R+L=J v. 52

[Citadel_acolyte]

Haha well it's not that simple but yes, in the grand scheme of things I think it's quite possible Jon becomes a dragon rider at some point in the story. Perhaps maybe even gaining complete control over one of the dragons through his warging ability...

I subscribe to the theory that John is one head of the three-headed dragon. Therefore, the dragon he will ultimately ride has already hatched and is in Dani's care. It is obvious that three dragons are too much for one Targ to handle (hence she has become a pretty terrible mother of dragons since they have grown larger than golden retreivers) and at some point I think this will, at least in part, motivate Dani's return to Westeros. I do think that John will discover some proof of his identity in the crypt, but I don't think it will involve finding an egg or hatching it in the hot springs. I think the hotsprings are symbolic of Winterfell's unique position as a place of both ice and fire and therefore a location of importance in the battle between these forces that will ensue. The heat that bubbles up at WF may also indicate that this is a place where dragons can survive and thrive.

The question I grapple with is who is the third head of the dragon. I am convinced that it is not Aegon who is actually a red herring. I believe that another character will be *shockingly* revealed to be the third dragon. I have a delicious theory about this...

[Alia of the knife]

I subscribe to the theory that John is one head of the three-headed dragon. Therefore, the dragon he will ultimately ride has already hatched and is in Dani's care. It is obvious that three dragons are too much for one Targ to handle (hence she has become a pretty terrible mother of dragons since they have grown larger than golden retreivers) and at some point I think this will, at least in part, motivate Dani's return to Westeros. I do think that John will discover some proof of his identity in the crypt, but I don't think it will involve finding an egg or hatching it in the hot springs. I think the hotsprings are symbolic of Winterfell's unique position as a place of both ice and fire and therefore a location of importance in the battle between these forces that will ensue. The heat that bubbles up at WF may also indicate that this is a place where dragons can survive and thrive.

The question I grapple with is who is the third head of the dragon. I am convinced that it is not Aegon who is actually a red herring. I believe that another character will be *shockingly* revealed to be the third dragon. I have a delicious theory about this...

Good question, but whoever is behind dragon number three will indeed be a surprise as Martin himself said that it need not be a Targaryen,.

Within the context of that idea, Aegon could still be the third head as a Blackfyre, because he is still a "dragon," just not Rhaegars.

However, I do think it's a good chance it will be someone completely different.

[FrozenFire3]

Wandering the wasteland of Westeros.org I think Kierkegaard and Thomas Wolfe may be wrong, you CAN go home again (to the RLJ family) whenever there's Kundera reference to ground you.

...and I wouldn't dismiss Kierkegaard either, for his and Rhaegar's mistress are one and the same ;)

Besides my other numerous circle of acquaintances I have one more intimate confidant-my melancholy. In the midst of my joy, in the midst of my work, she waves to me, calls me to one side, even though physically I stay put. My melancholy is the most faithful mistress I have known, what wonder, then, that I love her in return.

This reminds me of the theories that the Holy Grail is actually the bloodline. Sangreal= sang real= Blood royal

I've postulated Lyanna as the Grail, since another way to look at it is grail= cauldron= womb.

I think the bloodline idea is very interesting because, while it's hidden from sight, I have a feeling the "blood royal" is weaving around the story in ways yet to be revealed

:drool:

Yes! :bowdown: The cup of life. Lyanna literally carries in her womb fire and blood = sang real.

On a side note, I must admit that in spite of all its limits, the Da Vinci's Code has had the merit of making symbology accessible and kind of mainstream LOL

How did I miss this!

Great analysis, I agree.

The blood "magic" may have aided in the hatching of the dragons, but I think there is a significance to Dany that is the driving factor in the hatching of those dragons, particularly her blood.

As I've said before, I think it's the dragon females that are the ones with the power to hatch them, but as with the men, not all female Targaryens are "dragons," just as the men aren't, hence the irony of the females being set aside in the line of succession.

And it would be the same with Lyanna given she has the blood royal of the Kings of Winter with their own particular powers.

I really needed this ;)

Let's add a few tassels to the infamous Tristifer's mosaic (http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry4286891), courtesy of the ASOS epilogue.

Merrett Frey is heading to - his doom in - Oldstones. There is snow on the road. The royal simbology of the place is reiterated by the following passage:

The curtain wall of Oldstones had once encircled the brow of the hill like the crown on a king's head.

Close to the ruins of the castle ward,

fallen leaves lay thick upon the ground, like soldiers after some great slaughter.

Reference to the Trident? Surely the metaphor contains strong literary echoes. One is Ungaretti's ermetic poem Soldiers:

Here we are

like leaves on

trees, in Autumn

But the tradition of comparing Autumn leaves to fallen soldiers goes all way back to the elegiac poet Semonides of Amorgos and to Homerus.

Let's keep on reading:

A man in patched, faded greens was sitting crosslegged atop a weathered stone sepulcher, fingering the string of a woodharp. The music was soft and sad.

Here we go again. Sadness, music and a harp atop Tristifer's sepulcher. The allegory is complete. Crown, harp, roses, warhammer, snow and a direwolf. Here rests (metaphorically) a man shrouded in sadness from within (Tristifer = he who carries sadness) and without (the music).

There is something more, and this is where my post embraces yours, Alia. Merrett knew that song:

High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts...

Down in the crypts of the king who are gone, Lyanna would dance with her ghost... We know ghosts inhabits the crypts (Bran). We know there rest kings who are gone, the Kings of Winter (blood royal, ancient powers to reawaken and all). We also know Duncan gave up his crown for Jenny as Rhaegar involuntarily but ultimately did for Lyanna...

[Ygrain]

...and I wouldn't dismiss Kierkegaard either, for his and Rhaegar's mistress are one and the same ;)

Besides my other numerous circle of acquaintances I have one more intimate confidant-my melancholy. In the midst of my joy, in the midst of my work, she waves to me, calls me to one side, even though physically I stay put. My melancholy is the most faithful mistress I have known, what wonder, then, that I love her in return.

Yes! :bowdown: The cup of life. Lyanna literally carries in her womb fire and blood = sang real.

On a side note, I must admit that in spite of all its limits, the Da Vinci's Code has had the merit of making symbology accessible and kind of mainstream LOL

I really needed this ;)

Let's add a few tassels to the infamous Tristifer's mosaic (http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry4286891), courtesy of the ASOS epilogue.

Merrett Frey is heading to - his doom in - Oldstones. There is snow on the road. The royal simbology of the place is reiterated by the following passage:

The curtain wall of Oldstones had once encircled the brow of the hill like the crown on a king's head.

Close to the ruins of the castle ward,

fallen leaves lay thick upon the ground, like soldiers after some great slaughter.

Reference to the Trident? Surely the metaphor contains strong literary echoes. One is Ungaretti's ermetic poem Soldiers:

Here we are

like leaves on

trees, in Autumn

But the tradition of comparing Autumn leaves to fallen soldiers goes all way back to the elegiac poet Semonides of Amorgos and to Homerus.

Let's keep on reading:

A man in patched, faded greens was sitting crosslegged atop a weathered stone sepulcher, fingering the string of a woodharp. The music was soft and sad.

Here we go again. Sadness, music and a harp atop Tristifer's sepulcher. The allegory is complete. Crown, harp, roses, warhammer, snow and a direwolf. Here rests (metaphorically) a man shrouded in sadness from within (Tristifer = he who carries sadness) and without (the music).

There is something more, and this is where my post embraces yours, Alia. Merrett knew that song:

High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts...

Down in the crypts of the king who are gone, Lyanna would dance with her ghost... We know ghosts inhabits the crypts (Bran). We know there rest kings who are gone, the Kings of Winter (blood royal, ancient powers to reawaken and all). We also know Duncan gave up his crown for Jenny as Rhaegar involuntarily but ultimately did for Lyanna...

:bowdown:

Somehow, I entirely missed the Jeyne connection (I guess the crappy translation might play a role here), and the analogy between Duncan and Rhaegar is even apter than you say - both died as well as the woman they loved, and if the betrayal mentioned in connection with Summerhall was truly a response of a house spurned because of Jenny, then we could say that both died because of the woman they loved.

[FrozenFire3]

:bowdown:

Somehow, I entirely missed the Jeyne connection (I guess the crappy translation might play a role here), and the analogy between Duncan and Rhaegar is even apter than you say - both died as well as the woman they loved, and if the betrayal mentioned in connection with Summerhall was truly a response of a house spurned because of Jenny, then we could say that both died because of the woman they loved.

That's why I love this forum. Pure brilliancy.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Yes! :bowdown: The cup of life. Lyanna literally carries in her womb fire and blood = sang real.

On a side note, I must admit that in spite of all its limits, the Da Vinci's Code has had the merit of making symbology accessible and kind of mainstream LOL

I agree. Highly simplified, and yet it certainly had that merit.

Of course, most scholars dismiss the sang real interpretation in favor of san graal, where the grail is a vessel of sorts. However, there is obviously the case to be made for the womb as vessel, which bridges the two interpretations.

Then too, there is the Welsh story of Peredur whose grail features, instead of a cup full of blood, a platter serving up a hero's head. Peredur is one of three Welsh Arthurian tales closely related to the Mabinogian. A step into that tale brings us to Bran the Blessed, whose name means "crow" in Welsh and who instructs his followers to return his severed head to his homeland when he is mortally wounded in what is basically a massive clusterbomb of insult and betrayal.

Now which Westerosi family associated with this blood royal line of inquiry also features strong overtones of Welsh myth, an association with crows, a founding King named Bran and more than its share of severed heads? ;)

(Bonus points to any British compatriots who can identify the legendary resting place of Bran's head...)

I really needed this ;)

Let's add a few tassels to the infamous Tristifer's mosaic (http://asoiaf.wester...20#entry4286891), courtesy of the ASOS epilogue.

Merrett Frey is heading to - his doom in - Oldstones. There is snow on the road. The royal simbology of the place is reiterated by the following passage:

The curtain wall of Oldstones had once encircled the brow of the hill like the crown on a king's head.

Close to the ruins of the castle ward,

fallen leaves lay thick upon the ground, like soldiers after some great slaughter.

Reference to the Trident? Surely the metaphor contains strong literary echoes. One is Ungaretti's ermetic poem Soldiers:

Here we are

like leaves on

trees, in Autumn

But the tradition of comparing Autumn leaves to fallen soldiers goes all way back to the elegiac poet Semonides of Amorgos and to Homerus.

Let's keep on reading:

A man in patched, faded greens was sitting crosslegged atop a weathered stone sepulcher, fingering the string of a woodharp. The music was soft and sad.

Here we go again. Sadness, music and a harp atop Tristifer's sepulcher. The allegory is complete. Crown, harp, roses, warhammer, snow and a direwolf. Here rests (metaphorically) a man shrouded in sadness from within (Tristifer = he who carries sadness) and without (the music).

There is something more, and this is where my post embraces yours, Alia. Merrett knew that song:

High in the halls of the kings who are gone, Jenny would dance with her ghosts...

Down in the crypts of the king who are gone, Lyanna would dance with her ghost... We know ghosts inhabits the crypts (Bran). We know there rest kings who are gone, the Kings of Winter (blood royal, ancient powers to reawaken and all). We also know Duncan gave up his crown for Jenny as Rhaegar involuntarily but ultimately did for Lyanna...

:bowdown:

...And you never fail to amaze me. The Tristifer "tapestry" just keeps becoming more brilliant and

Duncan/Jenny:Rhaegar/Lyanna is a parallel worthy of much further exploration!

Eta- @Ygrain, sweet catch on the possible connection between Summerhall and RR. We all know GRRM likes his stories within the story as little Easter eggs. I'm liking this analogy more and more :)

[SaltpansResident]

Hi, all, I hope you'll be patient with this n00b... I totally accept the R + L = J thing, I totally do, but I have to ask... WHY? They both sound like intelligent and kind people, so... wouldn't it have made more sense for Lyanna to have left a note on the pillow or something ("Totes in luv with crown prince, off to have baby, shhhh don't tell Robert LOL") or even for Rhaegar to have mentioned it to Robert before they started whaling on each other at the Ruby Ford? I mean, what was the point of having the entire country erupt into civil war over a mistake? (EDIT: i.e. a mistaken belief that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna, rather than its being a consensual thing).

It's totally plausible that Jon would need to stay hidden after the Lannisters started killing children, of course.

[Ygrain]

Hi, all, I hope you'll be patient with this n00b... I totally accept the R + L = J thing, I totally do, but I have to ask... WHY? They both sound like intelligent and kind people, so... wouldn't it have made more sense for Lyanna to have left a note on the pillow or something ("Totes in luv with crown prince, off to have baby, shhhh don't tell Robert LOL") or even for Rhaegar to have mentioned it to Robert before they started whaling on each other at the Ruby Ford? I mean, what was the point of having the entire country erupt into civil war over a mistake? (EDIT: i.e. a mistaken belief that Rhaegar had kidnapped Lyanna, rather than its being a consensual thing).

It's totally plausible that Jon would need to stay hidden after the Lannisters started killing children, of course.

But we do not know if she left any note or not, because the information is not there. Some of u find it suspicious that Brandon goes into such a rage over the supposedly kidnapped and raped sister, yet his primary concern is to kill Rhaegar and not release her; in fact, from what we know from the brief account of his rash action, Lyanna is not mentioned at all until Aerys starts enquiring what it was all about.

Furthermore, Rhaegar and Lyanna eloping was not what started the war - it dit set off the events eventually leading to it, but the war started over Aerys' order to have Ned and Robert beheaded, which Jon Arryn rejected and raised his banners. Since that point on, it was no longer about Lyanna but about vassals defying their sovereign who had to fight or lose their heads.

[Ygritte]

No Kings or anyone with king's blood was killed during the Sack of WF so I dont think any dragons were awoken.

Some possible king's blood that is present: if the younger miller's boy is in fact Theon's bastard.

[SaltpansResident]

But we do not know if she left any note or not, because the information is not there. Some of u find it suspicious that Brandon goes into such a rage over the supposedly kidnapped and raped sister, yet his primary concern is to kill Rhaegar and not release her; in fact, from what we know from the brief account of his rash action, Lyanna is not mentioned at all until Aerys starts enquiring what it was all about.

Doesn't it seem a bit over-coincidental then that there is this conflict at right around the same time as Lyanna disappears?

I have wondered if Ned's strict adherence to honor later on in life had its roots in some wrong he committed at the beginning of the war.

[Ygrain]

Doesn't it seem a bit over-coincidental then that there is this conflict at right around the same time as Lyanna disappears?

I have wondered if Ned's strict adherence to honor later on in life had its roots in some wrong he committed at the beginning of the war.

Ned was presumably at the Vale (perhaps preparing to attend Brandon's wedding). And, since he never was the boy he was, I don't see him committing anything dishonourable, ever.

However, I do think that this was not coincidental - what really bothers me is that Brandon never bothered to check if Rhaegar is at home. Whether he believed it to be kidnapping and rape or not, did he really expect Rhaegar to take Lyanna where his wife and children lived? I wonder whether Brandon may have been intentionally misinformed because someone wanted the situation to escalate.

[WhiteOwl18]

I wonder whether Brandon may have been intentionally misinformed because someone wanted the situation to escalate.

That is a very good point and it brings a whole new dimension to the Rebellion...

[Ygrain]

That is a very good point and it brings a whole new dimension to the Rebellion...

My personal top suspect is Varys. He claims that he has always acted in the best interest of the realm, so how is fuelling Aerys' paranoia of Rhaegar the best interest? His actions show the very same pattern, be it with Aerys, Cersei, Ned or Tyrion - he seemingly supports them and acts in their interest, only to use them for his own goals.

[WhiteOwl18]

My personal top suspect is Varys. He claims that he has always acted in the best interest of the realm, so how is fuelling Aerys' paranoia of Rhaegar the best interest? His actions show the very same pattern, be it with Aerys, Cersei, Ned or Tyrion - he seemingly supports them and acts in their interest, only to use them for his own goals.

It makes me wonder what is really his end game...

[FrozenFire3]

My personal top suspect is Varys. He claims that he has always acted in the best interest of the realm, so how is fuelling Aerys' paranoia of Rhaegar the best interest? His actions show the very same pattern, be it with Aerys, Cersei, Ned or Tyrion - he seemingly supports them and acts in their interest, only to use them for his own goals.

I'm very undecided between Varys (for all the reasons you so aptly listed) and Littletrickster who thinks 'chaos is a ladda' ;) and had few personal reasons to send Brandon to his literal... hell.

[Ygrain]

It makes me wonder what is really his end game...

I'm in the Blackfyre restoration camp.

I'm very undecided between Varys (for all the reasons you so aptly listed) and Littletrickster who thinks 'chaos is a ladda' ;) and had few personal reasons to send Brandon to his literal... hell.

LF is my option number 2, it is only unclear whether he would have possessed the means to pull something like that.

[finger]

Good question, but whoever is behind dragon number three will indeed be a surprise as Martin himself said that it need not be a Targaryen,.

Within the context of that idea, Aegon could still be the third head as a Blackfyre, because he is still a "dragon," just not Rhaegars.

However, I do think it's a good chance it will be someone completely different.

While I was reading the ADWD, I got the impression the the two dwarves would ride the two dragons. I don't really know why, perhaps some clue or subliminal message.

I think Dany is short and skinny, maybe because she's presented besides Drogo, Jorah, Illyrio,...

Drogon is the biggest of the three dragons.

Dany rides Drogon.

So, the two others should be riden by some people shorter and lighter.

I don't think she's recruiting soldier-children,...

This brings us to the question of A+J=T

Looking for Aegon, I've found Tywin. He's presented among the darkest characters in the series, but if you study him better, he's still worse. I think he hated Tyrion, and tried to kill him at least thrice, and that's the real cause of Tyrion killing him, on top that he did wished to. And I suspect he also planned Joff's dead. For the present, only trails to follow.

Currently I'm looking for information on the character.

Eta: also because they rode a sow and a dog and pretended to joust, why not any other strange kind of beast?

[WhiteOwl18]

I'm in the Blackfyre restoration camp.

Yes, me too. But I wonder exactly how he intended to do it back then. Did he plan everything to be able to show up with (f)Aegon years later? Or was his plan different back then and (f)Aegon was just an opportunity that he had to take advantage off? Anyway, that is probably a discussion for a different thread...

[FrozenFire3]

I'm in the Blackfyre restoration camp.

LF is my option number 2, it is only unclear whether he would have possessed the means to pull something like that.

That and his young age... oh, and a chance encounter with Brandon on his way back to the Fingers ;)

I wouldn't exclude a composite scenario where Littlefinger sets Brandon on fire (no pun intended) as a petty personal revenge just for Varys to exploit it (adding... fuel to the flames) to further his political agenda.

[finger]

I'm very undecided between Varys (for all the reasons you so aptly listed) and Littletrickster who thinks 'chaos is a ladda' ;) and had few personal reasons to send Brandon to his literal... hell.

IMO, It couldn't be LF. After his duel with Brandon, he was sent away as soon as he was able to travel. Then he's lost in minor tasks until Jon Arryn takes him to KL, time after the rebellion succeeded. I don't think Brandon would trust any news coming from his betrothed's suitor.

Simply put, Brandon was a fool. His father in law to be was so kind to add "gallant".