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[Book Spoilers] EP310 Discussion


Ran
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Yeah, he's sowing the seeds. And we all know he's gotten close to Olenna Tyrell, so he may be in on the PW plans and the attempt to frame Tyrion.

Having Varys be the architect of the PW and of framing Tyrion instead of LF would be a huge departure from the books.

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This scene, IMO, didnt replace the Crossroads Inn. I think they threw it in to illustrate Aryas badassness (for lack of better word) since they butchered the escape from harrenhal

The scene is taken from her escape from Harrenhal in Clash of Kings.

The more I think about this episode, the more I dislike it. Unsurprisingly, the best parts were Bran and Arya. The Starks are the heart of the show.

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Unless the next episode starts right where this left off (unlikely), they're skipping over a ton of reactions to stuff that I would have thought they would have shown (even if, in a lot of cases, we didn't actually "see" them in the books). In King's Landing alone, it didn't look like Jaime or Brienne heard about the Red Wedding, we only got a brief snippet of Sansa's, no reaction from J/B to learning about Sansa's marriage, nothing from anybody but Cersei about Jaime's hand, none of the KL crew's reactions to Brienne's existence, etc.

what leads you to believe that it will be unlikely that they will start where they left off?

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Agree - I had no expectation that they would bring her back this episode. In fact, I think it should happen just as it does in the book. Bring her back in the very last scene of the very last episode next season. That will leave jaws dropping. I can see them playing it up during next season, dropping hints of a "Lady Stoneheart", maybe even showing a cloaked woman with Thoros, with some commentary that Beric finally died for good and the Brotherhood had a new leader. Probably give Arya a bad dream or two, as she sees through Nymeria's eyes. I'm guessing one of Walder's sons (maybe Merrett, maybe someone else) will become a more major character through next season...and then in the final episode the Brotherhood will catch him, hang him - and the reveal will be "Lady Stoneheart" pulling back her hood....cut to the credits...

Then again, there seems to be a theme on ending the season with a Danaerys scene....

A F***ing men

couldnt have said it better myself. The Reveal of LS should be done exactly how it is done in the books, chronologically-wise

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The good:

The opening - seeing the Northern army destroyed was important. We see the Robb and Cat are dead, but we also see that there isn't going to be any side switching in this one. It's an ass kicking, not just an assassination. I liked see Robb & Greywind together one last time - it doesn't move the plot, but it's nice nod.

The acting/Small Council - Dance and Cunningham continue to knock it out of the park. Dinklage as always is great as Tyrion. The small council scene was very well done. From Pycelles small slap in the face to Tyrion, Joffreys over the top glee and Tywin answering any outstanding question of who is in charge, this was very well done.

Shae/Varys - Of two minds on this. while I think Kekilli is not a fantastic actress I did like this as the set up for the "hands of cold" scene we hopefully will get. What I don't like about it is that she goes from "I'm your whore" to "luurve".

LS/PW - very happy to not see any mention or inkling of the PW or LS coming back. If at the small council meeting there was a comment of "and in Tully tradition they threw the bodies in the river!" from Joffrey that would have been entertaining, but very fine with nothing being said or done.

Not much else I would consider good.

"Meh":

Stannis/Davos/Mel - I've been very "meh" on Stannis overall. I feel they are playing him more for the villain than for the duty he is trying to follow.

Not so good:

Arya/Hound - so we go from "I'm going to stick a sword through your eye" to no comment whatsoever about him knocking her out. We get a buddy/buddy moment when she murders the Frey armsman. How we go from this scene to (if things happen the same way) to her leaving him bleeding under a tree?

Sansa/Tyrion - Sansa is nothing but dutiful (except in the bedchamber) to her husband, but is never joking with him. Which is more impactful...one moment of a joke and then the RW news or the news of the RW on top of her wedding. I like the latter better.

Jon/Ygritte: This scene feels like they forgot that Jon got shot and threw it together. How did she track him? How did she catch him? Her sneaking up on him is ok if we ignore the first two questions. On top of it, it STILL doesn't fit since she told him she knows he hasn't turned.

Sam/Bran: So there is this super secret way through the wall that no wildling has found in forever, yet it looks strangely like...the way through the wall. Did they have to show the Black Door...no...it would have been damn cool, but no. Should they have given some plausible reason why - like only NW can go through - yeah. The fact that Sam had the cache on him was a little ridiculous. He has been on the run (well, aside from the nice picnic a few episodes ago) since Crasters with other NW chasing him, the army of the dead chasing him and not being exactly built for long distance success. He'd have dropped those things long before he ran into and stabbed WW just because they are extra weight.

Ramsay/Theon: So Rheon is playing creepy torturer well but the whole scenario doesn't work for me. This is one area I would much prefer to see Theon/Reek show up much later and have the "WTF" moments of what happened to him.

Balon/Yara: it's fine Balon isn't dead yet, the three kings don't obviously have to drop dead at the same moment. What didn't work out of that was Yara proclamation/training montage of how she is going to take 50 men and conquer!

Cersei/Jaime: Worst. Reunion. Ever. So his being back in the city before the PW means we don't have the impact of the grief stricken Cersei seeing her boy dead on the bier and having his father join her in the sept. We have Brienne in the city with Sansa married to Tyrion. Since the PW isn't going to happen in the next 20 minutes and - we can assume - Jaime will speak for her so that Brienne can see Sansa...how's this work? What's the point of and for what reason will Brienne go after her?

Jon/The Wall; The people involved did fine, I didn't think this was a good scene from the standpoint if this is a cliffhanger because of "Does Jon Live" then they probably shouldn't have gone with "Hey, Sam...s'up?"

Dany: I have 0 issue with the perceived racism of the scene - I'm figuring they hired several hundred extras from the locale. So be it. The whole scene was ridiculously cheesy and made worse that it is the final scene of the season. Was hoping to see some symbolism in how the people were arrayed as if they were the same as the first Others attack and the dragon hatching scene but nope....just cheese.

I give the same disclaimer as always...it's better TV than most of what is out there, but this episode lacked the quality expected from GoT, especially a season finale. 5/10.

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THAT depends on how you define children.

Also not a child.

They are the children of the series - they have been aged up for the show, but they are still the children of the series.

In this world, not in that world. Worse things happen all the time.

What? watching your fathers head get cut off is harmful whatever world - fantasy or reality - you're talking bout. Worse things may happen, but that doesn't mean those things aren't harmful.

I might be mistaken, but I thought all Bran could do is see from Summer's eyes when he was sleeping.

In any case, being able to control wolves, perhaps people, and maybe dragons (because that is where it is leading) is a LOT of power.

Which still doesn't off set being thrown from a tower and having your back shattered.

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and there goes the discussion of if he is truly Tywins son....

Sorry if this has been mentioned. But Tywin wanting to put him in the ocean but instead raising him as a son COULD point to the fact he wasn't his. Admitting his wife cheated would harm the family, and it was the point that he had done something for the family rather than himself he was referring to.

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In the least sadistic way possible, I'm glad they showed Grey Wind's head stitched the Robb's body, because it emphasises and puts across the brutality of the Freys, something which non-readers may not be able to appreciate as much as readers would, although the RW may have been sufficient enough evidence of their raw brutality!

In terms of the rest of the episode, I wasn't disappointed like a lot of people have stated. Mainly because I somewhat expected a less dramatic episode to Rains - can't get much more dramatic than the RW? Although I'll be feeling nervously anxious with excitement during the PW, for obvious reasons! 'Mhysa' didn't enthrall like a typical finale would enthrall, but what I liked about it was that all loose ends were tied up, we got appearances from more or less every arc, and each of these arcs setting up season four nicely with mini cliff-hangers. For those reasons, and that I expected a more settled down episode in comparison to the RW anyway, I enjoyed this episode. Scenes for me that stood out were Arya/Hound, Theon/Ramsay, Tyrion/Joffrey/Tywin, and Jon/Ygritte (although short, I really liked how the passion between them was portrayed).

In terms of the Asha/Yara rescue, I can't see this materalising and becoming a major arc - I think season four will be primarily focusing on the major characters non-readers are aware of, with the introduction of LS added to this. Unless D&D want to seriously restructure how episodes are done, which would be fairly difficult.

Staying with the notion of LS, I was convinced that she'd be the final scene of the finale, so I was surprised when it was, yet again, Dany. Though in hindsight, it would have made sense to leave LS's introduction until season four - structurally it would make more sense, but emotionally as well. I was convinced an emotional uplift was required in this episode following the RW, but LS would work better once Cat's death has sunk in, meaning a long-ish gap between death and resurrection would be required to happen, and perhaps some non-readers will have all but forgotten about her, then bang, her body is discovered and LS comes into the equation. In all, I think that way of going about LS is better, so now I'm glad she wasn't rushed frantically into the final scene after an already frantic-ish episode wrapping up arcs and setting up season four.

In all, I really enjoyed this episode, and is definitely not worthy of some of the criticism it has received - if anything, it has enhanced the story and set up some serious excitement.

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Does anyone else feel we have confirmation that Tyrion isn't a trueborn Lannister? The way Tywin stuttered "You're a a a...Lannister!" Charles Dance is an incredible actor. I think it has been confirmed

Also, absolutely loved the wolf head stiched on Robbs body

The show absolutely sucks now that there is no Coldhands! haha

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Does anyone else feel we have confirmation that Tyrion isn't a trueborn Lannister? The way Tywin stuttered "You're a a a...Lannister!" Charles Dance is an incredible actor. I think it has been confirmed

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. It's that quote coupled with the way he said "Because I can not prove that YOU ARE NOT MINE" in one of the earlier episodes.

Seems like a pretty strong hint to me.

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In terms of the Asha/Yara rescue, I can't see this materalising and becoming a major arc - I think season four will be primarily focusing on the major characters non-readers are aware of, with the introduction of LS added to this. Unless D&D want to seriously restructure how episodes are done, which would be fairly difficult.

I agree with this. Certain changes need to be made because this is a television adaptation and the story needs to be a bit more focused. I mean yeah, I'd love it if they stayed true to the books 100%, but I'm not going to throw a hissy fit because Asha Greyjoy's story is changed slightly. My guess is that they won't change the arc much beyond what she said in this episode. Everything will still more or less happen the way it does in the books.

The depiction of Stannis as a jihadist aside, I enjoyed the episode. I don't mind it ending on a more uplifting note.

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I thought the season finale was good. However I would have preferred Stannis's plan to head north would be more of surprise like in the books. They should have had Davos show him the letter, Mel taking it from Davos and reading it,end scene. I don't think they needed anything else. Anyone else a little disappointed in the lack of Mance Rayder this season?

Yeah sorta, but I don't think he's in the first half of the book much anyway. Pretty sure they included most of the stuff he does.
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I really liked the episode. I don't mind not seeing UnCat and hope I never do, she is my least favorite chatracter. Plus, not seeing her would mean no UnJon later!

Loved the small council scene, each one nailed their part perfectly.

Liked Jaime's return, though I think Tywin seeing him would have had more impact, the shock on his face when the golden child returns as damaged goods.

Grey Wolf / Robb, needed to see it to get across the horrific treatment by the Freys. Sucks that they had Arya seeing it though.

Ayra killing the Frey, badass moment of the season. Her flipping him the FM man coin, then staring at it after, forshadowing her training, very nice.

Jon / Ygritte, not so much...I thought it was a dream sequence. What are the odds that she finds him alone? Should have been handled differently.

Tyrion / Sansa bonding scene, I can understand this, he is a funny guy with a great personality, so you could see them sharing a laugh, but no more, after the RW I think they will have her ignoring him. BTW, really, with Pod again? All the girls in KL now seem to know he is a stud?

Frey / Bolton scene, liked this. It helps explain some of what was done and why. Especially liked the discussion just before this scene about how guest rights were broken and Gods can never forgive that.

Dany....waste of a scene. I like her and the people around her but that just felt like filler.

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Does nobody else think that attacking the Dreadfort with 50 men is one of the dumbest things you have ever heard? How could one possibly ever think that was a good idea.

Stupid Greyjoys.

....unless she's just going back to Deepwood Motte.

Unless she is talking about an equivalent of a commando raid and not a full frontal assault yes.

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