Mance's search for the Horn of Winter

[SpaceChampion]

So the previous books made it seem like Mance was looking for the Horn of Winter in the Frontfangs, digging up graves of men and giants. However, during AGOT we do know that Mance was at Winterfell, and he looked over the Starks and noticed Jon. We never really got a strong reason why he came to Winterfell, did we? Whatever he told Jon was likely a lie.

Perhaps others have already discussed this, but it just occurred to me he was there looking for the Horn of Winter, but couldn't find the entrance to the crypts, or didn't know where to look for the oldest part of it that might have the Horn.

So in ADWD, he returns to Winterfell, and has his spear-maidens ask Theon about the crypts. He obviously still wants it, despite being on the right side of the Wall. What purpose would bringing down the Wall do for the wildlings now? Why does he still want it? Just to make threats to the kneelers? His motivations seem a bit murky.

Anyway, just wanted to bring up the strong possibility he was looking for it in AGOT, if that's new information to anyone.

[Net-Viper X]

I thought it never made sense about him wanting the horn at all. If he needs to get across the wall to be safe from white walker then why would he tear the wall down in the process? Once he knocked the wall down with that horn, there would be nothing to stop the white walkers from coming for his people so the whole trip south would be pointless after that.

Its this gap in his strategy that makes me think he might not be what he claims, and has a different plan. He could actually be an agent of the white walkers for all we know and his plan was to bring all the wildling colonies together in one mass group and then knock down the wall so the white walkers could launch their invasion of Westeros.The massed army of wildlings would make a perfect source of wight manpower for crushing the North. He wouldn't be the first man of the watch to take sides with the Others after all. Meanwhile people think that Stannis could be the Night's King come again, when it could very well be Mance.

[Har!]

So the previous books made it seem like Mance was looking for the Horn of Winter in the Frontfangs, digging up graves of men and giants. However, during AGOT we do know that Mance was at Winterfell, and he looked over the Starks and noticed Jon. We never really got a strong reason why he came to Winterfell, did we? Whatever he told Jon was likely a lie.

Perhaps others have already discussed this, but it just occurred to me he was there looking for the Horn of Winter, but couldn't find the entrance to the crypts, or didn't know where to look for the oldest part of it that might have the Horn.

So in ADWD, he returns to Winterfell, and has his spear-maidens ask Theon about the crypts. He obviously still wants it, despite being on the right side of the Wall. What purpose would bringing down the Wall do for the wildlings now? Why does he still want it? Just to make threats to the kneelers? His motivations seem a bit murky.

Anyway, just wanted to bring up the strong possibility he was looking for it in AGOT, if that's new information to anyone.

SpaceChampion, if you have not seen it, check out Bran Vras' Huis Clos project, in particular his theory on the Horn of Winter or Joramun's Horn.

You have spelled out many of the essential premises already: Mance wants the Horn, suspects it may be in Winterfell, particularly in the crypts. Since Joramun was defeated by a Stark this could be a good guess as the horn may have been taken as a trophy of war and buries with the victor.

Now as to why he wants the horn... recall the dragon horn that Euron displays. It takes full effect upon being blown three times.

Where else do we have a discussion of blowing a horn three times? The Night's Watch - once for rangers returning, twice for wildlings, three times for the others....

So if the Horn of Winter is tied into the magic of the Wall... and the ritualistic meaning of the horn blasts of the Watch (recall that lots of Watch lore has been forgotton) is an echo or mnemonic for the magic imbued in the Horn of Joramun... then two blasts of the horn should let the wildlings through safely. Only three blasts of the Horn would bring the wall down, destroying it (and allowing the others through).

A horn is heard in Winterfell... just twice, the long low moan that seems to hang over the battlements. Shortly thereafter Tormund leads his host of wildlings through the wall. Coincidence? Could be.

Read Bran Vras via the link above to get the full details. You won't regret it.

[SpaceChampion]

Thanks, I had read the latter parts of that document, which is why I brought this up (assuming Mance finding the horn in ADWD is true). My (minor) point was Mance's 2 previous trips to Winterfell were also in search of the Horn. I still don't see a mention of that there, but it is a long document.

Are all the spearwives/washerwomen accounted for? Because I'm wondering what happens to someone who blows that Horn. For Euron's dragonhorn, they burn up. Do those who blow the real Horn of Winter freeze solid? We have seen a few frozen corpses... I'm wondering if Mance forced those to blow the horn to test it.

[JonNonRegis]

However, during AGOT we do know that Mance was at Winterfell, and he looked over the Starks and noticed Jon. We never really got a strong reason why he came to Winterfell, did we? Whatever he told Jon was likely a lie.

Yeah, it was. Good catch.

The lie wasn't about the Horn, though, because as noted... even if the Horn brings down the Wall, this doesn't help the wildlings survive much longer. He was at Winterfell for a different reason.

Re his strategy: What Mance needed was a way of persuading the Watch to let his mass population south. Well, good luck with that. He did what he could via a bluff; it wasn't enough. If he had had the real horn, he could have done nothing different. (Then the bluff would have been that he would blow it, not that it was a fake horn.)

What actually would have worked is a thing he never tried: Attacking the Wall simultaneously from ten different points or more.

The Watch's half-assed resources would never have coped, and it would have fallen in less than a week. Then he could have opened the tunnel at Castle Black himself.

(This, however, would annoy GRRM, who has other plans, so he just... doesn't let it happen.)

[brut]

I'd say it is highly likely that Mance is looking for something at Winterfell, somewhat likely that he's looking for the Horn of Winter and unlikely that the Horn is at the WF. I also don't believe that the "horn" in question is a sounding instrument, but rather an "antler".

[fassreiter]

So the previous books made it seem like Mance was looking for the Horn of Winter in the Frontfangs, digging up graves of men and giants. However, during AGOT we do know that Mance was at Winterfell, and he looked over the Starks and noticed Jon. We never really got a strong reason why he came to Winterfell, did we? Whatever he told Jon was likely a lie.

No, it wasn't. When Mance was at Winterfell, the search for the Horn of Winter had not started yet. Remember, when Osha was captured (way after Robert's visit, by the way), she was on her way south, leaving on her own (apart from those three wildlings who were killed by the wolves) specifically because she did not like the idea that Mance was preparing to fight against the Others instead of trying to go south. At this point in the story, at least according to Osha, Mance still thought he could fight them back. Tormund unknowingly confirms this chain of events in ADWD. When Robert came to Winterfell, there was no one in the Frostfangs, and no one was trying to find the Horn of Winter.

[alienarea]

Having the Horn of Winter in the crypts of Winterfell being found and blown by Mance twice could fit with redriver's theory of winter originating from Winterfell.

And I wonder if the lines from the Pink Letter about Mance being in a cold cage refer to that as well: Is Mance trapped in the crypts after blowing the Horn of Winter and needs Jon (a male Stark) to get out and this is why he writes the letter?

[Tyrion_the_Oneironaut]

One interesting tidbit from the analysis posted: Ygritte says they opened a lot of graves, Jon expands on this & says some of the graves belonged to kings and heroes.

Could the Wildlings have unknowingly released Coldhands from his tomb?

[Mace Cooterian]

I'd say it is highly likely that Mance is looking for something at Winterfell, somewhat likely that he's looking for the Horn of Winter and unlikely that the Horn is at the WF. I also don't believe that the "horn" in question is a sounding instrument, but rather an "antler".

@brut; that is an interesting alternative. The theory would then be that you would "stab" the wall with the antler? Sort of reminds me of stabbing White Walkers with dragonglass. Perhaps the antler is made of obsidian and once you stab the wall....well, we all know the rest of the story. It's a little crackpot I know, and I'm not talking about any old antler made out of obsidian.

[brut]

Something like that, but the way I picture it is that the antler horn is a bone, and bones remember. It is also white and resembles Weirwood. This connects with Val's significance and her carrying a bone dagger after she reappears at the Wall clad in all white. And also could be indicative of the last known person to have the horn - The Horned Lord - The King Beyond the Wall who is oft quoted to oppose magic and say "Sorcery is a sword without a hilt. There is no safe way to grasp it."