R+L=J v. 52

[Alia of the knife]

I would like to add Aemon's interaction between Jon as a clue.

-

Game of Thrones, Jon VIII

Why did Aemon choose to reveal himself to Jon (and possibly ONLY Jon?). Maybe Aemon could sense the Targaryen blood in Jon?

• Also Bran's vision of a Dragon rising from Winterfell.
  

-We have seen this kind of Vision before: at Whitefalls.

The Mystery Knight

Daemon II's vision was not about a dragon hatching from an egg, but about a metaphorical dragon in Aegon V Targaryen

This could be a case of JON Snow being the Dragon rising from the Winterfell crypts as a Targaryen. Jon was raised in Winterfell,

and if R+L= J is TRUE,

This is more likely than an actual dragon underneath Winterfell.

Thanks for providing those quotes and putting things in context, because I agree with all the above.

I do agree that Aemon "knows" of, or "sees" who Jon is, (remember one of the allegories for blindness is truly being able to SEE). However, I'm sure that Aemon realizes Jon doesn't know who he is yet, therefore he would never be able to say anything beyond perhaps pointing Jon in the right direction.

The various examples you gave of the different Targaryens down the ages also follows the idea of Martin telling a story within a story.

I also agree in both the analogy of Jon as the Ice Dragon, and the possibility of an actual dragon existing within the confines of Winterfell. When you think of an evironment where there are natural hot springs, and hot water coursing through the walls of Winterfell, that could very well provide the right conditions for a creature like that to thrive and live.

Perhaps an egg was buried with Lyanna for Jon, and of course the fire freed it, which Bran saw, which correlates with and foreshadows Jons "death" allowing not only the boy to be killed and the man born, but awakening the dragon as well, because I think it's going to be a very different Jon that wakes up- VERY different.

[Ygrain]

Thanks for providing those quotes and putting things in context, because I agree with all the above.

I do agree that Aemon "knows" of, or "sees" who Jon is, (remember one of the allegories for blindness is truly being able to SEE). However, I'm sure that Aemon realizes Jon doesn't know who he is yet, therefore he would never be able to say anything beyond perhaps pointing Jon in the right direction.

The various examples you gave of the different Targaryens down the ages also follows the idea of Martin telling a story within a story.

I also agree in both the analogy of Jon as the Ice Dragon, and the possibility of an actual dragon existing within the confines of Winterfell. When you think of an evironment where there are natural hot springs, and hot water coursing through the walls of Winterfell, that could very well provide the right conditions for a creature like that to thrive and live.

Perhaps an egg was buried with Lyanna for Jon, and of course the fire freed it, which Bran saw, which correlates with and foreshadows Jons "death" allowing not only the boy to be killed and the man born, but awakening the dragon as well, because I think it's going to be a very different Jon that wakes up- VERY different.

The fire didn't reach the crypts, though, so there was definitely not the same heat as we saw with Dany.

Also, Jon doesn't have to be transported in coma to Winterfell to be reborn as a dragon there - discovering his true identity in the crypts would still be a "birth" of a new person. The whole vision might work on an even more symbolical level, of a "dragon" (Targ) hiding in Winterfell for a substantial part of his life and his ascension from there meaning merely to end of his coverup identity. - But I do want him to find something in the crypts - preferably, Lyanna's bones wrapped in Rhaegar's cloak with dragon and with a crown of dried roses on her head.

[Booknerd2]

I always liked the blue roses being found in the crypt, due to the amount of times it pops up in the series relating to her and Jon.

Has anyone seen the Torrhen's crown theory and what are your thoughts?

Have to ask the R&L thread...lol!

[_Vendetta]

I'm sure this has been pointed out, but

Jon's immediate reaction to burn the wight?

From the doubts on what to do with the bodies when they were brought in makes me think that the NW had no idea that they would rise again. After that incident (and if they had known before) than they would burn every dead body in sight.

I wouldn't have assumed a man from the cold north would first think to use fire when the wight attacked Mormont.

[Ygrain]

I'm sure this has been pointed out, but

Jon's immediate reaction to burn the wight?

From the doubts on what to do with the bodies when they were brought in makes me think that the NW had no idea that they would rise again. After that incident (and if they had known before) than they would burn every dead body in sight.

I wouldn't have assumed a man from the cold north would first think to use fire when the wight attacked Mormont.

I think there is a considerable information loss throughout the ages, especially among the "kneelers" - a wildling would perhaps know better (see Ygritte asking that her body be burnt).

[The guy from the Vale]

Also, as for the idea to use fire... Jon doesn't get that idea on his own. It's Mormont's raven that screams "Burn!" first. Curious... ;)

[Maxpey]

As much as I enjoy reading about R+L=J and subscribe to it, why did it ever have to reach 52 threads?

Because of people like me that come new to the forum all cocky thinking that they can disprove it, only to get bludgeoned by the old guard. :bowdown:

Then, a whole new crop of cocky doubters come on the forum, and the cycle begins all over again. :P

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I always liked the blue roses being found in the crypt, due to the amount of times it pops up in the series relating to her and Jon.

Has anyone seen the Torrhen's crown theory and what are your thoughts?

Have to ask the R&L thread...lol!

Yes! The butterbumps! theory about Torrhen's crown being in Lyanna's tomb is brilliant. I used to favor an egg, and tbh still think it could be both. But there is a very nice literary sense to it being a crown, since we have a lot of crown symbolism associated with Lyanna, in particular that she is pictured crowned in her statue in the crypt.

[Ser Creighton]

Because of people like me that come new to the forum all cocky thinking that they can disprove it, only to get bludgeoned by the old guard. :bowdown:

Then, a whole new crop of cocky doubters come on the forum, and the cycle begins all over again. :P

Hahahaha, you have not met the Old guard yet, read version one, when you do you will find out by the second post that even that was not the original theory. The original theory was on the old version of this site, and I believe goes back to the late 90's. People like Ran have been talking about it for well over a decade. They almost never post in general. They are the old Gods, an ancient mystery from long ago, we don't even know if they exist anymore or if they ever existed at all.

[Booknerd2]

I just read it today because I have been off for awhile.

My immediate thought was, and I am not sure how in love with it I am or how likely it is, but I was kicking around that maybe he would reinstate the Starks as Kings of the North.

1. For her. For love of her. ( Hey, Henry VIII was known to be generous with his wives' families. Well, until things soured.)

2. So a war didn't break out with the Starks because the Dornish (Martell family) are going to be mighty pissed. The Northmen might have been appeased with this independence. Well, I am sure they might have to offer banners or taxes or something.

3. It would help her and soothe reservations because maybe it would be a token to Rickard and her bros that he is serious about her. It was be more than reaching out a hand of peace of course. I mean he had to know her family was going to be very angry.

I mean, did he just give her a pretty crown to wear? Ok, I know it means more than that, but Lyanna, like her niece, Arya, would not care for a bauble to wear. I wonder if that was part of it, when he became king in the future and he told her that.

Instead her nephew Robb reinstates it. Rebellion to the crown, as it is viewed by the South, of course but...

[Alia of the knife]

The fire didn't reach the crypts, though, so there was definitely not the same heat as we saw with Dany.

Also, Jon doesn't have to be transported in coma to Winterfell to be reborn as a dragon there - discovering his true identity in the crypts would still be a "birth" of a new person. The whole vision might work on an even more symbolical level, of a "dragon" (Targ) hiding in Winterfell for a substantial part of his life and his ascension from there meaning merely to end of his coverup identity. - But I do want him to find something in the crypts - preferably, Lyanna's bones wrapped in Rhaegar's cloak with dragon and with a crown of dried roses on her head.

Also agree with your observations on the Ice Dragon and what could be in Lyannas tomb, but I'm just trying to reconcile the reason Martin would include this particular geological attribute to Winterfell, particularly thinking of Danys hot baths.

Where would a dragon be most comfortable? Wherever there was a "hot tub" :P

And in terms of the fire, I was thinking more along the lines that not just physical heat would have affected any potential creature, but just the act of the destruction of Winterfell would have allowed it to escape.

Formal definition of a "Hot Spring" from Wiki.:

Sources of heat [edit]

"The water issuing from a hot spring is heated by geothermal heat, i.e., heat from the Earth's mantle. In general, the temperature of rocks within the earth increases with depth. The rate of temperature increase with depth is known as the geothermal gradient. If water percolates deeply enough into the crust, it will be heated as it comes into contact with hot rocks. The water from hot springs in non-volcanic areas is heated in this manner." - Wikipedia

So it must have been powerful enough to cause the hot waters to travel through the walls of Winterfell.

I always liked the blue roses being found in the crypt, due to the amount of times it pops up in the series relating to her and Jon.

Has anyone seen the Torrhen's crown theory and what are your thoughts?

Have to ask the R&L thread...lol!

Love that concept as well, and it would certainly explain where Robb would have gotten his crown.

[Booknerd2]

Wait, I'm confused or I am forgetting something.

If the crown was buried with Lyanna in theory, how does Robb get that crown? Though it was made for him and hers is with her in the tomb?

[J. Stargaryen]

Yes! The butterbumps! theory about Torrhen's crown being in Lyanna's tomb is brilliant. I used to favor an egg, and tbh still think it could be both. But there is a very nice literary sense to it being a crown, since we have a lot of crown symbolism associated with Lyanna, in particular that she is pictured crowned in her statue in the crypt.

I think this is only in Ned's dream from Eddard XIII:

He was walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell, as he had walked a thousand times before. The Kings of Winter watched him pass with eyes of ice, and the direwolves at their feet turned their great stone heads and snarled. Last of all, he came to the tomb where his father slept, with Brandon and Lyanna beside him. “Promise me, Ned, “ Lyanna’s statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

I only point this out because the wiki claims that Lyanna's statue had a "garland" of blue roses, but that's not true. A word search of "garland" comes up only once in AGoT. From the blue winter rose wiki page:

Lyanna Stark

• The statue of Lyanna Stark in the crypt under Winterfell had a garland of blue winter roses. ^[4]
  
• The crown of the queen of beauty Prince Rhaegar Targaryen gave Lyanna Stark at the Tourney at Harrenhal was made of blue winter roses. ^[5]
  
• In Ned's dream about the Tower of Joy blue rose petals symbolized Lyanna. ^[6]
  
• Lyanna loved the scent of winter roses.^[7]
  

[Maxpey]

Hahahaha, you have not met the Old guard yet, read version one, when you do you will find out by the second post that even that was not the original theory. The original theory was on the old version of this site, and I believe goes back to the late 90's. People like Ran have been talking about it for well over a decade. They almost never post in general. They are the old Gods, an ancient mystery from long ago, we don't even know if they exist anymore or if they ever existed at all.

The Old Gods; mayhaps I will meet them someday. :bowdown:

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

I think this is only in Ned's dream from Eddard XIII:

I only point this out because the wiki claims that Lyanna's statue had a "garland" of blue roses, but that's not true. A word search of "garland" comes up only once in AGoT. From the blue winter rose wiki page:

In Theon's dream (Clash, ch.56) he sees Lyanna with a "crown of pale blue roses" Because he refers in this section to "faces he had never known in life, faces he had only seen in stone" I assume the statue actually depicts her with a crown of roses. There may be other such references in the Bran crypt scenes, but I'm not in a position to search at the moment.

I think this depiction is significant, as it carries a major theme of her final years of life (the crown of blue winter roses) into eternity, chiseled in stone. Surely not an accident? I see it as further proof of the legitimacy of her relationship with Rhaegar.

As far as why give her Torrhen's crown... A gift of honor, further recognition of her status as his Queen (his "Queen in the North") or possibly it was meant for their child all along.

[nirolo]

So waiting for the season finale, I decided to pull together all the Hightower references I could find.

Here it is:

AGoT

Quote 1

Bran was going to be a knight himself someday, one of the Kingsguard. Old Nan said they were the finest swords in all the realm. There were only seven of them, and they wore white armor and had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king. Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another’s swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold.

-- Bran II

Quote 2

Ser Gerold Hightower himself heard my vows... to ward the king with all my strength... to give my blood for his... I fought beside the White Bull and Prince Lewyn of Dorne... beside Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.

-- Barristan, Sansa V

ACoK

Quote 3

“The first time I beheld her, I thought she was a goddess come to earth, the Maid herself made flesh. Her birth was far above my own. She was the youngest daughter of Lord Leyton Hightower of Oldtown. The White Bull who commanded your father’s Kingsguard was her greatuncle. The Hightowers are an ancient family, very rich and very proud.”

“And loyal,” Dany said. “I remember, Viserys said the Hightowers were among those who stayed true to my father.”

“That’s so,” he admitted.

-- Jorah Mormont, Dany I

Quote 4

“As for Lord Rickard, the steel of his breastplate turned cherry-red before the end, and his gold melted off his spurs and dripped down into the fire. I stood at the foot of the Iron Throne in my white armor and white cloak, filling my head with thoughts of Cersei. After, Gerold Hightower himself took me aside and said to me, ‘You swore a vow to guard the king, not to judge him.’ That was the White Bull, loyal to the end and a better man than me, all agree.”

-- Jaime, Cat VII

ASoS

Quote 5

“We all swore oaths,” said Ser Arthur Dayne, so sadly.

The shades dismounted from their ghostly horses. When they drew their longswords, it made not a sound. “He was going to burn the city,” Jaime said. “To leave Robert only ashes.”

“He was your king,” said Darry.

“You swore to keep him safe,” said Whent.

“And the children, them as well,” said Prince Lewyn.

Prince Rhaegar burned with a cold light, now white, now red, now dark. “I left my wife and children in your hands.”

“I never thought he’d hurt them.” Jaime’s sword was burning less brightly now. “I was with the

king...

“Killing the king,” said Ser Arthur. “Cutting his throat,” said Prince Lewyn.

“The king you had sworn to die for,” said the White Bull.

-- Jaime VI

Quote 6

The chair behind the table was old black oak, with cushions of blanched cowhide, the leather worn thin. Worn by the bony arse of Barristan the Bold and Ser Gerold Hightower before him, by Prince Aemon the Dragonknight, Ser Ryam Redwyne, and the Demon of Darry, by Ser Duncan the Tall and the Pale Griffin Alyn Connington. How could the Kingslayer belong in such exalted company?

-- Jaime VIII

[J. Stargaryen]

In Theon's dream (Clash, ch.56) he sees Lyanna with a "crown of pale blue roses" Because he refers in this section to "faces he had never known in life, faces he had only seen in stone" I assume the statue actually depicts her with a crown of roses. There may be other such references in the Bran crypt scenes, but I'm not in a position to search at the moment.

I think this depiction is significant, as it carries a major theme of her final years of life (the crown of blue winter roses) into eternity, chiseled in stone. Surely not an accident? I see it as further proof of the legitimacy of her relationship with Rhaegar.

As far as why give her Torrhen's crown... A gift of honor, further recognition of her status as his Queen (his "Queen in the North") or possibly it was meant for their child all along.

Theon also sees her wearing a white dress, spattered with gore.

As for her statue wearing a crown of winter roses, if so, Robert never mentions it when he visits the crypts. Not to mention, but Ned is way too careful, imo, to have Lyanna's statue associated with Rhaegar.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Theon also sees her wearing a white dress, spattered with gore.

As for her statue wearing a crown of winter roses, if so, Robert never mentions it when he visits the crypts. Not to mention, but Ned is way too careful, imo, to have Lyanna's statue associated with Rhaegar.

With limited search capabilities at the moment I'm too lazy to troll back through several threads, but some time ago (late 40s I think) I posted an analysis of Theon's dream here. In it I illustrated that the dream is based on what Theon knows. When he recognizes dead Starks that he has only "seen in stone" his subconscious would possibly add details based on his knowledge of those people. For instance, what he knows about Lyanna is probably very similar to what Bran thinks he knows- that she was kidnapped by Rhaegar Targaryen, raped and held captive and ultimately (mysteriously) died in what is probably assumed to be a violent manner, thus the gore spattered gown. Certainly no one at Winterfell knows the exact manner of her death, so some assumptions on that point are to be expected. It is not to be expected that Theon's subconscious would add details he knows nothing about, the rest of the dream illustrates that quite clearly.

What we know for certain about Bran's knowledge (and therefore probably the other Stark children, Theon included) is that he had never heard the story of the Harrenhal Tournament. Since it is highly unlikely that Ned shared the details of the ToJ with anyone, there is no reason for any of his family to associate blue winter roses with Rhaegar Targaryen, although it does seem to be common knowledge that Lyanna was "fond of flowers", blue winter roses in particular. Even people who were at the ToH (ie Robert) might not automatically make the connection since, as you have pointed out, Rhaegar laid the crown in her lap rather than placing it on her head.

Anyway, I see no possibility of Theon having knowledge of the crown of roses from the Tourney or the association of roses with R+L. Ergo, I must assume that the image Theon sees in his dream comes from his knowledge of the face in stone. I don't understand why taking that detail at face value would be an issue.

[Striker83]

I don't know if these has been mentioned before, but I always thought what Jon said in ASOS as clues of who he really is and things that might happen in the furure.

The quote:

So many stars, he thought as he trudged up the slope through pines and firs and ash. Maester Luwin had taught him his stars as a boy in Winterfell; he had learned the names of the twelve houses of heaven and the rulers of each; he could find the seven wanderers sacred to the Faith; he was old friends with the Ice Dragon, the Shadowcat, the Moonmaid, and the Sword of the Morning.

- The Ice Dragon = Jon

- The Shadowcat = Arya

- The Moonmaid = Sansa

- Sword of the Morning = ?

This might be a parallel to Aegon and his sister, because I think that it will be Arya and Sansa that will help Jon lead the realm against the White Walkers and maybe if they survive rule the kingdom of the north, while Rickon grows into the age necessary to rule. Arya and Sansa have similar personalities to Rhaenys and Visenya. About the Sword of the Morning it might be Arthur Dayne since he die protecting Jon or a new one that will become Jon right hand.

[J. Stargaryen]

With limited search capabilities at the moment I'm too lazy to troll back through several threads, but some time ago (late 40s I think) I posted an analysis of Theon's dream here. In it I illustrated that the dream is based on what Theon knows. When he recognizes dead Starks that he has only "seen in stone" his subconscious would possibly add details based on his knowledge of those people. For instance, what he knows about Lyanna is probably very similar to what Bran thinks he knows- that she was kidnapped by Rhaegar Targaryen, raped and held captive and ultimately (mysteriously) died in what is probably assumed to be a violent manner, thus the gore spattered gown. Certainly no one at Winterfell knows the exact manner of her death, so some assumptions on that point are to be expected. It is not to be expected that Theon's subconscious would details he knows nothing about, the rest of the dream illustrates that quite clearly.

What we know for certain about Bran's knowledge (and therefore probably the other Stark children, Theon included) is that he had never heard the story of the Harrenhal Tournament. Since it is highly unlikely that Ned shared the details of the ToJ with anyone, there is no reason for any of his family to associate blue winter roses with Rhaegar Targaryen, although it does seem to be common knowledge that Lyanna was "fond of flowers", blue winter roses in particular. Even people who were at the ToH (ie Robert) might not automatically make the connection since, as you have pointed out, Rhaegar laid the crown in her lap rather than placing it on her head.

Anyway, I see no possibility of Theon having knowledge of the crown of roses from the Tourney or the association of roses with R+L. Ergo, I must assume that the image Theon sees in his dream comes from his knowledge of the face in stone. I don't understand why taking that detail at face value would be an issue.

What about "the moment when all the smiles died," at the Harrenhal Tourney? I missed it the first read, but I see you addressed this incident in the next sentence, so I'll just say that's how Theon would know.

The only "issue" is that it's incorrect, as far as we know. It may be that her statue did have a crown of roses on it, but it never says so, aside from Ned's dream in ch. 47. Which, again, is not the same thing as her actual statue wearing such a crown.

Here's the part from Theon's dream:

But there were others with faces he had never known in life, faces he had seen only in stone. The slim, sad girl who wore a crown of pale blue roses and a white gown spattered with gore could only be Lyanna.

I'm sorry if this negatively impacts analysis you've done, but I'm just pointing out what I believe to be an error. As far as I can tell, there's absolutely no textual evidence that Lyanna's statue includes the rose crown.

When I came across this question myself recently I gave myself a common sense quiz; i.e., would Ned really instruct the stone mason to include a crown of winter roses, like the one Rhaegar gave her, on her statue? Seems unlikely, right? If it did, I have a difficult time believing that Robert wouldn't have mentioned it when he visited the crypts. Anything Rhaegar related makes him rage.