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[Book Spoilers] EP310 Discussion

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I'm very surprised at how many of you book readers expected to see Lady Stoneheart appear in this episode. She doesn't show until the very end of ASoS, which means she'll appear next season. And no, Dany does not walk around for six minutes at the end of the show.

I was disappointed in the change in the Asha storyline, going off to rescue little brother. At least they made perfectly clear the fact that Theon lost his manhood, no more speculation about that point required.

I'm also very disappointed in Jaime reaching King's Landing before the Purple Wedding, and not after.

Nice stare down between Joffrey and Tywin, especially the dead silence after Joffrey mocks his grandfather.

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He had to be talked in to it in the first place. The only way to do that was for Mel to convince him that millions of people would die if he didn't sacrifice the boy.

But he would have done it, had the choice not been taken out of his hands by Davos. The quote of Tywin talking about a dozen at dinner vs. 10,000 in battle was matched with Davos quote about a bastard nephew being "everything" next to the kingdom because in the books they match too.

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He had to be talked in to it in the first place. The only way to do that was for Mel to convince him that millions of people would die if he didn't sacrifice the boy.

So you don't think that's what happened in the show? He's not killing Gendry for the fun of it.

Stannis is the same fucking guy.

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I don't understand the point of rubbing Walder Frey in our faces if they weren't going to show Lady Stoneheart.

Arya stabbing a pissant and the Hound finishing the rest off was only slightly satisfying. And as if to completely offset the dark tone from where the last ep left off & tonight started, they did a completely over the top aerial view of Dany and her synchronized pets. As far as I'm concerned it only does the opposite: rubs sand in the wounds of people invested in Westeros.

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Stannis (and his fans) are no different from Jaimie (and his fans). They and their fans rationalize all the bad things they do, and then get mad at the show when it points out that they do these bad things.

Edited by go joff go

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Stannis is the same fucking guy.

That's just not correct. Take Edric/Gendry as a single example. In the books, Stannis opposed the idea greatly. He spent the better part of ASOS refusing Melisandre, and he even threatened her with a slow and painful death if she was deceiving him in anyway. He only became convinced that it needed to be done after witnessing the death of all 3 kings.

In the shows, he sees Gendry for about 5 seconds and tells Melisandre to do it and do it quickly.

Stannis (and his fans) are no different from Jaimie (and his fans). They and their fans rationalize all the bad things they do, and then get mad at the show when it points out that they do these bad things.

The show misrepresents the way these situations are handled, and this is why the fans get annoyed. At a skin-deep level they're the same character, but that's it. This shallow portrayel misses what makes book Stannis so great. Oh, and as GRRM described him, righteous.

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Stannis went to Davos because he had doubts! This was covered in episode 8! That's why they required the leeches.

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I apologize if this has been brought up but I had to..So who was the guy when Yara was walking (almost at end of that scene), the guy looked in his mid 40's, had dark black hair and a scar, he was looking at her strangely. He certainly looked like a Victorian to me.

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Next season is going to be fucking amazing.

Now I've gotta wait 3 months until football. :dunce:

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Hi all, first post here.

Why was the Sansa and sheep 'shift' dumb? Because it wasn't directly advancing the plot and it wasn't actiony? It wasn't a line from the books?

It was showing how for a moment she was getting comfortable right before the news hit about the RW. It also contrasts her situation with the Arya scene we saw right before.

It's characterization.

IMO it was "dumb" because it showed her "bonding" with Tyrion, which runs totally counter to the omnipresent tension throughout their short-lived marriage in the books; Sansa hates her situation, does not show any sort of affection for him whatsoever and spurns any attempts at such by him. This is more consistent with the fact that she's married to an ugly dwarf who is a part of the family that murdered her father and beat her. But, it also makes the Tyrion whitewashing a little more apparent.

I thought this episode wasn't one of the best (of course it was still enjoyable, overall.) I'm very upset by the exclusion of Coldhands this season. Yes, they can just introduce him next season, but at the cost of excluding the weirwood gate. The gate wasn't just cool to me, I had hopes that it would have some greater significance by the end of the book series. Now, I'm not so sure anymore.

I'm weirded out with the direction they went with Asha/Balon and I'm just not sure what they're going for. When I first saw Balon I thought for a split second that perhaps they might show his death (which would have had made much more sense to me than totally changing the ironborn plot thread at this point), but obviously this wasn't the case.

Ygritte/John scene was meh but I'm glad they at least decided to get the arrows in 'em. More cersei whitewashing, but she's a good actress! I liked the joff/tywin scene as well as the arya scene.

Edited by IamMe90

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I am really curious about what they are going to do with Jaime and Brienne next season.

I apologize if this has been brought up but I had to..So who was the guy when Yara was walking (almost at end of that scene), the guy looked in his mid 40's, had dark black hair and a scar, he was looking at her strangely. He certainly looked like a Victorian to me.

It was just a hardened pirate that gave the shot more power. Casting is a big deal, no way they are casting Victarion this early only for that shot. Not every single thing is significant.

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For the massive amount of people that hate UnCat in the books, I cannot fathom how so many people are disappointed with no LSH reveal this episode. And if there was a LSH reveal, you know all these same people would be complaining that it was too early for this reveal and it is so chronologically out of order since it happens in the ASOS epilogue.

I agree. I don't understand the complaints. we don't hear anything about catelyn's body for several chapters after the rw, and LS is revealed in the epilogue. in the book we're allowed to believe she's completely dead for half the book. if they're doing it right we don't see LS until the last episode of season 4.

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Hi all, first post here.

IMO it was "dumb" because it showed her "bonding" with Tyrion, which runs totally counter to the omnipresent tension throughout their short-lived marriage in the books; Sansa hates her situation, does not show any sort of affection for him whatsoever and spurns any attempts at such by him. This is more consistent with the fact that she's married to an ugly dwarf who is a part of the family that murdered her father and beat her. But, it also makes the Tyrion whitewashing a little more apparent.

I thought this episode wasn't one of the best (of course it was still enjoyable, overall.) I'm very upset by the exclusion of Coldhands this season. Yes, they can just introduce him next season, but at the cost of excluding the weirwood gate. The gate wasn't just cool to me, I had hopes that it would have some greater significance by the end of the book series. Now, I'm not so sure anymore.

I'm weirded out with the direction they went with Asha/Balon and I'm just not sure what they're going for. When I first saw Balon I thought for a split second that perhaps they might show his death (which would have had made much more sense to me than totally changing the ironborn plot thread at this point), but obviously this wasn't the case.

Ygritte/John scene was meh but I'm glad they at least decided to get the arrows in 'em. More cersei whitewashing, but she's a good actress! I liked the joff/tywin scene as well as the arya scene.

It was VERY short-lived though. A short period before she gets news of the Red Wedding. As we saw, she ignored Tyrion after she gets the news, she was mildly comfortable for a bit and she got SMASHED in the face with horrible news for it.

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But what is it about the show that keeps me loving Roose for some reason, god I hate it. Does anyone else have that problem.

Yuup. TV Roose seems more dignified? I'm not sure.

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On re watch...

I love how Bolton tells Frey that Robb ignored his advice at every turn and should have been less arrogant, right after Frey ignores Boltons warning about the danger of the Blackfish escaping. Bolton is playing at a higher level. I hope this is foreshadowing!

I tried to post this earlier but it got lost. I think there is a big problem with Brienne being in KL and Sansa still being there as well. Brienne will want to fulfill the mission of returning Sansa to the North, even if she knows that Caetlyn is dead. This could cause problems...

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“The revenge you seek…shall be yours in time.”

Just not this week…

I thought this was a solid ending episode; a good way to wrap up an otherwise difficult season. With that …

What I liked:

A Glimpse into Oblivion: Watching the obliteration of the remainder of the Army of the North was about as horrible as you could imagine. And obviously while it could not approach the Red Wedding, there was something chaotic about seeing Grey Wolf’s head a top Robb’s decapitated body. The joy from the Frey’s; they utter contempt for honor or law; the cheering the shear MADNESS of that entire spectacle – the unfettered brutality and barbarism locked into that parade of horribles was far more unsettling than I imagined.

And it made me think: this realm needs a King. Fast.

The King of Westeros and His Son: Obviously the genie finally escaped the bottle and if there were any doubt we now know that Tywin Lannister orchestrated the Red Wedding and defeated the North. The Freys get some titles, Roose Bolton gets the North, and Tywin Lannister gets plausible deniability. And he gets the win in the War of the Five Kings, outright and beyond doubt. And he now is winning the War for control of that very Kingdom. Dance’s Tywin is one of the best parts of this show and this episode he unleashed that hellfire on Joff AND on Tyrion, both well earned. And he explained exactly why this all got done: because you don’t get away with fucking with a Kingdom on his watch. Hey, at least some of the dead get shitty songs…

Honorable Mention to Tyrion, Cersei and Jaime for really well thought out parts and very telling dialog.

The Evolution of Sam Tarly: While Bran and Sam’s scenes were MUCH better in the books (the scene in the books begins funny and ends with Sam saying the words which rocked hard), I liked Sam’s entire development – hey, somebody had to kill a White Walker for the 1st time in 1000 years. But Sam’s true growth was shown in how he spoke to Maester Aemon and argued that the Wall must stand not against the few people born too far North, but for all men, wherever they may rest.

Hounds and Wolves: Arya’s vengeance was small and out of the way, but in many ways very glorious. She got her anger out on one loud-mouthed idiot. Just don’t forget about the fact that you brought Darth Vader to a knife fight. That guy is 10-tons of death swinging steel.

Davos, the Slow Learner: I am a great fan Davos. It’s the actor, it’s the story, it’s the writing, its his overwhelming humanity. Of all the things in Stannis’ story-line Davos is the best part. Great job.

The Rebirth of a Greyjoy: She is going to save her brother … we may be onto something here…

What I am Not Sure about:

Hey, Did You Know Dany Was That White: I know that the show needed to end on a high note; I know that the Dany story-line has to keep pace with the Westeros one; I know that freeing slaves is an IMPORTANT thing to do. And while I liked her message (she does not give people freedom; people are already free), HOLY SHIT did that scene reek of White Paternalism. Did the slaves have to be that dark? Does Dany have to be that ridiculously white? I know that in the book I may have just missed the message, but here in the show… hard to not notice how … patronizing that all looked.

And it also seemed hollow after watching the brutal and oftentimes horribleness of the last 2 episodes. I thought the show tried wayyyyyyyyyyyy too hard to make the show end on a “high note.” Sometimes, “trying too hard” shows. It sure did there.

Shae the May Not Be a Whore: I detest Shae. Actress is unwatchable, her presence in many scenes is ridiculously detracting from the interesting characters; the writing is the worst of both worlds – they are not writing anything original but at the same time trying to change her into a mutant. So, yeah, both her and her story are terrible… what was I saying again? Oh, yeah, I am sort of interested in how they will kill her next season. Because its not going the way I thought, and the trajectory is not right for what happened in the books. But I still hope they kill her. Because she’s fucking terrible.

What I Did Not Like:

Hey Glad I Found You: I never get the Jon and Ygritte chase scenes. So, let me get this straight. Ygritte- who from what I can gather has NEVER rode a horse- somehow was able to track down a well trained horse rider (Jon). She got off her horse, sneaks up to Jon (because the campflage there is sooooo fucking good) and gets the drop omn him Juuuuuuuust long enough for him to complain about their love and for her to shoot him at close range three times but not kill him. Okay…

So… was it me or was that the MOST CONTRIEVED SCENE EVER! They just needed Jon to get wounded worse so she shoots him. Ygritte was … incredible (actress is killing it). It was so bad that I really thought it was a dream sequence. To me, if you are going to have two characters meet up, make it more meaningful than that. I think they should have had Ygritte do her actions in the last episode. But … just gotta feed the beast I guess.

The Rightful King’s Unworthy Devolution: I get why he could not free Gendry; I get why he sentences Davios to death; I get what Stannis is and why he is trying to make this work when its so frustrating losing that way when he should have won. BUT FUCK ALL … he couldn’t even be the guy to lift Davos’ death sentence! It had to be mel. Because stannis cannot make a decision himself. Fuck that; God forbid the leader act like a leader; no no no – it has to be Mel. Because maybe we hadn’t caught that she is making everything work there. Not stannis- nope! He just whines and gets bitchy when Mel overrides him etc.

I now think that the show has abandoned Stannis. I just hope they can have the decency to give him some spine before the show ends and let him actually grow as a character. Because watching Stannis be a docuhebag for 10 hours every season is not THAT much fun (its still kinda fun, though).

OVERALL: The season was very much like last season: very uneven. The good episodes were exceptional; the bad episodes empty. I think the big winners were obviously Dance as Tywin and Cunningham as Davos. I also think Arya and the Hound work out great and the return of Selmy was well done. I also thought Robb was incredible. Finally, I thought Ygritte and Thoren Giantsbane were tremendous.

But the problem was all the filler time- episodes that did not go anywhere and that did not make the story move. I really thought that they went a long way to say very little at times.

But fuck all, the Red Wedding was incredible. So was most of the acting. Overall this season was a B+, but sometimes dragged into a C- area.

And now… just 42 weeks to next season.

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I agree. I don't understand the complaints. we don't hear anything about catelyn's body for several chapters after the rw, and LS is revealed in the epilogue. in the book we're allowed to believe she's completely dead for half the book. if they're doing it right we don't see LS until the last episode of season 4.

I also agree. I think having Lady Stoneheart show up already is too soon. First, it kind of detracts from the Red Wedding, in that after only one episode we would already find out that Catelyn has been brought back. That reveal needs more time, as the impact of the Red Wedding is still being felt. Second, if they did reveal it, what exactly are they going ot have Catelyn do next season? There's really nothing.

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Next season is going to be fucking amazing.

Now I've gotta wait 3 months until football. :dunce:

I really wonder if that wasn't the plan all along. Build up to the Red Wedding, wait for mass hysteria, ask HBO to double the budget over the summer.

Look at how D&D have ended the season: a huge Ironborn battle brewing, possible encounters with White Walkers, the battle for the Wall has entirely been left out, direwolves kept to a minimum, Coldhands and his elk left out...

I really think they're banking on a larger budget to play with next year.

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LOL

I totally read a "This girl done lost her mind..." look on Jorah's face

Im glad that Im not the only one that believes that the final scene was kind of a Red herring: some viewrs said well Danny is the savior, but iby the way she is lifted, her expression and Jorah's IMHO they are starting to show her fall into the megalomaniac.

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