R+L=J v. 52

[Ygrain]

And I simply don't agree with that.

I think there are enough textual inferences that suggest that Brandon and Lyanna were close.

You have Lady Dustins references to them being "half Centaur," which means that Lyanna rode and behaved like a Northern woman. In fact, Rickard may have the one restraining her behavior given that she was to marry some poncy Southern lord.

I would also speculate that it was Brandon who was teaching her with the sword, since I doubt it was Benjen given that she was using him for a pin cushion, and it likely wasn't dutiful Ned.

I think that Brandon and Lyanna were the "Alphas" and when something happened to Lyanna, it was Brandon who felt it the most, and by the time they were finished telling Brandon what happened, Rhaegar likely turned into a dragon and flew off with Lyanna in his talons.

I think Hosters comments ring more of the idea of the folly of a "romantic rescue" where Brandon and his men are going to ride off to the dragons lair, and slay him, bringing to mind the archetypical "dragon slayer" image, but again, Martins shows us that the hero doesn't always come back, as he does later with Rhaegar himself.

Again on Hoster Tully, I'm not sure if he's anyone to be calling anyone a fool given the state of his own household with Lysa, Cat and Petyr.

I actually would not be surprised to learn later at some point that Brandon himself may have actually initially liked Rhaegar and admired him, and did NOT like Robert, which would be very different from Ned and even Martin himself who claims Robert was actually not a bad guy.

Yeah, that would be a possible reading, as well, and close relationship between Brandon and Lyanna is also very plausible. However, it still doesn't explain why Brandon's primary concern seems to be kiling Rhaegar instead of setting Lyanna free.

I strongly disagree, though, that Lysa's affair with Petyr somehow disqualifies Hoster's assesment, as the fact that someone's teenage daughter commits something improper and/or stupid has very little to do with the parents' qualities.

[Ygrain]

«Now two children danced across the godswood, hooting at one another as they dueled with broken branches. The girl was the older and taller of the two. Arya! Bran thought eagerly, as he watched her leap up onto a rock and cut at the boy. But that couldn’t be right. If the girl was Arya, the boy was Bran himself, and he had never worn his hair so long. And Arya never beat me playing swords, the way that girl is beating him. She slashed the boy across his thigh, so hard that his leg went out from under him and he fell into the pool and began to splash and shout. “You be quiet, stupid,” the girl said, tossing her own branch aside. “It’s just water. Do you want Old Nan to hear and run tell Father?” She knelt and pulled her brother from the pool, but before she got him out again, the two of them were gone.»

A Dance with Dragons, Chapter 34- Bran III

Clearly, it has to be Benjen, since he is the only one of Lyanna's brothers who is younger than her.

I think Alia meant that while Lyanna practised with Benjen, she learned the basics from Brandon, as she is apparently much more proficient than Benjen. I think that Brandon being her teacher is possible but not necessarily the only option.

[WhiteOwl18]

I think Alia meant that while Lyanna practised with Benjen, she learned the basics from Brandon, as she is apparently much more proficient than Benjen. I think that Brandon being her teacher is possible but not necessarily the only option.

Ok, sorry. I misunderstood.

[JonNonRegis]

except Robert, no-one seems to think that Rhaegar was a rapist.

Not so; Dany thinks that Rhaegar carried off his northern girl at swordpoint. Brandon most likely saw things the same way.

This is not to say Rhaegar raped or abducted her -- Dany wasn't even born yet, obviously. The point is if Dany thinks that, it's because someone told her that, which means that there are widely varying stories.

The reason there are widely varying stories is very simple: Nobody in Westeros, except possibly Howland Reed, really knows what the hell happened.

Certainly not Ser Barristan, who wasn't there and whose opinion of what Rhaegar thought or felt isn't justified by much. In the same chapter where he thinks "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna" he also thinks Rhaegar never really saw him as a good friend -- not the way Rhaegar saw Dayne or Connington.

[Ygrain]

Not so; Dany thinks that Rhaegar carried off his northern girl at swordpoint. Brandon most likely saw things the same way.

This is not to say Rhaegar raped or abducted her -- Dany wasn't even born yet, obviously. The point is if Dany thinks that, it's because someone told her that, which means that there are widely varying stories.

The reason there are widely varying stories is very simple: Nobody in Westeros, except possibly Howland Reed, really knows what the hell happened.

Certainly not Ser Barristan, who wasn't there and whose opinion of what Rhaegar thought or felt isn't justified by much. In the same chapter where he thinks "Rhaegar loved his lady Lyanna" he also thinks Rhaegar never really saw him as a good friend -- not the way Rhaegar saw Dayne or Connington.

I'd be very careful with Dany's PoV - that's where you get that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips, and the context when she thinks about Lyanna being taken at swordpoint is when she basically wishes that Daario did the same to prevent her wedding to Hizdahr, so she's having a very romantic idea of a not-at-all unwilling abductee.

Barristan's notion of Rhaegar is consistent with the depiction from e.g. Jorah (as he compares Dany to Rhaegar in the situation when she protects the Lhazarene women from rape).

What I had on mind is that e.g. Cersei or Kevan who think about Rhaegar and Lyanna never mention any violence towards her, and given Cersei's experience with Robert, one would say that her idol raping someone might be a bit uncomfortable for her, and Kevan doesn't think in terms of non-consent or an offense to the Starks, either.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

So after the Red Wedding episode, i started thinking about a baby Ned Stark, and how there will probably not be another one for a very long time. The next Ned will be Jon's son. Eddard Targaryen First of his name, King of the Andals and the First men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. So that's exciting to have a Ned on the iron throne one day :)

[FrozenFire3]

On a slightly tangential note, nobody channels dear daddy Rhaegar better than Kit: http://fuckyeahkitharington.tumblr.com/post/52897563486

Sadness, pessimism, loneliness, poetry and all :lol:

[Sasha Steelsong]

So after the Red Wedding episode, i started thinking about a baby Ned Stark, and how there will probably not be another one for a very long time. The next Ned will be Jon's son. Eddard Targaryen First of his name, King of the Andals and the First men, Lord of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm. So that's exciting to have a Ned on the iron throne one day :)

I like that idea. Even if I don't actually think Jon will rule - I feel like Dany will end up having a kid, won't survive, and Jon will end up as Regent as the last Targ left standing (I don't think he'll actually be the kid's father though). As to a Ned Stark though...it will probably be a 15 years or so at least since it looks like it will be on 4 or 5 yr old Rickon to carry on the name.

[A Crow Come Over]

Yeah, that would be a possible reading, as well, and close relationship between Brandon and Lyanna is also very plausible. However, it still doesn't explain why Brandon's primary concern seems to be kiling Rhaegar instead of setting Lyanna free.

I strongly disagree, though, that Lysa's affair with Petyr somehow disqualifies Hoster's assesment, as the fact that someone's teenage daughter commits something improper and/or stupid has very little to do with the parents' qualities.

We dont know how close they were, for all we know Brandon never enjoyed her company. I think she was self taught in everything she did (swordplay, horses, etc).

I don't see how Brandon's relationship with Lyanna is topical for Jon's parentage either.

[Ygrain]

I don't see how Brandon's relationship with Lyanna is topical for Jon's parentage either.

There have been worse tangents than trying to piece together the scant information about Lyanna. This particular originated from analysis of Brandon's behaviour after the supposed abduction, which, as you will hopefully agree, is very much about R+L.

[A Crow Come Over]

There have been worse tangents than trying to piece together the scant information about Lyanna. This particular originated from analysis of Brandon's behaviour after the supposed abduction, which, as you will hopefully agree, is very much about R+L.

I don't read too much into Brandon's reaction, its very common for brothers to challenge others to dual/death to defend their sisters honor, plus the fact that we know he is very impulsive and has "wolfs blood".

For me its pretty simple, Brandon was told (whether false or not) that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar, Brandon goes down to KL to defend his sisters honor but is thrown in jail.

I don't see how this proves or disproves Jons parentage, but to each his own.

[Ygrain]

I don't read too much into Brandon's reaction, its very common for brothers to challenge others to dual/death to defend their sisters honor, plus the fact that we know he is very impulsive and has "wolfs blood".

For me its pretty simple, Brandon was told (whether false or not) that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar, Brandon goes down to KL to defend his sisters honor but is thrown in jail.

I don't see how this proves or disproves Jons parentage, but to each his own.

The thread is designed for anything concerning R+L, and most posters take R+L as a proven fact, so now it's mostly the various aspects of their relationship that get discussed.

[UVA]

For me its pretty simple, Brandon was told (whether false or not) that Lyanna was abducted by Rhaegar, Brandon goes down to KL to defend his sisters honor but is thrown in jail.

I don't see how this proves or disproves Jons parentage, but to each his own.

Strictly speaking you're right but Brandon's story is so closely associated with Lyanna's that he almost entirely fits under the R+L=J umbrella. There are the mysteries of the ToH, possible links to Ashara Dayne, rushing to KL seeking Rhaegar, his murder, and the associations with Lyanna made by Ned and Lady Dustin. Perhaps the dual with Littefinger can be viewed as more independent of these events, yet there are viable theories that LF, out of spite, precipitated Brandon's decision to go to KL. For these reasons, I think Brandon's details are useful to further flesh out RLJ.

[A Crow Come Over]

Strictly speaking you're right but Brandon's story is so closely associated with Lyanna's that he almost entirely fits under the R+L=J umbrella. There are the mysteries of the ToH, possible links to Ashara Dayne, rushing to KL seeking Rhaegar, his murder, and the associations with Lyanna made by Ned and Lady Dustin. Perhaps the dual with Littefinger can be viewed as more independent of these events, yet there are viable theories that LF, out of spite, precipitated Brandon's decision to go to KL. For these reasons, I think Brandon's details are useful to further flesh out RLJ.

And what is this based on?

[Ygrain]

And what is this based on?

There seem to be some inconsistencies in Brandon's actions - namely, coming to scream for Rhaegar to come out and die when Rhaegar is not in KL. Finding out the whereabouts or the lack of of the Crown Prince should be easy enough even for one consumed by rage, especially as the travel must have taken a couple of days and he had friends with him, so this course of action seems highly illogical, unless Brandon acts on some misinformation, most probably malevolent. The two commonly agreed on candidates are either Varys, acting to fan the conflict, or LF, acting probably without any plan but merely to upset Brandon at a random encounter; seeing the result of his manipulation, it may be the start of his career as we know it.

ETA: Plus, there is the notable lack of concern for Lyanna's well-being on Brandon's part, as he seems more intent on killing Rhaegar than releasing his sister.

[A Crow Come Over]

There seem to be some inconsistencies in Brandon's actions - namely, coming to scream for Rhaegar to come out and die when Rhaegar is not in KL. Finding out the whereabouts or the lack of of the Crown Prince should be easy enough even for one consumed by rage, especially as the travel must have taken a couple of days and he had friends with him, so this course of action seems highly illogical, unless Brandon acts on some misinformation, most probably malevolent. The two commonly agreed on candidates are either Varys, acting to fan the conflict, or LF, acting probably without any plan but merely to upset Brandon at a random encounter; seeing the result of his manipulation, it may be the start of his career as we know it.

At this point tho, isnt LF seriously injured recovering in the Fingers? Also, he cant be more than 14 at this time so I don't think he could've concocted and predicted what would've happened.

We don't know where Brandon heard the info but it did involve his his sister so it wouldnt take long for word to get to him (raven from WF? Messenger from Robert?) and going to KL would be the most logical place to look for the Prince, wouldnt it? Far as I know, no one knew Rhaegar took her to TOJ.

ETA: Plus, there is the notable lack of concern for Lyanna's well-being on Brandon's part, as he seems more intent on killing Rhaegar than releasing his sister.

I'm not sure what the sentence is supposed to imply? Are you suggesting that Brandon thought Lyanna was already dead?

I have no doubt that the LF of 300 AL would've been able to plan this, I just don't think that LF in 282 AL could have.

[MtnLion]

I'm not sure what the sentence is supposed to imply? Are you suggesting that Brandon thought Lyanna was already dead?

That is one of the possibilities that would explain exactly why Brandon does not make any inquiries after Lyanna, and outright demands that Rhaegar come to his doom.

I have no doubt that the LF of 300 AL would've been able to plan this, I just don't think that LF in 282 AL could have.

The Littlefinger of 300AL came from somewhere. At some point in time he creates chaos and benefits from it, why couldn't it be in 282AL?

[Filleted Man]

wrong thread. sorry.

[Jon Icefyre]

On a slightly tangential note, nobody channels dear daddy Rhaegar better than Kit: http://fuckyeahkitha...ost/52897563486

Sadness, pessimism, loneliness, poetry and all :lol:

Haha so true!

[Jon Icefyre]

wrong thread. sorry.

Even so, just to answer your question, Ned called in his banners before he impregnated Cat.