R+L=J v. 52

[Ygrain]

IMO, It couldn't be LF. After his duel with Brandon, he was sent away as soon as he was able to travel. Then he's lost in minor tasks until Jon Arryn takes him to KL, time after the rebellion succeeded. I don't think Brandon would trust any news coming from his betrothed's suitor.

Simply put, Brandon was a fool. His father in law to be was so kind to add "gallant".

A well-placed prick like "your sister spreads her legs for Rhaegar" might have achieved the effect, though.

[finger]

Yeah, and he could add " as Cat did for me". Brandon might be fool enough to swallow the bait. But, in the event, he could have been cheated by anyone.

[MtnLion]

Yeah, and he could add " as Cat did for me". Brandon might be fool enough to swallow the bait. But, in the event, he could have been cheated by anyone.

Littlefinger has motive, and we need a means. For a fortnight after the duel, Brandon is absent and Littlefinger is being cared for by Lysa. When Littlefinger leaves it is on a litter, and travel would be very slow. It seems quite possible for a situation to arise that Littlefinger could take advantage of. Brandon not recovering composure on his ride to King's Landing implies that whatever he heard hit a nerve.

[finger]

Littlefinger has motive, and we need a means. For a fortnight after the duel, Brandon is absent and Littlefinger is being cared for by Lysa. When Littlefinger leaves it is on a litter, and travel would be very slow. It seems quite possible for a situation to arise that Littlefinger could take advantage of. Brandon not recovering composure on his ride to King's Landing implies that whatever he heard hit a nerve.

Who knows? It's a fiction character, he could do anything.

He had just tried to be killed, he shouldn't be on the mood of devicing anything. While he raised socially, he had the time to think and wait for his time to come.

You know. Revenge is a dish that is served cold.

I'd say Brandon just heard something and then jerked off, but... :dunno:

Eta: Besides, I don't think LF was that bad by then. He was just a teenager in love whose girl went away with the other guy. He wanted to die at the moment and he never could find anyone to replace Cat. Years of simmering in his own resentment made him as we knew him. By then, he just wanted to be dead.

[Ygrain]

Yeah, and he could add " as Cat did for me". Brandon might be fool enough to swallow the bait. But, in the event, he could have been cheated by anyone.

Touché.

Who knows? It's a fiction character, he could do anything.

He had just tried to be killed, he shouldn't be on the mood of devicing anything. While he raised socially, he had the time to think and wait for his time to come.

You know. Revenge is a dish that is served cold.

I'd say Brandon just heard something and then jerked off, but... :dunno:

Not really. Even fictive characters have their characteristics, and can act in-character, or out of character. If the latter, the author must provide a sensible reaason, or else it's very bad writing - and that's not GRRM's case.

Eta: Besides, I don't think LF was that bad by then. He was just a teenager in love whose girl went away with the other guy. He wanted to die at the moment and he never could find anyone to replace Cat. Years of simmering in his own resentment made him as we knew him. By then, he just wanted to be dead.

Did he? He wrote a letter to Cat and she never replied; and we do not know at which point exactly his love for her turned into hatred. Perhaps a random encounter with Brandon was such turning point - unplanned, but seeing the result it brought, it set him into the direction of the sly bastard that he became.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Did he? He wrote a letter to Cat and she never replied; and we do not know at which point exactly his love for her turned into hatred. Perhaps a random encounter with Brandon was such turning point - unplanned, but seeing the result it brought, it set him into the direction of the sly bastard that he became.

This is exactly what I was just thinking. Not a stretch to think that LF, en route to the Vale from RR, might by chance encounter Brandon, returning to RR from wherever he had been. Perhaps it was LF who witnessed the "abduction" or perhaps he heard about it through the small folk gossip net. Even as a miserable impulsive teenager, it's an easy leap to imagine him seeing an opportunity to sow chaos and take some revenge on Brandon at the same time. Maybe he was pleasantly surprised by the rush he got when his actions led to a much bigger revenge than he anticipated.

I really wish we knew what was in that letter. Does anyone recall the exact timing of it?

[WhiteOwl18]

This is exactly what I was just thinking. Not a stretch to think that LF, en route to the Vale from RR, might by chance encounter Brandon, returning to RR from wherever he had been. Perhaps it was LF who witnessed the "abduction" or perhaps he heard about it through the small folk gossip net. Even as a miserable impulsive teenager, it's an easy leap to imagine him seeing an opportunity to sow chaos and take some revenge on Brandon at the same time. Maybe he was pleasantly surprised by the rush he got when his actions led to a much bigger revenge than he anticipated.

I really wish we knew what was in that letter. Does anyone recall the exact timing of it?

Oh, I like that idea! How interesting would it be if Littlefinger was really the one that started it all...

[Jory Cassel]

I really wish we knew what was in that letter. Does anyone recall the exact timing of it?

same here, and I wonder if it is ever revealed..

I believe he sent it just after Brandon was killed.

[A Crow Come Over]

Oh, I like that idea! How interesting would it be if Littlefinger was really the one that started it all...

Isnt he already "the one that started it all"?

I mean he had Lysa kill Jon and send that letter to Cat.

[Alia of the knife]

Putting aside the anti-Brandon/Stark bia's, I think one has to look at the facts that we have and address really the precious little we do know.

In terms of Brandon's nature, what we know comes from a woman who wanted more than anything to be Lady Stark, but ended up with his friend, and who also seemed to hold some bitterness towards Rickard for trusting his Maester and wanting to venture beyond the political realm of the North.

But, even if what she said is true, again, Brandon is everything that an Alpha male should be. He's fierce, takes what he wants, and is cunning with likely a snarl for a smile. He couldn't be what he was without cunning, and judging him for a fool because his "pack" was his Achilles heel and because of Hoster Tully's statement is a little broad, especially when Hoster himself didn't even know what was going on under his own roof with LF and his daughters.

If we're going to trust Cersei's word on character, then we have to trust that on some level she was confirming that Brandon was born to lead whereas Ned was just a soldier, and given that others chose to follow Brandon I suppose makes them fools as well.

And while I love Ned, in retrospect, many of the decisions he made in KL were foolish. He was out of his league, and I imagine so was Brandon considering what he was going to be up against in KL, and likely what Hoster was really referring to, so while they were naïve in thinking that everyone followed the same code of honor, they weren't necessarily fools.

If it had been someone else's sister, he likely would have been more methodical and measured in coming up with a plan of action, but given that it was his "pack" sister, he did indeed lose his composure as anyone would do.

I can tell you that anyone who knows me personally will tell you I'm pragmatic, and cautious to frustration, dotting every "I" and crossing every "T," but if it came to my family, yes I would lose it, and lose it even with a King, so I suppose I'd be a fool as well.

I'd also say that not killing LF, but sparing him is on par with Neds trusting LF when LF himself told him not to- a deadly mistake.

And in terms of Brandon calling on Rhaegar to come out and die instead of calling for Lyanna, says to me that it was Rhaegar whom he held responsible, or else he would have called for Lyanna to come out and explain herself.

I certainly don't think Brandon is an angel, or innocent, but again, I need a lot more information before I condemn him on the little we have to go on.

Littlefinger:

IMHO, while LF is an agent of chaos, he has a driving anger and hatred, as well as extreme hubris, I think we endow him with too much power.

While he is effective with the likes of Cat, Ned, and Sansa, political innocents driven and sheltered by the protective naitvete of honor, how effective is he really with someone like Varys?

Varys allows LF to think he is on par with him only because it helps Varys to watch him. The difference between Varys and LF is that LF is in if for the game, and Varys truly believes he's serving the Realm even with all his ruthless machinations to put the Blackfyres into place.

Also IMHO, while he may have played some role, I think LF was too young and too weak from his injury to impact events so completely. I think it may have been more what LF knew, but didn't tell anyone and let events play out as they did.

Think Sweet Robin, (and we know who his real father is), and envision a "Sweet Robin" prior to the Rebellion with a little more stature, and some sense.

Lyannas abduction and Brandon:

My speculation is that it went something like this.

Lyanna was en route to Brandons wedding, Rhaegar enlisted the aide of Dayne and Whent because he either anticipated a fight, or wanted to eliminate the chances for a fight, however, the latter didn't happen hence Lyannas being taken by swordpoint.

Either they surrendered, or there was a fight, and if there was fight, a few people were hurt, or even killed and the survivors race to find Brandon at Riverrun, tell him a confused and conflated version of events that causes Brandon to run out with his hair on end.

And if there were Northmen killed or hurt in the melee, that probably inspired the other sons to follow Brandon, because then it wasn't just about Bradnons family alone.

I don't think it was anymore complicated than that

If it's true that Rhaegar did what he did based upon impulse, then Lyanna herself wouldn't have known he was coming for her. If it was planned they would traveled faster without the two KG who could join them later at the TOJ. No matter how well they were all disguised, they would have likely caused attention since in those days it was VERY easy to tell the gentry from the peasants.

And even after all this, Rhaegar still may not have meant to harm anyone, but things spiraled out of control.

Since Lyanna likely didn't know he was coming, and Rhaegar and Co. were likely initially disguised, (if they were smart), Lyanna herself may have even fought, not knowing who it was that was "attacking" them.

Or, she may have taken a walk away from the group, and Rhaegar comes upon her, again in disguise, and her men come upon the scene and all hell breaks loose because they didn't understand what they were seeing other than their Lady with strange men.

It's like when a fight breaks out today, but nobody knows how, why, or when it started.

All of this alone could have caused Brandon to do what he did, as well as perpetuate the different versions of the tales that everyone is telling, which again I think is Martins point.

EDIT:

If Rhaegar and Lyanna had a daughter.

"Visenya" with wolfs eyes and silver hair.

http://static.skyrim.nexusmods.com/images/4649331-1356736950.png

[jandslegate]

Hello all. New to the board so please forgive me for just jumping in here. I was thinking, what if it's not as simple as R+L=J. We know that Ned had to face the three kingsguard at the ToJ. Apparently, Ned and Howland ultimately defeat them. It's what happens after that got the wheels turning. Ned was compelled for whatever reason, be it honor, respect or perhaps some other obligation, to return Dawn to the Daynes. I assume if Lyanna had a child then and there at the tower that Ned took the child with him. I tend to accept that this is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Now the circumstances of the birth seem vague. I tend to think it was a mutual love between them. However, I wouldn't put it past GRRM to throw a curve and find out that Rhaegar was actually obsessed with the prophecy and may have harmed Lyanna. Again, this is all speculative.

Back to the point. Let's assume Ned leaves with a legendary starforged sword and a newly orphaned nephew. Is it Jon? Possibly. What if it isn't though? Suppose Ned went to Ashara to not only return Dawn but in exchange for this courtesy he asks for something in return. Suppose Ned left Lyanna's child with Ashara to hide him and protect him. To protect him from his friend and King. He would have every reason to hide a child like this far away. Now, we know that there is a Dayne that was Jon's milk brother. His name, OF COURSE, is Eddard. Did Ned actually father a bastard? Hard to say, but for the two to be milk brothers you would think they were born close to eachother. I suppose it is somewhat crackpottery, but what if Eddard Dayne is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna and Jon Snow is actually meant to become the next Sword of the Morning? Being that the honor is earned as opposed to inherited, Jon's 'lowborn' status wouldn't hold him back.

Another somewhat unrelated point. I'm kind of curious about what will happen to Jon. I'm not entirely convinced Melissandre is even able to resurrect anyone. As I am not convinced she's actually who/what she claims to be. I thought it would be fitting, albeit farfetched, if LS/Cat wound up being the one to bring Jon back somehow. Thus in a romantic sort of way, he was saved by his father in that Ned sent Berric out in the first place who in turn traded his life for Cat, etc.

Anyway, sorry for the jumbled thoughts/text.

[finger]

Touché.

Not really. Even fictive characters have their characteristics, and can act in-character, or out of character. If the latter, the author must provide a sensible reaason, or else it's very bad writing - and that's not GRRM's case.

Did he? He wrote a letter to Cat and she never replied; and we do not know at which point exactly his love for her turned into hatred. Perhaps a random encounter with Brandon was such turning point - unplanned, but seeing the result it brought, it set him into the direction of the sly bastard that he became.

That's right. This series has succeeded because it takes care of details, like the building of the characters.

Another good thing is characters are not normally good or bad. Martin gives clues along the text, when you less expect them, so that you can understand better. I was touched by a musing by Cat when she glimpsed Robb's banners in the distance. They were painted white, grey and black, all the shades of the truth.

Besides, they can and do evolve. Some do it under our sight, and some did it before. Judging for the former, there is no switch that makes them good or bad, it's rather a process.

I think we agree that Riverrun's Petyr wasn't KL's Lord Baylish. He wasn't killed by Brandon only because Cat asked him to spare his live, and he dicided to offer her that "bethrotal gift". Then he offered Petyr the chance to yield everytime he was hurt, but P refused stubbornly until he wasn't even able to defend himself.

From that to revenge there's a path to follow, and it takes its time. Pity Cat torn the letter.

[WhiteOwl18]

Isnt he already "the one that started it all"?

I mean he had Lysa kill Jon and send that letter to Cat.

Yes, but I was responding to the suggestion that he might have been the one who poisoned Brandon's mind and made him go to King's Landing and therefore started the rebellion. I was referring to:

This is exactly what I was just thinking. Not a stretch to think that LF, en route to the Vale from RR, might by chance encounter Brandon, returning to RR from wherever he had been. Perhaps it was LF who witnessed the "abduction" or perhaps he heard about it through the small folk gossip net. Even as a miserable impulsive teenager, it's an easy leap to imagine him seeing an opportunity to sow chaos and take some revenge on Brandon at the same time. Maybe he was pleasantly surprised by the rush he got when his actions led to a much bigger revenge than he anticipated.

I really wish we knew what was in that letter. Does anyone recall the exact timing of it?

[Ygrain]

snip

Personally, I wouldn't blame Brandon for being overly emotional over his sister's disappearance, but my reading of his action differs. "Come out and die" shows zero concern for Lyanna who is presumably being held against will and raped, and the label "gallant fool", IMHO refers to an action that is not only foolish but addresses an issue of honour - such as avenging the stain on the family honour, caused by deflowering Lyanna, whether consensual or not. I'd even say - though I'm not sure if this is a correct reading or just my inference - that "gallant fool" suggests that not only the action is foolish but that the issue is not worth the action in the first place.

Hello all. New to the board so please forgive me for just jumping in here. I was thinking, what if it's not as simple as R+L=J. We know that Ned had to face the three kingsguard at the ToJ. Apparently, Ned and Howland ultimately defeat them. It's what happens after that got the wheels turning. Ned was compelled for whatever reason, be it honor, respect or perhaps some other obligation, to return Dawn to the Daynes. I assume if Lyanna had a child then and there at the tower that Ned took the child with him. I tend to accept that this is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Now the circumstances of the birth seem vague. I tend to think it was a mutual love between them. However, I wouldn't put it past GRRM to throw a curve and find out that Rhaegar was actually obsessed with the prophecy and may have harmed Lyanna. Again, this is all speculative.

Hello and welcome to the boards :-)

The trip to return Dawn might also have a pragmatic reason - it would be a convenient cover-up to a port where Ned could ship Jon off without anyone knowing, so that he could turn up in KL without a baby whose presence he would have to explain.

As for Rhaegar harming Lyanna: the notable lack of silence on Ned's part, especially in contrast with the trauma that Lyanna's death caused him, tells the contrary, IMHO. Furthermore, Ned's musing how Rhaegar probably wasn't the type to frequent brothels is would be very out of place - the assessment of Rhaegar's sexual habits is rather unimportant here but what matters is the context when Ned draws a comparison between Lyanna's betrothed and her suposed rapist, in favour of the rapist. Add to it that Lyanna was clutching blue roses on her deathbed, which someone had to arrange for her - would she do so with the flowers from a rapist? I doubt that very much.

Back to the point. Let's assume Ned leaves with a legendary starforged sword and a newly orphaned nephew. Is it Jon? Possibly. What if it isn't though? Suppose Ned went to Ashara to not only return Dawn but in exchange for this courtesy he asks for something in return. Suppose Ned left Lyanna's child with Ashara to hide him and protect him. To protect him from his friend and King. He would have every reason to hide a child like this far away. Now, we know that there is a Dayne that was Jon's milk brother. His name, OF COURSE, is Eddard. Did Ned actually father a bastard? Hard to say, but for the two to be milk brothers you would think they were born close to eachother. I suppose it is somewhat crackpottery, but what if Eddard Dayne is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna and Jon Snow is actually meant to become the next Sword of the Morning? Being that the honor is earned as opposed to inherited, Jon's 'lowborn' status wouldn't hold him back.

Edric "Ned" Dayne is several years younger than Jon (Arya meets him when he is twelve while Jon would be about sixteen at this point). Milk brothers mean that the two were breastfed by the same woman, not necessarily at the same time. And BTW, if Eddard did father a child on Ashara, s/he would have been older than Jon (unless the two somehow find a place and opportunity for a tryst during the rebellion in which their families were on the opposite sides), as the tourney of Harrenhall took place about a year before Lyanna's supposed abduction and the beginning of the rebellion.

[Ittiz]

As for Rhaegar harming Lyanna: the notable lack of silence on Ned's part, especially in contrast with the trauma that Lyanna's death caused him, tells the contrary, IMHO. Furthermore, Ned's musing how Rhaegar probably wasn't the type to frequent brothels is would be very out of place - the assessment of Rhaegar's sexual habits is rather unimportant here but what matters is the context when Ned draws a comparison between Lyanna's betrothed and her suposed rapist, in favour of the rapist. Add to it that Lyanna was clutching blue roses on her deathbed, which someone had to arrange for her - would she do so with the flowers from a rapist? I doubt that very much.

Could be Stockholm syndrome. It occasionally happens that woman get emotionally attached to their abductors.

[Ygrain]

Could be Stockholm syndrome. It occasionally happens that woman get emotionally attached to their abductors.

Stockholm syndrome wouldn't affect the assessment of others, though, and except Robert, no-one seems to think that Rhaegar was a rapist.

[FrozenFire3]

This is exactly what I was just thinking. Not a stretch to think that LF, en route to the Vale from RR, might by chance encounter Brandon, returning to RR from wherever he had been. Perhaps it was LF who witnessed the "abduction" or perhaps he heard about it through the small folk gossip net. Even as a miserable impulsive teenager, it's an easy leap to imagine him seeing an opportunity to sow chaos and take some revenge on Brandon at the same time. Maybe he was pleasantly surprised by the rush he got when his actions led to a much bigger revenge than he anticipated.

Emphasys on 'chance'. Nobody says he was then that twisted agent of chaos we all love to hate. It's the other way around. The unpredictable fallout of his chance revenge gave him a whole new perspective on the nature of power (quoting Snape, brains over brawn) and the most effective means to succesfully climb its ladder.

Of course there is no textual evidence whatsoever. But the theory has a certain narrative appeal and inner logic.

Hello all. New to the board so please forgive me for just jumping in here. I was thinking, what if it's not as simple as R+L=J. We know that Ned had to face the three kingsguard at the ToJ. Apparently, Ned and Howland ultimately defeat them. It's what happens after that got the wheels turning. Ned was compelled for whatever reason, be it honor, respect or perhaps some other obligation, to return Dawn to the Daynes. I assume if Lyanna had a child then and there at the tower that Ned took the child with him. I tend to accept that this is the child of Rhaegar and Lyanna. Now the circumstances of the birth seem vague. I tend to think it was a mutual love between them. However, I wouldn't put it past GRRM to throw a curve and find out that Rhaegar was actually obsessed with the prophecy and may have harmed Lyanna. Again, this is all speculative.

Welcome!

Ygrain has already replied with her usual thoroughness ;)

I'll add that Rhaegar died with a woman's name on his lips (that woman being Lyanna as confirmed by the official app). It seems to me strange he first harmed her to death just to die with her name on his lips. Not to mention the timeline. She died months after Rhaegar left her at the ToJ...

[FrozenFire3]

Stockholm syndrome wouldn't affect the assessment of others, though, and except Robert, no-one seems to think that Rhaegar was a rapist.

Not even Lyanna's brother.

[Alia of the knife]

Personally, I wouldn't blame Brandon for being overly emotional over his sister's disappearance, but my reading of his action differs. "Come out and die" shows zero concern for Lyanna who is presumably being held against will and raped, and the label "gallant fool", IMHO refers to an action that is not only foolish but addresses an issue of honour - such as avenging the stain on the family honour, caused by deflowering Lyanna, whether consensual or not. I'd even say - though I'm not sure if this is a correct reading or just my inference - that "gallant fool" suggests that not only the action is foolish but that the issue is not worth the action in the first place.

Hello and welcome to the boards :-)

The trip to return Dawn might also have a pragmatic reason - it would be a convenient cover-up to a port where Ned could ship Jon off without anyone knowing, so that he could turn up in KL without a baby whose presence he would have to explain.

As for Rhaegar harming Lyanna: the notable lack of silence on Ned's part, especially in contrast with the trauma that Lyanna's death caused him, tells the contrary, IMHO. Furthermore, Ned's musing how Rhaegar probably wasn't the type to frequent brothels is would be very out of place - the assessment of Rhaegar's sexual habits is rather unimportant here but what matters is the context when Ned draws a comparison between Lyanna's betrothed and her suposed rapist, in favour of the rapist. Add to it that Lyanna was clutching blue roses on her deathbed, which someone had to arrange for her - would she do so with the flowers from a rapist? I doubt that very much.

Edric "Ned" Dayne is several years younger than Jon (Arya meets him when he is twelve while Jon would be about sixteen at this point). Milk brothers mean that the two were breastfed by the same woman, not necessarily at the same time. And BTW, if Eddard did father a child on Ashara, s/he would have been older than Jon (unless the two somehow find a place and opportunity for a tryst during the rebellion in which their families were on the opposite sides), as the tourney of Harrenhall took place about a year before Lyanna's supposed abduction and the beginning of the rebellion.

And I simply don't agree with that.

I think there are enough textual inferences that suggest that Brandon and Lyanna were close.

You have Lady Dustins references to them being "half Centaur," which means that Lyanna rode and behaved like a Northern woman. In fact, Rickard may have the one restraining her behavior given that she was to marry some poncy Southern lord.

I would also speculate that it was Brandon who was teaching her with the sword, since I doubt it was Benjen given that she was using him for a pin cushion, and it likely wasn't dutiful Ned.

I think that Brandon and Lyanna were the "Alphas" and when something happened to Lyanna, it was Brandon who felt it the most, and by the time they were finished telling Brandon what happened, Rhaegar likely turned into a dragon and flew off with Lyanna in his talons.

I think Hosters comments ring more of the idea of the folly of a "romantic rescue" where Brandon and his men are going to ride off to the dragons lair, and slay him, bringing to mind the archetypical "dragon slayer" image, but again, Martins shows us that the hero doesn't always come back, as he does later with Rhaegar himself.

Again on Hoster Tully, I'm not sure if he's anyone to be calling anyone a fool given the state of his own household with Lysa, Cat and Petyr.

I actually would not be surprised to learn later at some point that Brandon himself may have actually initially liked Rhaegar and admired him, and did NOT like Robert, which would be very different from Ned and even Martin himself who claims Robert was actually not a bad guy.

[WhiteOwl18]

I would also speculate that it was Brandon who was teaching her with the sword, since I doubt it was Benjen given that she was using him for a pin cushion, and it likely wasn't dutiful Ned.

«Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn’t be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. “You be quiet, stupid,” the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. “It’s just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?” She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.»

A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 34- Bran III

Clearly, it has to be Benjen, since he is the only one of Lyanna's brothers who is younger than her.