myrcella having to live her own destiny, the fear of having to poison her own son if the wrong person enters that door over there, when Lancel already told her everything was lost, and it was her own and her other coward son fault. The fear of Jaime's loss, of the disappearence of the man that prevented reality to get her (it was not father, for her, father gave her to the usurper) was so strong that she started to look for men that reminded her on him. In the books the slide from the phisical resemblance Lancel has to the psicological similarity of the omnipotent feeling Kettlebacks, to the assumption on herself of the omnipotent penetrating aura with lady Merrywather is a unidirectional slide. All of the persons she fucks have something of Jaime. The show is still on the first phase of it.

And then we have the encounter between the two. There is no tear, no contact, no phisicality in it. It is so clearly a broken thing...Look again at Jaime's face getting harder, to force her to succumb to his eyes's power even when she is looking at his cut hand. She cannot say "welcome back", he cannot say "i missed you".

Now they are really, fucked up.

They just need casus belli, the love is over. It was founded on blind passion. The mindnumbing passion is obviously not there anymore.

Because he lied on her promising that reality wouldn't have gotten them, because she looked at his hand and decided he was not the same person of before, when he needed her most, so her love must has always been a big lie.

Because he doesn't love her children enough, because she loves them too much.

Because of Littlefinger's and Varys's war, a war that their father had to start because of Eddard's, and Catelyn's, and Stannis's and Joffrey's different delusions, a war that Cersei and Jaime didn't want. A war of which both the Lannister twins are victims.

So, I differ from opinion expressed on this thread before. Jaime and Cersei's love was a pure thing, even if not as "healthy" as the Cat and Ned's forced, rebound marriage decided by their putative families and by wartime.

I differ again on her reencounter, which is anything but a happy one, as in the books was. There is already no love there, and both of them recognize the other as a new, unknown person. But Joffrey's death well into the first half od next season will be the final nail on the coffin of thier love, together with what is left of Cersei's sanity.

[Veltigar]

I'm wondering: could it be that Jaime is somehow suspended from the KG because of his missing sword hand and thus inability to fight and protect the king? this might also cuase further rifts in the Lannister family dynamic.

And wouldn't it then be all the more poignant when all these able knights can't protect Joffrey?

That could work. That way he would still be able to scold the others for failing. But i hope they just give him leave to recover from his injuries instead of just suspending him.

[Lord Martin]

My problem was the story boarding of the scene, not the way it was acted. NCW was amazing so was Leona. Their body language was very expressive, thought I wonder if it were perceptible to non book readers.

What I thought was missing was some of Jaime's psyche towards Cersei. He's puppy dog head over heels in love with her and that is so much of what drove his decision making to this point. I'm not sure the show adequately depicted the depths of Jaime's longing for Cersei.

[mediterraneo]

On a quite non related matter: Cersei and Jaime will still wok together next season, to put up a trustworthy and fuctional Royal Guard. Including Loras to prevent her from marrying him, with the help of the King. It will be Jaime's doing and it will be him to get the blame of the failure at protecting her son in her eyes. And his trusting and fraternal relationship with captive Tyrion will be another ocean opening in the Lannister family.

Cersei and Jaime will find themselves at different sides of conflicts around other characters too, at the start of next season: Cersei will support Joffreys and the Tyrrells in the need of interrogating or inculpating Brienne of Renly's death. Jaime will protect the knight woman, or at least try.

So I feel Jaime has things to do in the capital next season, even if most of them are part of a personal motivations build up and not of a bigger picture action mark.

And there is Sansa's dilemma, which is very problematic, but for this very reason has the chance of end up being good television.

[six]

On a quite non related matter: Cersei and Jaime will still wok together next season, to put up a trustworthy and fuctional Royal Guard. Including Loras to prevent her from marrying him, with the help of the King. It will be Jaime's doing and it will be him to get the blame of the failure at protecting her son in her eyes. And his trusting and fraternal relationship with captive Tyrion will be another ocean opening in the Lannister family.

Cersei and Jaime will find themselves at different sides of conflicts around other characters too, at the start of next season: Cersei will support Joffreys and the Tyrrells in the need of interrogating or inculpating Brienne of Renly's death. Jaime will protect the knight woman, or at least try.

So I feel Jaime has things to do in the capital next season, even if most of them are part of a personal motivations build up and not of a bigger picture action mark.

And there is Sansa's dilemma, which is very problematic, but for this very reason has the chance of end up being good television.

BiB 1: Is this happening? I thought they made a point in saying Loras doesn't believe Brienne did. When Loras told Margaery about it, she answered "you know she (Brienne) did not kill him". Obviously, that doesn't necessarily mean Loras will not accuse her, but I'm not sure how likely it is.

BIB: it's problematic, but I don't know if it's problematic for the right reasons. Now that Sansa has lost everyone because of the Lannisters she's probably dying to escape KL more than ever... They need to play it right. Mostly I just can't imagine Brienne leaving Sansa in this position. But if she's jailed I guess she can do nothing to help Sansa...

[Montey14]

More importantly, is he just going to sit around for 4 episodes and do nothing to try and free Sansa?

This is a very important oversight that HBO has made....he swore to send Sansa back....even if he neglects his promise...does he keep Brienne from fulfulling her oath as well.....

[six]

This is a very important oversight that HBO has made....he swore to send Sansa back....even if he neglects his promise...does he keep Brienne from fulfulling her oath as well.....

I agree. Even if we take into consideration the fact Sansa is now married to Tyrion so she's not free, and also she hasn't got a place to go to, she still has an aunt and she's clearly an hostage who's been married against her wishes. The oath is a big deal, for Jaime or Brienne to just shrug it off doesn't make sense and it's OOC, too.

[The Dorne Ultimatum]

It makes more sense for Jaime to be at the Purple Wedding, in reality.

In the book, Tyrion tells him that he killed Joffrey, right? Well if Jaime is there, not only will it heighten the drama as it will perhaps prove to Tywin once and for all that he is Joffrey's father (I can already imagine Cersei holding the dying Joffrey in her arms, and Jaime and Tywin, at opposite ends of the hall, exchanging a knowing look), but it will also make more sense in him aiding Tyrion in his escape from King's Landing.

[six]

Why would Cersei think Tyrion did it though? She's so chummy with him this season, it's hard to imagine she would accuse him like in the books.

[maria underfoot]

They need to keep the Kettleblacks! What else is Jaime going to chant constantly about when thinking about Cersei cheating on him?

I KNOW!!! I hope they stick to the degradation of their relationship. I said somewhere above that I thought the scene was beautiful, and it was, in the sense that the actors worked excellently with what they were given and that the music was nice. But I agree that it doesn't capture the essence of their relationship.

And people say this is minor, but it actually creates lots of problems, which in turn will make Jaime or Brienne or both look bad.

-If Brienne isn't imprisoned (because apparently ser Loras doesn't blame her), she won't fulfill her oath.

-If she is imprisoned, Jaime will be the bad guy, who allowed for her to be imprisoned, and for Sansa to stay in KG

-If they work together to find a way to get Sansa out, well, how will that work? LF HAS to be the one with her in the Vale. Lysa wouldn't accept anyone else.

[Katydid]

That was actually my exact problem with the scene. This is supposed to be a twisted, wrong, perverse relationship, and there should be at least an undertone of something forbidden or "not right" going on. Instead, it was like a typical romantic homecoming of the wounded hero to his long-suffering wife.

I didn't get that at all. Cersei just sat there dumbfounded, then a slow look of realization and horror crept into her face as she noted his stump. He looked down at it, then back at her, and I got a feeling of foreboding, like "yeah...everything is different" between them.

Cersei can no longer rely on Jaime's protection, and that is probably the first thing that popped into her head. Nothing about how the loss of his hand would affect him - - only her interests.

A typical romantic homecoming would have been for Cersei to burst into tears and/or run into his arms, but that's not her, and that's not their relationship. Even in the book, she just sits there, and Jaime thinks to himself "she has never come to me." It's a very controlling relationship, and I hope they delve more into it next season as it begins to unravel. Poor Jaime, he truly has lost everything he ever knew.

Lucky he has Brienne now. :)

[Gendels Children]

SO MANY UNANSWERED QUESTIONS! seriously! I have no idea what they are going to do with Jaime, and its freaking me out :P

[Versiroth]

Why would Cersei think Tyrion did it though? She's so chummy with him this season, it's hard to imagine she would accuse him like in the books.

Tyrion has only threatened Joffrey's like like two or three times this season... why wouldn't she believe it was him? Especially after he pours Joffrey's wine and then pours out the dregs on the floor?

[WingedMan]

i am assuming that Ser Dontos will appear in Season 4 and smuggle Sansa out. Joff's wedding must be episode 2 or 3 next year. I cannot wait. Jaime though, should not be back yet.

I was thinking about this, but show viewers probably won't remember Dontos anymore - he hasn't appeared after Sansa rescued him.

I just thought something: now that both Jaime and Brienne are at KL, do you guys think it's possible that Brienne helps Sansa to escape? Of course, unknowingly leading her to LF? And then she starts her journey to find her - I really hate if this one's going to be cut.

[six]

I didn't get that at all. Cersei just sat there dumbfounded, then a slow look of realization and horror crept into her face as she noted his stump. He looked down at it, then back at her, and I got a feeling of foreboding, like "yeah...everything is different" between them.

Cersei can no longer rely on Jaime's protection, and that is probably the first thing that popped into her head. Nothing about how the loss of his hand would affect him - - only her interests.

A typical romantic homecoming would have been for Cersei to burst into tears and/or run into his arms, but that's not her, and that's not their relationship. Even in the book, she just sits there, and Jaime thinks to himself "she has never come to me." It's a very controlling relationship, and I hope they delve more into it next season as it begins to unravel. Poor Jaime, he truly has lost everything he ever knew.

Lucky he has Brienne now. :)

Compared to the books, it was an emotional reunion. There was nothing twisted in it. Also, I'm not sure everybody caught the horror in Cersei's face- I personally didn't see it either, I saw concern and shock, and the only element that made me think something was not quite right was Jaime looking at his stump, and the fact she didn't jump in his arms immediately. But I've seen lots of posters saying she had a look of love, and that they think they'll just carry on from where they left. It was quite ambiguous, and not at all like in the books.

Tyrion has only threatened Joffrey's like like two or three times this season... why wouldn't she believe it was him? Especially after he pours Joffrey's wine and then pours out the dregs on the floor?

Because this season she's not hostile towards him, she's even sharing her feelings with him. It would surprise me if she would immediately jump to the conclusion it was Tyrion. In the books she does that because she hates Tyrion's guts. In the show, in season 3, apparently they're reasonably amicable.

[BlackStark]

I was thinking about this, but show viewers probably won't remember Dontos anymore - he hasn't appeared after Sansa rescued him.

I just thought something: now that both Jaime and Brienne are at KL, do you guys think it's possible that Brienne helps Sansa to escape? Of course, unknowingly leading her to LF? And then she starts her journey to find her - I really hate if this one's going to be cut.

Having Dontos as her rescuer doesn't work because the writers have done nothing to establish any connection or relationship or any reason why Sansa would trust him.

I don't see how they could have her help Sansa escape...Brienne knows less about King's Landing than Sansa does and given the way Brienne shadowed Catelyn when she was protecting her I cannot see Brienne leaving Sansa's side if trouble was going down or that Sansa would just abandon her last true connection to her mother in the form of Brienne.

It is almost like the writers have not actually read the books and don't understand how an unnecessary change (an appearance by Jaime and Brienne in KL in the season finale) can throw off the entire story progression. Was a single scene with Lena Headley and NCW really that essential?