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[Book Spoilers] EP310 Discussion


Ran
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Well maybe Shae thought she would get more out of Tyrion but then having her die for Sansa? !!!!!

I agree and I find asking myself why there aren't more people being critical of Shae's "I would die for Sansa"-quote.

We never get to know why she feels so strongly towards Sansa. Yes, we were shown them bonding together - mainly in Season 2 - and I think it's fairly clear that Shae wants to adopt the role of a protector towards Sansa (as seen in her Scene with Ros for example). But in my opinion it isn't enough to justify such a strong statement; her line felt way over the top and came seemingly out of the blue. What exaclty does Shae see in Sansa and why would she be willing to go that far in protecting her that she would give her own life?

Note, I'm not complaining that BookShae (who I found quite a strong character btw) would never have done such a thing but that they are disregarding the fundamental Television prinicple called "show, don't tell".

The same with Jon beyond the wall. We hear both Mance Rayder and Tormund saying "I like you, boy, but....". But WHY do they like him? What has Jon done to earn not just their respect but their sympathy? Of course, we have to accept their statement and believe it justified because the writers tell us so...

As for Dany and racism: I really dign't care at all, even if it weren't for the fact that they wouldn't be flying any multi-colored extras in. I don't know why there is such a huge uproar about this - could it be an American thing? You know, because Americans are more sensitive to political correctness and tend to be more easily offended by such things because of their cultural circumstances? I can't tell since I live in Europe and I'm therefore only guessing.

Also, we got a great example of an invented scene (how long has that been?) in the form of Tyrion/Tywin. The fact that Tywin went against his own interest and wishes in favor of the familiy by letting Tyrion live is an aspect that wasn't explored in the books (at least I don't remember). I could totally picture BookTywin thinking/saying this but it was never mentioned. Even if Tywin's "For the family"-talk has gotten repetitive - THIS is how adaption is done. They expanded upon the character without changing or cheapening his motivations, thus achieving more depth.

But overall, it was a pretty meh-finale for a pretty meh-season...

Edited by MachoGrande
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I think it was a crappy finale. Every freaking season is gonna end with Dany and the stupid dragons? they're forgetting that winter is coming and that's the whole reason of the story in general terms, the awakening of the ancient magic and stuff. Yeah, everybody loves dragons, but there's more than that in the whole story... I feel the plots were unnecessarily extended just to get more material in the next season.

Ending this season with lady stoneheart would have been great, or even showing coldhands, or the magic door... I don't know something less trivial. It was a really epic closure of the season, but doesn't have what the other previous seasons had: something to expect for the next season. I mean, yeah of course we know what's gonna happen, but I mean it for the people who haven't read the books and doesn't know what to expect.

Yet is the best season so far, but.. I don't know, that just how I feel in the end: kinda disappointed after an amazing adaptation of the red wedding.

Edited by GabrielOfMyr
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Tyrion kills her: He is the hero of the show and it will be VERY difficult as they've characterized her to date for her to turn evil enough to make her murder justified.

This is my reasoning in a nutshell.

They've chosen their path with Shae and Tyrion's character, and while it's strays from the source material in many ways, I take no issue with it. Yeah, Tyrion's way more ambivalent and complex in the books, but with so few characters remaining for viewers to root for that'd be considered a "hero," or even just "good" people, the decision to make him such makes sense.

Still, we should begin to see his darker side at some point. Ultimately, when he learns that Jamie betrayed him (with Tysha) that, coupled with losing Shae, will wipe out the short list of people who actually cared about him -- and vice versa. The end result is the same, just a slightly different means of arriving there.

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This is my reasoning in a nutshell.

They've chosen their path with Shae and Tyrion's character, and while it's strays from the source material in many ways, I take no issue with it. Yeah, Tyrion's way more ambivalent and complex in the books, but with so few characters remaining for viewers to root for that'd be considered a "hero," or even just "good" people, the decision to make him such makes sense.

Still, we should begin to see his darker side at some point. Ultimately, when he learns that Jamie betrayed him (with Tysha) that, coupled with losing Shae, will wipe out the short list of people who actually cared about him -- and vice versa. The end result is the same, just a slightly different means of arriving there.

I don't have a problem w/making Tyrion a nicer guy on the show, Dinklage is fantastic, and I agree, it can't that everyone who isn't a child is a jerk.

I don't really get why they chose to make Shae the hooker with a heart of gold, given their penchant for red herrings, I would have thought making her role more ambiguious where the audience is never sure if she means it/or is faking it would have been a better choice and would have given them more leeway in how to wrap her story up. Having her refuse a giant bag of diamonds, enough to live well on for the rest of her life is stretching credulity beyond the limits.

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I agree and I find asking myself why there aren't more people being critical of Shae's "I would die for Sansa"-quote.

I believe the quote was "I would kill for that girl" -- very different level of commitment there :). I agree with the other poster Shae is a fairly boring character whore with a heart of gold, but that's the level of subtlety that D&D bring to the table. They just don't have it in them to make a great show, in spite of some great plot material to work with. I enjoy it, but it's not as good as it might've been. On a related vein, I totally expect them to botch the opportunity inherent in Dany staying and leading people in her city in the far east. The cool opportunity from that is to showcase here losing control of a foreign population due to her own underestimating the complexity of upsetting a complex culture/economy/political situation and the difficulty of governing. Instead, I fully expect Dany to be the shining white hero who combats villians in the "middle east." Just some pre-bi**ing for seasons 4-5 :).
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I believe the quote was "I would kill for that girl" -- very different level of commitment there :). I agree with the other poster Shae is a fairly boring character whore with a heart of gold, but that's the level of subtlety that D&D bring to the table. They just don't have it in them to make a great show, in spite of some great plot material to work with. I enjoy it, but it's not as good as it might've been. On a related vein, I totally expect them to botch the opportunity inherent in Dany staying and leading people in her city in the far east. The cool opportunity from that is to showcase here losing control of a foreign population due to her own underestimating the complexity of upsetting a complex culture/economy/political situation and the difficulty of governing. Instead, I fully expect Dany to be the shining white hero who combats villians in the "middle east." Just some pre-bi**ing for seasons 4-5 :).

My interpretation is that they're building up Shae (by making her love both Sansa and Tyrion) and Dany up as much as possible (hence the polarizing white savior crowd surfing scenes) just to dramatize their inevitable great falls.

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I don't really get why they chose to make Shae the hooker with a heart of gold, given their penchant for red herrings, I would have thought making her role more ambiguious where the audience is never sure if she means it/or is faking it would have been a better choice and would have given them more leeway in how to wrap her story up. Having her refuse a giant bag of diamonds, enough to live well on for the rest of her life is stretching credulity beyond the limits.

Maybe when they came to the realization that they were stuck with an abysmal actress, they felt that having some redeeming qualities would offset that.

I kid, I kid (...sorta). I'm with you -- idk why they went that route with her character.

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I don't have a problem w/making Tyrion a nicer guy on the show, Dinklage is fantastic, and I agree, it can't that everyone who isn't a child is a jerk.

I don't really get why they chose to make Shae the hooker with a heart of gold, given their penchant for red herrings, I would have thought making her role more ambiguious where the audience is never sure if she means it/or is faking it would have been a better choice and would have given them more leeway in how to wrap her story up. Having her refuse a giant bag of diamonds, enough to live well on for the rest of her life is stretching credulity beyond the limits.

I still think Peter Dinklage had as much influence in shaping his role and Dave and Dan had to go with it, I think the same is true of Charles Dance , they gave him good dialog and just by his craft skills he has given Tywin more dimension.

To me Sibel Kekilli is still an odd choice, she apparently spoke little English, so I don't even know how she auditioned for the role. In an interview she said she was nervous and a bit confused the first season.

So far she had really only had one good episode , S2E9, where she seemed a different person.

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I thought it was a good episode.

I just LOVED all the Frey pie forshadowing. The Rat Cook story, folllwed by a Walder scene, followed by Ramsy and "It's a sausage, I'm not that barbaric...״ LOL

And there were a lot of good Jokes besides that, Like Davos and Gendery scene with the boat and Tyrion sending Joffery to bed without his supper. Oh, and that judgemental look that Asha (Yara?) gave Balon...

And Sam was such a badass I loves that!

And it was the first time this season we saw Cercei without sleeves. She has beautiful shoulders, why does she cover them all the time?!?

And Roose is so hot I am dying.

Dany's scene was a little cheesy but heart warming, but I hated there was no LS! I really hoped she would be thus episode...

And Shea loving Tyrion WTF?!? That bitch is only there for his money and everyone knows that, even Tyrion!

So, for conclusion, a very fine episode. I can't believe I have to wait another year for the next one...

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I still think Peter Dinklage had as much influence in shaping his role and Dave and Dan had to go with it, I think the same is true of Charles Dance , they gave him good dialog and just by his craft skills he has given Tywin more dimension.

To me Sibel Kekilli is still an odd choice, she apparently spoke little English, so I don't even know how she auditioned for the role. In an interview she said she was nervous and a bit confused the first season.

So far she had really only had one good episode , S2E9, where she seemed a different person.

well she's a ex pornstar, so maybe before they decided to go with the route they did they said "hey your job was to get fucked, her job is to fuck, your in"
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Having everyone behaving like backstabbing weasels is no more creative or imaginative than having everyone be a paragon of virtue. An epic tale requires a few white hats to play off the greys and blacks.

I do agree that Shae is unconvincingly noble in the season closer. She is quite convincingly stupid, however.

Edited by ExBruinsFan
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Technically, its Bran and Daenerys's dragons but only the slaves calling her mother have acess to their protection for now.

Well...assuming that's what Bran's warging powers are for.

And the more I think about it, not sure 3 dragons will be quite enough for what is an army of thousands of Undead unless the three male babies can have offspring, and lots of it.

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I'm a bit sad that people seem unable to accept that a sex worker can experience human emotions. It's far from uncommon for sex workers to wind up in relationships with former clients.

TV-Shae is completely different to Book-Shae. I hated Book Shae; she was shallow, two-faced and cold. TV-Shae is a completely different person who has developed a deep and genuine attachment to Tyrion, and I don't find it unbelievable at all that she would turn down a sack of cash to stay with him. She has shown since the season 2 finale that she's moved the relationship from transactional to emotional.

Whereas Book-Shae made it clear that she didn't give a toss that Tyrion was marrying Sansa, TV-Shae became jealous and insecure - because she loves Tyrion.

In the books, I found Tyrion's attachment to Shae deeply irritating - Tyrion is a clever man, so why would he waste himself on a woman who was always, quite clearly, in it for the money? On the show, the relationship makes much more sense.

So where does this leave Shae's storyline? I can think of several ways in which they can still have Tyrion murder Shae, and seeing as Varys has made it clear he wants Shae gone, it would make sense for him to be involved. Suppose he plants Shae in Tywin's bed, telling her that Tyrion wants a secret tryst with her? Then Tyrion arrives and assumes she's betrayed him, so strangles her. This would bring in the chain as well, because she could easily have decided to wear it for Tyrion.

This would be my preferred approach, because show-Tyrion does need to show the darkness inside him. If he then finds out that Shae didn't actually betray him, then it will be Tysha all over again, sending him even further on that downward spiral.

Alternatively, Tywin kills her, or has her killed, making good on his threat to hang "the next whore I find in your bed", or perhaps as a punishment for not cooperating with Tyrion's trial. This would then prompt Tyrion to kill Tywin (extra impetus on top of the reveal about Tysha.)

I certainly don't think she'll survive season 4, and in many ways I think the show will be the poorer for it. I find her attractive, and her acting, for me, is fine.

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And the more I think about it, not sure 3 dragons will be quite enough for what is an army of thousands of Undead unless the three male babies can have offspring, and lots of it.

Maester Aemon tells Sam (I think? haven't got my books with me, I'm at work) that dragons can change sex, so potentially all three of Dany's clutch could lay eggs. I don't think it's ever been mentioned how many eggs would be in a typical laying.

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I'm a bit sad that people seem unable to accept that a sex worker can experience human emotions. It's far from uncommon for sex workers to wind up in relationships with former clients.

It's not that she can't experience emotions, it's that two episodes ago she very clearly stated she knows her position, his whore, not his lady. That I thought was stronger than her coming out with the love declaration - telling Tyrion that she still is what she always has been while he is seeing little hearts around her head. It makes for a great comparative relationship with Bronn - both are as loyal as the money they are given.

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The issue isn't that sex workers can't have emotions or fall in love with their clients, it is that THIS PARTICULAR sex worker--we know is going to end up dead, so the decisions made about her character are puzzling, especially if the show sticks with the major plot point of having Tyrion kill her. Sex workers, I would think also are capable of logic and rational thinking, in which case TV Shae should have taken the bag of diamonds.

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