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[Book Spoilers] EP310 Discussion

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It matters because Jaime and Brienne fully intended to fulfill the bargain with Catelyn, and the reason they couldn't is because Sansa had disappeared moments before they reached KL.

Now they are there with Sansa, and their failure makes them less honorable than they were in the books.

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It's funny how blatantly problematic some of the book elements are when they play out on screen, namely the "mob of grateful brown people worship the nice white lady who saved them." On the page, it's one thing, but on the show, it's a whole other level of racist overtones. Of course, in ADWD, I think GRRM tries to subvert the racist myth of the white liberator saving the helpless, oppressed brown people from themselves, by showing how Dany has created more problems than she's solved in sweeping in to destroy the foundation of the local economy without any sort of long-term plan to stabilize things and free a ton of slaves without giving adequate thought to their long-term care, but that's a long way off, and the image we leave the show on for Season 3 is a scene with an adoring crowd of brown people all but falling at the feet of their white, blonde messiah.

I've always found Dant's arc in Slaver's Bay extremely problematic in the books - It's one of the reasons I hate reading her. The depiction in the show was equally offensive. If the horrid masters are also cast as poc, as they are in the books, it will look even worse.

Just caught a comment a few pages back regarding "Why the Shae/Varys scene?"

It's setting up her break/betrayal of Tyrion. She thinks Tyrion sent Varys with the diamonds, not that he could possibly be that rich or come of his own free will.

Agreed.

Personally, I loved the Varys/Shae scene. I thought it was very well done.

Edited by Sun

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I imagine they will play it as Jamie struggling with the fact that he already took one wife from his brother; he can't take another even if he promised...

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I remember but this time it was intentional and they used the trick she used at harrenhall dropping the coin.

BtW I'm on my iPad too don't you have the Lil quote and edit buttons on the bottom of each post?

Now I do. I found the "go to the (almost) full version button. :D

Edited by Moët

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Maybe it doesn't matter for you. Don't speak in others name.

I was talking in terms of the plot as was quite clearly stated in my post.

It matters because Jaime and Brienne fully intended to fulfill the bargain with Catelyn, and the reason they couldn't is because Sansa had disappeared moments before they reached KL.

Don't know if you noticed but Catelyn along with her entire family are all dead, missing or captured at this point. Who was Jaime going to return her to Lysa (a psychopath) ? Or perhaps Roose Bolton (also a psychopath)? The north belongs to the Boltons and the Riverlands to the Freys/Baelish.

Edited by Westeros only has one wall

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I imagine they will play it as Jamie struggling with the fact that he already took one wife from his brother; he can't take another even if he promised...

It will work itself out very quickly because Sansa will still disappear early next season.

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I was talking in terms of the plot as was quite clearly stated in my post. Honestly some people want a carbon copy of the books.

After this season, I've come to believe that you've captured the general attitude of the show runners: what are the important plot points? How can we build to them?

The problem with this approach is that they've come to neglect consistent and compelling characterization. I can understand why this is so tempting (there are *a lot* of characters)... but in the end it's the characters that make us *care* about the plot.

So it's not just people wishing they'd be true to the books; there's a real deficiency here.

It matters because Jaime and Brienne fully intended to fulfill the bargain with Catelyn, and the reason they couldn't is because Sansa had disappeared moments before they reached KL.

Now they are there with Sansa, and their failure makes them less honorable than they were in the books.

:agree: Of course, I'm not sure how true Jaime intended to be towards his vows at first, but this is a major change for them. For Brienne in particular, Sansa is essentially this goal of her quest.

Of course a lot of the tension and threat has been removed from Sansa's storyline this season (she's got Shae, TV!Tyrion is practically one of those idealized true knights, and the Tyrell's are still hanging out with her) so who knows...

I imagine they will play it as Jamie struggling with the fact that he already took one wife from his brother; he can't take another even if he promised...

I think you are seriously overestimating how much care the show will put into character motivation.

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Part of the problem with Stannis characterization is how rushed everything is. Show can´t bring itself to killing Balon let alone Joffrey, but it needs letter for the finale, so Stannis is convinced after only one dead king. It´s also jarring how purpose of Mel´s sacrifice wasn´t really much explained...

All in all, while the episode was not very eventful, I actually like it most of all season finales, becouse it still carried magnitude of the previous story. It was nice to have a sequence of Rat King - Walder and Roose - Ramsey. Although, once again he could say his name himself.

Next season has a lot of responsibility not to screw up...

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I can't believe they left the Craster's Keep coup unresolved. Most of the viewers have no idea what happened there. How many Night's Watch brothers made it out of there alive and what happened to the killers?

I know Sam told Aemon what happened because even Stannis now knows that the lord commander is dead, but that doesn't explain what happened to the other members of the Watch. They had 6 episodes to wrap things up... At least we got to watch Shae every other episode :bang:

Edited by Tumblepuff

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Not sure what to say about this one really. As an episode on it's own it was decent. As a season finale it was pretty weak. Don't want to nitpick here too much, but I was generally disappointed with this as the Season 3 wrap up. A shame as this season was really quite good overall.

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There were some very strong scenes in the episode. Robb with Grey Wind's head choked me up more than the Red Wedding to be honest. And Joffrey is just amazing as the brat you love to hate - the way he emotes such genuine pleasure at the thought of others' suffering would have been lost without a better actor.

The only scenes that fell flat for me were Jon and Ygritte, some of Bran's and Dany's final scene. It just felt at odds with the tone of the season to end on a "happy" note. That and the fact I thought Jar Jar Binks was about to address the khaleesi with the constant "mesas" :) "mesa thinks you should get your arse back to Westeros"

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Not sure what to say about this one really. As an episode on it's own it was decent. As a season finale it was pretty weak. Don't want to nitpick here too much, but I was generally disappointed with this as the Season 3 wrap up. A shame as this season was really quite good overall.

Ya I totally get what you mean, but the real season finale for GOT in terms of how powerful of a presence the episode brings, is always the 9th episode of the season. Season 1 Ep9 Ned Stark gets his head chopped off, season 2 EP9 the Battle of Blackwater Bay, and season 3 Ep9 the RW. The 1st episode of the season is usually just to show us where the characters are to begin the season, the 9th episode has the "big moment" of the season, and the 10th and last episode basically just shows where the characters ended up to finish the season. So I wasn't really expecting much out of this final episode to begin with....Although I will say I was expecting a bigger ending to the season than we actually got. I mean in Season 1 we got Dany hatching the dragon eggs, Season 2 we got Sam running into the army of undead, yet in season 3 all we got was Dany crowd surfing? Definitely a little weak compared to what we got at the end of the first two seasons......

Edited by Jon Icefyre

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The Asha scene bothered me because she never defies her father. And she certainly isnt stupid enough to go against the entire North with just 50 men.

Sansa and Tyrion having a good time is just awful.

I wished they showed Stoneheart. I understand that it would make her death less dramatic, so Im hoping that she first appears in season 4 killing Freys.

Stannis, laughing. I just cant get over that.

Kits acting in his scene with Ygritte disappointed me.

And I actually liked the Dany scene. Not as an episode ender though.

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Ya I totally get what you mean, but the real season finale for GOT in terms of how powerful of a presence the episode brings, is always the 9th episode of the season. Season 1 Ep9 Ned Stark gets his head chopped off, season 2 EP9 the Battle of Blackwater Bay, and season 3 Ep9 the RW. The 1st episode of the season is usually just to show us where the characters are to begin the season, the 9th episode has the "big moment" of the season, and the 10th and last episode basically just shows where the characters ended up to finish the season. So I wasn't really expecting much out of this final episode to begin with....Although I will say I was expecting a bigger ending to the season than we actually got. I mean in Season 1 we got Dany hatching the dragon eggs, Season 2 we got Sam running into the army of undead, yet in season 3 all we got was Dany crowd surfing? Definitely a little weak compared to what we got at the end of the first two seasons......

I think it's harder to have a good cliffhanger when you are only halfway through the book. in the first two season you could go by what the book did, or in season 2, include the very beginning of the 3rd book.

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My biggest issue with this episode is the the complete elimination of the cool looking Black Gate. One of the best parts of ASOS for me was the old weirwood at the gate, the need to recite the NW's vows. Just the whole magical aspect of it. And with that not there, kind of takes away a really good scene from ASOS. And it was taken away for no particular reason! very disappointing.

Other problems would be the Tyrion-Cersei scene. What the hell was happening there? Sibling bonding? Absolute rubbish. White washing Tyrion is one thing, but changing the tone of important relationships from the book to the show is uncalled for.

While i didnt like the fact that Sam seemed a more brave character in the show than in the books (in this episode atleast), and i definitely didn't like the fact that he reaches Castle Black before Jon (which was done just for making Jon's entry cheesy), but i guess that would fall under nitpicking, so i'd stop.

Jon's entry on the other hand, utter rubbish. Too cheesy, too much drama, not real at all, and not something GRRM would particularly approve of i'm sure. Don't even get me started on the Jon-Ygritte scene.

Sansa's character is completely ruined. From the looks of things, she seemed to be pretty happy married to Tyrion, until RW news hit KL with a bang.

I've never liked the fact that they've portrayed Shae as a good character (again, not something GRRM would be happy with i'd bet), but considering the decisions they'd taken, the Shae-Varys scene was pretty good, if nothing else but to build up to the betrayal next season.

I'm not even going to get into the Asha (Yara, or whatever name you want to give her) dramatisation, where she selflessly decides to go to the dreadfort to save her captured elder brother. Oh so touching wasn't it? *Sarcasm*

The things i liked, a short list

Roose Bolton! Not like the books, but effective enough i'd say! And the scene with Walder Frey, i can actually picture it happening in the books as well.

Dany's mhysa scene, while slightly over the top on the drama, i guess is needed as a good season finisher. Not as effective as S1 or S2 endings though definitely. It was decently done though (and Dany looking ravishingly hot makes up for a lot of the flaws!)

I know people are quite pissed about Stannis smiling, but i agree with that, the whole scene with Davos and Mel, and Davos and Gendry in the dungeon was pretty good. And i do love Shireen.

Charles Dance you beauty. Best character adaptation from the books in my opinion (after Syrio perhaps?)

Overall, horrible episode, and end to a overall disappointing season personally, except for a few bits here and there, like the sack of astapor, RW (could have been much worse), Brienne and the bear and few more.

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I think it's harder to have a good cliffhanger when you are only halfway through the book. in the first two season you could go by what the book did, or in season 2, include the very beginning of the 3rd book.

Oh I agree with you, but I mean they could have done something at least a little better or rather more exciting than ending the season with Dany crowd surfing. Especially knowing that they spoiled the viewers with amazing endings to the first two season, therefore intentionally or unintentionally creating in itself a certain level of expectation for they way they end GOT seasons, ya know.

Edited by Jon Icefyre

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:agree: Of course, I'm not sure how true Jaime intended to be towards his vows at first, but this is a major change for them. For Brienne in particular, Sansa is essentially this goal of her quest.

Of course a lot of the tension and threat has been removed from Sansa's storyline this season (she's got Shae, TV!Tyrion is practically one of those idealized true knights, and the Tyrell's are still hanging out with her) so who knows...

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Jaime has no honor and I never believed finding Sansa and Arya in Fest/Dance would be lead to him fulfilling his vow. Remember his terms to Edmure Tully. He is still destroying the Starks/Tullys and would have 'returned' the Stark girls to Casterly Rock to be imprisoned with their uncle, or perhaps even sending Arya to Ramsey Bolton, putting aside the practicalities of controlling a faceless man for a moment, which I doubt a hapless cripple like Jaime could do. That would have been his loophole because Jaime looks for loopholes, he doesn't embrace the true valor and honor of a knight. Thus, Kingslayer, his well earned nickname. He's more concerned with getting back to his happy place with Cercei from the looks of this episode anyway.

Here, on the show, Sansa is now a Lannister, so she doesn't need returning. That's Jaime's loophole.

Varys tried to play nice with Shae, so I think he'll play hard ball and my theory of her becoming fake Arya could be brought about by him in season4.

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After this season, I've come to believe that you've captured the general attitude of the show runners: what are the important plot points? How can we build to them?

The problem with this approach is that they've come to neglect consistent and compelling characterization. I can understand why this is so tempting (there are *a lot* of characters)... but in the end it's the characters that make us *care* about the plot.

So it's not just people wishing they'd be true to the books; there's a real deficiency here.

:agree: Of course, I'm not sure how true Jaime intended to be towards his vows at first, but this is a major change for them. For Brienne in particular, Sansa is essentially this goal of her quest.

Of course a lot of the tension and threat has been removed from Sansa's storyline this season (she's got Shae, TV!Tyrion is practically one of those idealized true knights, and the Tyrell's are still hanging out with her) so who knows...

I think you are seriously overestimating how much care the show will put into character motivation.

i think someone else pointed this out but - where's she gonna go? I suspect they'll change it to her choosing to stay or some such until the purple wedding, there's no immediate reason to get her out of there...and then, petyr takes her before brienne can.

Edited by cas

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