[Book Spoilers] EP310 Discussion

[Rohanne]

Roose made a comment about Walder needing a new young girl to marry and I couldn't help but think of fake Arya. I know that wouldn't happen but something about that scene made me wonder.

[Wsaharan]

Glad you said this because I thought the exact same thing. I really didn't like his portrayal of Jon earlier on, but I think he's gotten better, and he nailed that scene. The exact kind of passionate, not quite the right words, emotive outburst that seemed very real to me. It was clearly an incredible awkward moment for the character, completely torn between two loves/duties, and I bought it 100%.

I agree! Can not understand all the Kit hate. But then again, this is the Internet. It's hard to portray a character that doesn't get really interesting until after almost three books have past. In my opinion.

[Frumpus]

The Kingsmoot doesn't occur until book 4...they are not going to cut Theon's uncles or the Martell family because these characters all play huge roles in the remaining books.

They don't play huge roles in the remaining books. They have their own storylines sure, but their storylines have almost no impact on the overall story. They have obviously been cut. There is zero reason to add Victarion and Euron into the story now that Asha is going off to do her ADwD storyline a bit early.

[thepooperthatwaspromised]

All your complaints are trivial I tell ya! Trivial! Have we not forgotten the real damage D&D have done to the show from season 2?!

That is, the whereabouts of Renly's peach! They gave us a fruit bowl. A fruit bowl on a desk! Hundreds cried out over it's omission! Old ladies threw their tea pots out the window in disgust! Without it, Stannis cannot be Stannis. The seven kingdoms will crumble. The Others will take over the peach lands! No wonder he is so grumpy, he's lacking in the natural vitamins of a peach from Renly's garden! For shame HBO! :P

Soooo funny :lol: ...and just to add, i've said before and i'll say it again, renly intimidated one of the biggest badasses in the land (stannis)...with a motherfuckin' PEACH!

[Lady Arwen]

All your complaints are trivial I tell ya! Trivial! Have we not forgotten the real damage D&D have done to the show from season 2?!

That is, the whereabouts of Renly's peach! They gave us a fruit bowl. A fruit bowl on a desk! Hundreds cried out over it's omission! Old ladies threw their tea pots out the window in disgust! Without it, Stannis cannot be Stannis. The seven kingdoms will crumble. The Others will take over the peach lands! No wonder he is so grumpy, he's lacking in the natural vitamins of a peach from Renly's garden! For shame HBO! :P

Preach! :bowdown: :bowdown:

[Mel_Rose]

All your complaints are trivial I tell ya! Trivial! Have we not forgotten the real damage D&D have done to the show from season 2?!

That is, the whereabouts of Renly's peach! They gave us a fruit bowl. A fruit bowl on a desk! Hundreds cried out over it's omission! Old ladies threw their tea pots out the window in disgust! Without it, Stannis cannot be Stannis. The seven kingdoms will crumble. The Others will take over the peach lands! No wonder he is so grumpy, he's lacking in the natural vitamins of a peach from Renly's garden! For shame HBO! :P

C'mon, it was a budget thing, peaches were expensive at time of filming :drunk:

[a free shadow]

Stannis sounded awfully like Daenerys Stormborn, when he started listing his names and titles all angry :lol:

I loved that Ygritte shot Jon, and not once.

Everything went nicely, except the only scene of Cersei talking again about Joffrey and how supposedly bad she has it. :ninja:

Oh, and Asha being a hypocrite. She now wants to save the ruin of Theon, while trying to bring down before, when he needed her most.

Edited June 12, 2013 by A Shadow

[ExBruinsFan]

Maybe Shae really is working for Tywin?? All this unconditional love is unrealistic, D+D must realize that, they're not stupid. If, however, Shae was paid by Tywin (or Cersei, maybe??), it would make sense for her to turn down Varys. They like twists, and I wouldn't mind this one.

Were you one of the 'Talisa is spy' clan?

;)

[mwizzle83]

I apologize if this has been brought up but I had to..So who was the guy when Yara was walking (almost at end of that scene), the guy looked in his mid 40's, had dark black hair and a scar, he was looking at her strangely. He certainly looked like a Victorian to me.

I don't think that guy is anyone important. They just closed in on him as an example of the badass group she recruited for the mission. Plus, Victarian would not be part of Yara's crew, he would be the captain of his own ship.

[rmholt]

Well, makes sense, seems to have been a very impromptu thing on the show, while the battle was still going on. Wouldn't have time to sew it on.

The campers said it was sewn on.

[maria underfoot]

Were you one of the 'Talisa is spy' clan?

;)

You got me :P

I mean come on, there has to be a spy!

[rmholt]

Roose made a comment about Walder needing a new young girl to marry and I couldn't help but think of fake Arya. I know that wouldn't happen but something about that scene made me wonder.

I thought that too, but rejected it. Takes out the whole motivation for the Winterfell assault.

No Coldhands? *sniff* Yes, you can totally cast someone for 1 scene if you want and need them to be cast. I think they need "stuff to happen" in season 4 so they're saving coldhands for some big intro north of the wall.

No UnCat - I always always imagined a simple 5 second moonlight reveal at the very very end of the series but instead we get...

Stannis - I can't say I'm a fan of his in the books, but I see why he has a following. In the series you can see that they're trying to portray him as downright despicable. I don't get why.

but

I loved Arya's killing. genius.

I thought it likely that Coldhands was animated via Bloodraven just to get Bran to the cave. Dont know who is going to guide them - with Osha gone. Perhaps he will show up or some other guide. Without the elk (probably an expensive proposition for such a small role) it wouldnt be the same anyway. Plus a real long trip - not great TV

Cat has to rot for 3 days. Dont know why she didnt scratch up her face - wouldnt have been that hard. Goes with the mystery of Theon's perfect teeth.

I see Stannis portrayed more as determined to win the throne as honorably as possible but willing to make adjustments.

My favorite part of the Arya stabby on 2nd watching was how the Hound just sat down and started finishing off the dinner.

How did Jon survive all of this is a mystery, I'm beginning to believe he's the Kurgan reborn.

Armor

(copied from ratings thread)

Favorite scenes:

- RW finale at the Twins, with poor Arya witnessing the barbaric RobbWind desecration (glad they included this, though the head did not look sewn on), and slimy Walder Frey and Roose Bolton gloating. Can't wait for their takedown.

- Arya takes revenge on the jeering Frey soldier! A skillfully deceptive Valar Morghulis scene, masterfully done. No wonder we love Maisie Williams' Arya. I look forward to more Arya/Hound road trip; they're fun to watch. I'm not a Hound fan, but I'm coming around.

- Balon and Asha/Yara Greyjoy debate over the horrific Theon-cock-in-a-box. OMG. I disliked the Asha actress last season (worst casting, along with Shae), but she did a fine job at standing up to worst-father-contender Balon and charging off to rescue her brother. I was a bit surprised that Ramsay flayed the 20 Ironborn at Winterfell, though in retrospect I should have expected it. That's how he rolls, just as Roose trained him.

- Every scene with Davos and/or Shireen is a win; both actors are terrific. And Stannis is headed to the Wall. Finally someone takes the Night's Watch warnings seriously.

- Short changed: Sansa grieving the RW, Jaime's inconclusive reunion with Cersei.I'm already suffering from GoT withdrawal. I want more, and I want it NOW. Bring on the PW!

Agree on Arya and Hound scenes. I see no reason the gate at the Nightfort should not be protected by spells. Surely the wildlings or the Others would have used it if it werent warded.

So you take Ramsay and Roose at their words? Though this time they are probably telling the truth.

Instead of short changed I would say powerfully understated.

Davos and Shireen is really good. So was Davos and Gendry. Davos is a natural leader i guess.

I disagree. Cersei is definitely shallow and uses Jaime, but I think she genuinely loves him too. When she said, “My brother is worth a hundred of your friend” and various other occasions, she seems genuinely fond of him. Now, in this scene, Cersei shows none of that feeling, so I call it a miss.

Re: lack of sept scene, there was an interview with Lena Headey recently in which she said they’re deliberately keeping Cersei’s clothes on because when we finally see her naked, it’s against her choice (paraphrase). For that reason, we may not see the sept scene or any of her affairs. Then, the WOS will be more shocking.

I think Cersei and Jaime loved each other in an immature sort of way - they were rather spoiled and coddled and didnt have any real adult behaviors. When Jaime started growing, Cersei was shrinking. When they came back together in the books they just couldnt bring themselves to the same level of intimacy and trust. Who knows what will happen in the show.

The Martells absolutely have to be there for the PW

The Oberyn-Mountain duel absolutely has to happen - great scene for TV, like the Bronn-Vardis fight.

2. Did not get the sense Roose and Walder are buddies. In fact, more got the sense that Roose was trying to hint that Blackfish will be a future assache and Frey just didn't listen, much like the young wolf didn't.

3. Did not at all get the sense that Tyrion and Sansa are buddies. The story has to get Sansa to this place of completely giving up everything that she was - idealistic, romantic, hopeful - in order to become strong enough to turn it all off. A couple weeks ago she believed Loras was going to be her shining knight, even though he didn't even remember the moment she thought was her proof that he would be - the red rose he gave her at the tourney. Tyrion has been nothing but kind. Even if she never wants him in her bed, she knows he was forced into this marriage too, she knows he's saved her from Joffrey's abuses more than a few times, it's no stretch of the imagination that she might allow herself, and him, a MOMENT to believe that they might be friendly, if nothing else. The moment she realizes her mother and Robb are dead - that is the moment the armor will never come off again.

4. Shae loving Tyrion and Sansa. Here i do agree that D & D are deviating from the source material - BUT - in order to up the tragedy. TVShae has already been made considerably more 'ambitious' than BookShae. She wants to be his lady, she wants to be legitimized ( which IMO is ridiculous, but for the purposes of TV and having a character on for 3 seasons, and making her death tragic, i see why they made that choice), but as such, she needs to want more than gold out of the arrangement and if she loves Sansa, all the more drama...I suspect that Tyrion is going to make some choice in the future that seems to pick Sansa over Shae (again), and that will push Shae over the edge enough for her to betray him in the trial (and with his father)

5. Varys - his stuff with Shae makes perfect sense to me since I also think he was Symon Silver Tongue in the books, so I think his motives on the show are pretty transparent.

I like how they have changed the Sansa-Tyrion dynamic and Shae's motivations. In the book she was always a whore. I cant see Tyrion strangling her now or her betraying him at his trial. Well if she does turn on him they'll have to make her mad at him since she is truly fond of him now. Or maybe she is just fond of his money and thinks it will go on forever. She actually seems LESS ambitious to me than Book Shae. Book Shae is always pushing Tyrion for more status. I wonder if she did this because she was also with Tywin and therefore not frightened about being discovered. TV Shae seems happy where she is.

Tyrion was kind but he was ugly (and that was meaningful to the dreamer Sansa) and he was a Lannister and she had declared war on all Lannisters. I preferred her being able to banter with Tyrion and showing some adjustment to her status and some dark humor about it instead of being paralyzed all the time.

I cannot see how Varys could possibly be Symon Silver Tongue. WHY? Personally I think he is either hiding in Essos or is the Hooded Man. Or both.

[thepooperthatwaspromised]

I thought that too, but rejected it. Takes out the whole motivation for the Winterfell assault.

Cat has to rot for 3 days. Dont know why she didnt scratch up her face - wouldnt have been that hard. Goes with the mystery of Theon's perfect teeth.

I see Stannis portrayed more as determined to win the throne as honorably as possible but willing to make adjustments.

My favorite part of the Arya stabby on 2nd watching was how the Hound just sat down and started finishing off the dinner.

Agree on Arya and Hound scenes.

I see no reason the gate at the Nightfort should not be protected by spells. Surely the wildlings or the Others would have used it if it werent warded.

Instead of short changed I would say powerfully understated.

Davos and Shireen is really good. So was Davos and Gendry. Davos is a natural leader i guess.

I think Cersei and Jaime loved each other in an immature sort of way - they were rather spoiled and coddled and didnt have any real adult behaviors. When Jaime started growing, Cersei was shrinking. When they came back together in the books they just couldnt bring themselves to the same level of intimacy and trust. Who knows what will happen in the show.

The Oberyn-Mountain duel absolutely has to happen - great scene for TV, like the Bronn-Vardis fight.

I like how they have changed the Sansa-Tyrion dynamic and Shae's motivations. In the book she was always a whore. I cant see Tyrion strangling her now or her betraying him at his trial. Well if she does turn on him they'll have to make her mad at him since she is truly fond of him now. Or maybe she is just fond of his money and thinks it will go on forever. She actually seems LESS ambitious to me than Book Shae. Book Shae is always pushing Tyrion for more status. I wonder if she did this because she was also with Tywin and therefore not frightened about being discovered. TV Shae seems happy where she is.

Tyrion was kind but he was ugly (and that was meaningful to the dreamer Sansa) and he was a Lannister and she had declared war on all Lannisters. I preferred her being able to banter with Tyrion and showing some adjustment to her status and some dark humor about it instead of being paralyzed all the time.

I cannot see how Varys could possibly be Symon Silver Tongue. WHY? Personally I think he is either hiding in Essos or is the Hooded Man. Or both.

Cool, I mean this in the sincerest, respectful, way, you have left me a LOT to respond to, and much of it in agreement. And damn you to seven hells ;), :lol: for calling me out and making me have to explain the Symon Silver Tongue thing because there is a TON of material I have drawn this theory from, and it is an enormous assache to have to focus it all, eeeek!!!! :eek:

So...

1. Arya Frey - you and me and he all (briefly) thought it, I think/hope for shits and giggles more than any other reason, but very clearly not to be.

2. Thank you for pointing this out about Cat. i know people are really upset about LSH not making her grand entrance, but this episode takes place from and up until like 24 hours after the RW. In real time, has Nymeria even found her yet?

3. Theon's perfect teeth - hehehe. Requires a lot more time in makeup for total face gashing and teeth removal than one might imagine so I get the changes here.

4. Stannis, to me, has been a problem character for GOT (not the books, mind, you, but the TV series) from the start. In both, I think he's actually one of the most complicated characters, but in TV it's truly difficult to write a complicated character convincingly within the confines of 3 minute scenes. I feel like he, almost more than anyone else, though he seems the least flexible, actually flexes the most over the entirety of what we've seen so far. I'm not sure I'm making any sense, and maybe this deserves it's own post, but I find him the most conflicted, if that's the right word, of all the "kings", and for any TV writer, that's a tough person to convey.

5. I love the Hound. I love Arya. I think both of their TV adaptations have been soooo well done, and find myself (fanfic-ly) wishing that the two of them could just roam around Westeros doing their thing for the remainder of the series.

6. agreed - don't understand why Nightfort isn's explicitly spell protected, for all the reasons you stated, but do understand not introducing Coldhands... yet. They've already kept Osha on for far longer than she appeared in the books, no sense in paying another actor until they are going to become a series reg.

7. "Instead of shortchanged...When Jaime started growing, Cersei started shrinking..." Amen. I am probably among the minority, but I actually loved the Jaime/Cersei scene. Book version with Sept sex was powerful, because it conveyed the desperation to hold onto what they once felt for each other, but this scene conveyed to me so much more about where they are headed. I saw, hope, relief, disappointment, and uncertainty in both actors and I don't think there could have been any words or actions that could have better relayed their journeys to this point (I will probably now be promptly skewered for this interpretation)

8. Yay. 'nuff said about Oberyn/Mountain stuff.

9. Davos...swoon. Everything you said, YES. And I was stupid enough to find him kinda boring up until now.

10. Okay, here is where we diverge. Book Shae never asked to be brought to KL. BookShae never gave Tyrion jealous shit about Sansa. BookShae talked about keeping her pretty stuff but never talked about Tyrion being ashamed of her, or him never fathering children for her because they would bastards or even being only his "whore" (TVShae's words, not mine). BookShae never said the I am your/You are mine stuff, nor offered to cut off the faces of people that threatened Tyrion. TVShae wants a lot more than just money, which TV Tyrion has already offered her, she wants legitimacy, which to me, is more ambitious.

11. YES. TVSansa has been crying already for like the past 3 episodes. In order to make the impact of the RW (my imagination fails me here) IMPACTFUL, TVSansa needs to have had a moment of respite, a moment where she is feeling something other than grief, and hate, a moment where she feels some sort of empowered deviousness. On the other hand, I do think they could have done something a little more with her reaction to the RW.

12. Regarding Symon Silver Tongue, since I cursed myself by bringing it up, I will go into further depth about it if you want, but I fear I have rambled faaaaarrrrr too long already on this post so if you're sure you really, really want it, let me know... :kiss:

and again, thank you.

[thepooperthatwaspromised]

oh, almost forgot, Varys being in Essos or The Hooded Man past ASOS is not at all in conflict with me, as SST is believed to have died right before Varys disappears from Westeros.

[eumaies]

I would have replaced the Shae scene with ANY scene... It just does not make any sense!

She is a prostitute, he is married, and is a high lord, she would never have the chance to be his wife, she makes very clear that she is unhappy with the situation, she is risking her life everyday, and that much in diamonds were like a giant fortune... Why in the WORLD would`t she take it?

I believe they are showing this, just to create a drama around her treason... but seriously, there are much more interesting characters that should be given that space in the episode...

There's not going to be any Shae betrayal. The TV character is completely different. She's going to be killed or worse by Tywin and then Tyrion avenges her. you could tell from season 2 on that Shae and Tyrion were never gonna go as they did in the books. Totally different characters and story. While I think they did a B- job with the season, I can't really fault D&D for making Shae a sympathetic character in the show. Three seasons of Tyrion loving a transparently insincere whore wouldn't have worked well on TV.

[Rashtibram]

I really, really don't get what people are complaining about. Yes, the 'Mhysa' scene was cheesy and had uncomfortable racial undertones which I didn't notice when I read that scene in the books, but everything else was great! Arya's killing was brilliant, everything KL especially the council meeting, Dragonstone, Bran and Sam, all brilliantly executed. LS would have put the perfect finish on the episode, but you can't have everything. I only had a few gripes, one of which being that the scene between Roose and Walder felt a bit like the two cliché laughing villains, but again, that's a nitpick. As for Coldhands, Bran has about four or five more chapters to span what will likely be 2 or more seasons, so they can easily introduce Coldhands in an interesting way to add some action to his story.

[ExBruinsFan]

There's not going to be any Shae betrayal. The TV character is completely different. She's going to be killed or worse by Tywin and then Tyrion avenges her. you could tell from season 2 on that Shae and Tyrion were never gonna go as they did in the books. Totally different characters and story. While I think they did a B- job with the season, I can't really fault D&D for making Shae a sympathetic character in the show. Three seasons of Tyrion loving a transparently insincere whore wouldn't have worked well on TV.

I completely agree.

[Fragon]

There's not going to be any Shae betrayal. The TV character is completely different. She's going to be killed or worse by Tywin and then Tyrion avenges her. you could tell from season 2 on that Shae and Tyrion were never gonna go as they did in the books. Totally different characters and story. While I think they did a B- job with the season, I can't really fault D&D for making Shae a sympathetic character in the show. Three seasons of Tyrion loving a transparently insincere whore wouldn't have worked well on TV.

So Tyrion won't kill Shae... well I can't see how he can be more whitewashed than this.. oh yes, maybe he won't even kill Tywin, it will be Tywin who will try to kill Tyrion and at her dying moments Shae will reach the crossbow and save Tyrion's life and die.

[Conchobar]

Fcuk I hope that doesn't happen. Tyrion need to kill Shae and Tywin.

[The Killer Snark]

He has to kill Shae, granted, in order to demonstrate how wrecked and cynical his character becomes in ADwD. It makes no sense that Shae would turned down a fortune from Varys not be with Tyrion if they're going to play it that way, but it definitely is a very important moment re: his decision to kill Tywin in the third book.