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[Book Spoilers] EP310 Discussion

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I was disappointed in the lack of a cliffhanger ending but I didn't find the ending to be "cheesy"

It wasnt that bad really. Clarke was hella wooden but alas, expecting her to be great is expecting too much. I, surprisingly, was ok with Dany looking good here. Its really the last moment she gets that she looks really good anyway. For me, it was like, "Oh alright. Let the baby have her bottle. fuck." But no Nymeria pulling Cat out of the Trident was a little disappointing. This episode was more like "Hey, a bunch of cool ass shit is gonna happen next season, yo!"

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The Stannis scene was kinda painful but I don't find his characterization on the TV show substantially different from the books. He definitely has this period after his defeat at the Blackwater where he basically does whatever Melisandre says. She very much caused him to drift away from the principles he holds so dear in both occasions.

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The unsullied I watched the show with said, "OMFG! I HAVE TO WAIT ANOTHER YEAR TO FIND OUT WHETHER JON SNOW IS ALIVE OR DEAD?"

That is the cliffhanger for non book readers, so mindful of what you post and say.

Also - now that they've done it the way they just did it

(re: Jon), they're going to have to handle what happens at the end of ADWD a little differently, perhaps?

:dunno:

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The ending was uncomfortable for all the reasons stated, but I think if you consider it with what is coming, it will look better in hindsight.

I personally believe the show is skipping Mereen entirely, and Dany will do all her Mereen stuff as the leader of Yunkai. If so then, the show is setting her up as the savior of these people, but really her dragon is about to eat some people, sickness, starvation, and a good portion of the rest of the continent will mobilize to unseat her.

So... if I am right and she will rule Yunkai instead of Mereen, the last scene really just sets up her arch of going from savior to not-so-great leader. Since the last book left off without really resolving that whole situation, it's hard to say whether her arch ends with complete failure or not, but we'll see.

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The high point for sure (among some others) was Hodor yelling Hodor into that tunnel. Lol.

And Sam going "I know all about Hodor too" and Hodor being all "Sup, brah. Hodor!" <3 Hodor kicks ass. I love how he ogled the dragonglass and was all "....hodor...!" And his echoing Hodor!

Moet, nah...my mum knew he wasnt dead. Sure, shes sharper than most unsullied, but its pretty clear hes gonna be fine.

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What pissed me off the most was how they handled Pyke. Why is Balon Still alive? And why is Asha super gung ho about sailing all the way around Westeros to save her brother? This is incredibly stupid and I hope it doesnt foreshadow horrible changes to the Iron Islands storyline. Yes its going to be condense big time for TV but its general outline needs to be kept intact.

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And Sam going "I know all about Hodor too" and Hodor being all "Sup, brah. Hodor!" <3 Hodor kicks ass. I love how he ogled the dragonglass and was all "....hodor...!" And his echoing Hodor!

Moet, nah...my mum knew he wasnt dead. Sure, shes sharper than most unsullied, but its pretty clear hes gonna be fine.

I want to give Hodor a mighty big hug. Oh you gentle giant you. :)

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The ending was super cheesy, especially as the freeing the slaves plot has been poorly explained / demonstrated on screen. I guess after the RW they want to leave viewers with something positive to end on, but in truth I think the final image wasn't up there with previous seasons. If we had then transitioned to Beric Dondarrion and the BwB coming across a corpse, passing on the kiss of fire and seeing LS open her cold eyes and let out a noiseless scream it would have been a really strong image to end on and finally give some purpose to the BwB this season. I fear we will either not get LS now, or that seeing her next season will feel too dragged out... viewers will have had best part of a year to get over the RW and losing Cat, and then boom she is back.

Generally though the episode was a good finale, using lots of small scenes that worked to get us up to speed on what everyone is upto. I really enjoyed the Roose/Frey scenes and transition to Theon/Ramsay, and later to Asha/Balon (although Balon looked too clean!). I liked Asha (or whatever her show name is) a lot this episode and thought the actress did a really good job here at doing a lot with very little dialouge. I particularly liked Arya and the Hound, I could pretty much watch them together for a whole season. Bran and his story was fab, and in combination with what Tyrion says to Tywin, works to hammer home is that the Freys have broken guestright. Sam/Gilly and Bran and later Aemon was all good, although I remember the passageway under the Nightfort being way cooler in the books with a door only Nights Watch can use. Jon/Ygritte scene worked for me although overall I feel way more for Ygritte than I do Jon -- not sure if it is because Rose Leslie just owns Yrgitte or in the books we only have Jon's POV, but in the show Jon comes across a bit wet and well... a complete git really!

I really, really like the TV versions of the King's Landing and Dragonstone cast, but I just didn't much like the scenes or writing for them in the episode. Tyrion/Sansa and Varys/Shae scenes are all far too lovey-dovey for me, and Sansa is coming across as way way way too trusting of Tyrion; looking forward to seeing big changes in her direction next year. The small council meeting was good but the Tywin/Tyrion dialouge was overkill. I enjoy Cersei/Tyrion scenes, but this just felt like a rehash of scenes from previous seasons -- I would much rather have seen more reaction from Cersei when seeing Jamie. Talking of which, where did his horses and guard get to? As for Dragonstone -- Melisandre is chilling as ever, Shireen/Davos was cute, but I didn't particularly like the Gendry/Davos scenes --- a lot more drama could of been put into these. Also I can't even remember when Davos was named hand and why he is suddenly using that title. And seriously, Gendry who has never rowed before has to get from Dragonstone to KL... is Gendry going to become Patchface!?!!

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What pissed me off the most was how they handled Pyke. Why is Balon Still alive? And why is Asha super gung ho about sailing all the way around Westeros to save her brother? This is incredibly stupid and I hope it doesnt foreshadow horrible changes to the Iron Islands storyline. Yes its going to be condense big time for TV but its general outline needs to be kept intact.

I think it means Asha is not going to be a contender at the Kingsmoot.

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First of all, I wish everyone would cool it over the non-appearance of Lady Stoneheart in this episode. That happens at the END of "Storm of Swords," and we haven't got even close to that yet. It would have been too soon anyway - barely enough time has passed for her body to have floated down the river.

And yeah, the final 'crowd serfing*' scene with Dany at the end was atrocious. It reminded me of one of those over-the-top dance numbers from a post war Hollywood musical. (* - see what I did there?) ;)

But - and I haven't read all the comments yet - am I the first one to mention the BIG REVEAL at the wall? It's HUGE!!!

Jojen tells Sam right out, "The Black Watch can't stop the White Walkers. All the armies of men can't stop them," and it is HEAVILY implied that it will be BRAN to conquer the Others.

Now the question is, is this something that is in sync with D & D's 'special knowledge' of the books' outcome, or is it yet another point where the two media stories diverge?

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I think it means Asha is not going to be a contender at the Kingsmoot.

I think they're going to take Reek's story from ADWD and move it into next season, or at least part of his story from ADWD. Same goes for Asha. Obviously it will require some changes from the story, but it makes sense to me; they can't possibly have another entire season where Theon does nothing but get tortured. With this, both he, Ramsay, and Roose will have something to do next season, most of it involving rooting out the Ironborn out of the North. THey may even establish some Northern houses like the Manderlys.

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Regarding the episode - I liked it.

Yes, I admit to getting caught up in wanting LS, and I regret that. Usually I don't do that, and I let the show be the show, but I did get my hopes up, especially because I love Michelle and show Cat so much. I can't wait until she comes back.

I actually loved most of it. LOVED the first 30 min. Some of the best scenes of the season.

  • Loved Hodor's reaction when Sam recognized him just from what Jon had told him, that everyone knows Hodor, and that he's that important. That was sublime.
  • Loved Sam's face when Bran said they were going north of The Wall.
  • Loved the Arya scene! OMG The Hound and Arya road show is AWESOME, and I hope they make that last all of next season.
  • Loved the early scene with Tyrion and Sansa being friends, only to have her trapped in her KL Cage, in mourning for her family only minutes later.
  • The Small Council scene was brilliant, especially Tywin's speech to Tyrion regarding the day he was born. HFS! Charles Dance is a MASTER, and also needs an emmy nom.
  • I love that almost everyone has a motive to kill Joffrey.
  • The Shea/Varys scene was a setup for next season, which will come as a shock to unsullied.
  • The Davos/Gendry scene was a setup for Gendry coming with Davos to escape, otherwise it wouldn't have been believable to non book readers.
  • The Cersei/Tyrion scene was giving everyone a reason to kill Joffrey. It made it clear that Cersei's baby Joffrey, and the freak he has grown into, are two different people, (even though she will snap when he really dies.)

And I LOVED Myhsa! WOW.

And Sam going "I know all about Hodor too" and Hodor being all "Sup, brah. Hodor!" <3 Hodor kicks ass. I love how he ogled the dragonglass and was all "....hodor...!" And his echoing Hodor!

Moet, nah...my mum knew he wasnt dead. Sure, shes sharper than most unsullied, but its pretty clear hes gonna be fine.

Just because your Mum had that instinct, don't assume everyone will. My unsullied are überclever, and see plots forming miles in advance, so I was really shocked when they said they thought there was a chance Jon could be dead. They MADE me tell them, and they usually don't do that - but they REALLY LOVE JON SNOW.

What pissed me off the most was how they handled Pyke. Why is Balon Still alive? And why is Asha super gung ho about sailing all the way around Westeros to save her brother? This is incredibly stupid and I hope it doesnt foreshadow horrible changes to the Iron Islands storyline. Yes its going to be condense big time for TV but its general outline needs to be kept intact.

I don't think she's going to get far before getting the news of Balon's death and turning back for home. The scene was there to set up the Ironborn becoming more important next season.

Edited by Moët

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I spent a bunch of time bitching about how much Show Stannis sucks, so let me just say the Walder Frey and Roose Bolton scene was a good reminder of the advantages of not having the book's PoV structure. The opening scene with the butchering of the northern army and Robb Stark with the direwolf head was great, too.

And I was overjoyed that Guest Right was finally acknowledged. I was hoping for it before RW, but after works just fine, as long as its there.

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Not a bad episode, and unlike a lot of people (for some reason) who wanted to see Lady Stoneheart this early, I'm glad she wasn't in it. Only things I disliked are:

-Still no Coldhands, and no magic gate. When I saw them leaving the Nightfort through the doorway I nerdraged a little.

-Like a lot of others, that Stannis scene. They butchered his character a little too hard.

-Too much Theon. I'm not that upset anymore that they showed him being totured and ruined the surprise of it, but they waste wayyy too much airtime that could be better spent elsewhere.

Other than that, I thought it wasn't too bad, and unlike a lot of people, I LOVED the Dany scene. Mainly because the expressions on their faces, and the forshadowing and symbolism the scene seemed to have (Heil Mhysa!) Will she be a dictator leader after all?

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I thought it made sense for Balon to still be alive.

If they have a 'previously on GoT' opening for S04E01, I could imagine it would end with Stannis throwing the leeches in the fire and saying the names. And perhaps the first scene could be him falling off the bridge or whatever - to remind the unsullied that Melisandre's propechy/witchcraft is still a factor.

And then of course, the PW could be in E02 (certainly no later than E03 and no earlier than the final scene of E01).

Edited by The Knight of Flours

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  • he Davos/Gendry scene was a setup for Gendry coming with Davos to escape, otherwise it wouldn't have been believable to non book readers.son.

My stream was pretty bad and I missed a few scenes that I watch later with more time, but there wasn't a scene of Gendry in a boat ready to leave with Davos? I remember that scene was "leaked" in one of the promo shoots.

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What I liked:

  • Arya and Tyrion road trip
  • Davos and Gendry interaction (Liam is just perfect as Davos)
  • Tywin dismissing Joffrey, again
  • Roose Bolton and Walder Frey exchange
  • Sansa being a bit joyful, before descending (again) into post-RW sadness
  • Maester Aemon it's back into the show :)

What I didn't like:

  • Asha/Yara going to save Theon. With 50 men!!!
  • no (hint of) LS
  • the ending (seemed a little bit cliche)
  • Shae getting too much screen time (all this season)

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It's funny how blatantly problematic some of the book elements are when they play out on screen, namely the "mob of grateful brown people worship the nice white lady who saved them." On the page, it's one thing, but on the show, it's a whole other level of racist overtones. Of course, in ADWD, I think GRRM tries to subvert the racist myth of the white liberator saving the helpless, oppressed brown people from themselves, by showing how Dany has created more problems than she's solved in sweeping in to destroy the foundation of the local economy without any sort of long-term plan to stabilize things and free a ton of slaves without giving adequate thought to their long-term care, but that's a long way off, and the image we leave the show on for Season 3 is a scene with an adoring crowd of brown people all but falling at the feet of their white, blonde messiah.

Did anyone catch this (non-book) line from Sansa, about Arya?

"My sister used to do that when she was angry with me. And she was always angry with me."

Bawwwwwwww babies!

Edited by Newstar

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