(Book Spoilers) Theon and the reveal

[Dove]

I'm really not liking that either, i'm sure others already thought this when reading and I don't look down on anyone's interpretation but I really don't like it at all. I think it's so much scarier and horrific and creepy for there to just be absolutely no sexual element considering some of the things Ramsay does. It's much more frightening.

I can understand where the Joker-ish interpretation comes from, Ramsay is probably the closest to Chaotic Evil and even then, that system is far too simplistic for ASOIAF.

However, I always felt he was more sinister, much more sinister. I was a little champion for Iwan to begin with LOL, but I'm not so sure now.

He's bringing the Ramsay, like I said, but is it the interpretation of Ramsay that you agree with, perhaps not. I am still deciding.

From a page ago but basically this sums up my thoughts really well. It's a unique interpretation that could turn out better than the book in the long run, but for what we've been given so far I'm just not feeling it I guess? IDK, obviously being Ramsay's prisoner is never a good place to be but outside of that, dude's just not intimidating. It's not because Iwan is too cute or anything like some have said - I think it's just because they haven't really shown him doing anything outside of him hosting the Ramsay Snow Comedy Hour and torturing a helpless guy, except the one "rescue" scene in the beginning of the season.

Basically he comes off as Joffrey 2.0 to me, like I mentioned, instead of really being his own (horrible, scary even if you aren't a prisoner, depraved) kind of guy. There's still plenty of time to show him doing his thing, though.

Also what I hope they're getting at with the weird sexual elements and that interview is that Ramsay is pretty much an asexual sort of dude except for that really strong undercurrent of sexual sadism that runs through all of his cruel, violent actions. He doesn't have an "attraction" to Theon or those girls, he just really fuckin' loves causing pain, mental and physical (and Theon is everything he hates+everything he wants to be). If they make it any more than that it could potentially be sort of blech.

I have to add how thoroughly amazing Roose is though, I think I actually died at "forever young." I am literally a ghost sitting here typing this post right now

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

They just need to show Ramsay actually getting mad. So far he hasn't really got angry which was the scariest part of book Ramsay, that if he was having a bad day he was going to do something fucked up.

[Gendels Children]

I don't know if its just from other people spoiling it (or maybe from the hints being really quite obvious) but most of my non-reading friends either new who "boi" was, or weren't surprised at all... a little anticlimactic for me when I spoke to them about it, but I guess I didn't expect too much more, non of them know enough about the Boltons to care about them too much, but that is quickly changing hehehehehehehe

[Jamie Lannister]

Ramsay in the books was always a more hands-on and intelligent Joffrey though. Joff was always a morbid kid, but also a cowardly one; he shied away from doing his own dirty work. He had his guards beat his prisoners and rip out the tongues of people whose opinions he deemed impudent.

Ramsay's the same... but he'll smash your face in, flay your skin, and rip out your tongue himself.

Really, they're more similar than they're given credit for. Ramsay's the type of monster Joff would have become had he lived to young adulthood.

[The Old Gods Had Known Him]

Hello all. This is my first post, so why not about my fave character from the books, Theon (fave character in terms of fave chapters to read).

Really disappointed with how the whole Reek reveal was done. Should have started it way earlier. Like around about the time he woke him up with the horn and denied him the water. He should have walked right up to his face and been all like, "Would you like some water, prince Theon? Are you thirsty?" Then he should have recoiled and been like, "Ugh, you stink. You fucking reek. You're just a stinking piece of Ironborn shit. Or are you? You said Ned Stark was like a father to you. Are you a Stark? Are you a Greyjoy? Who are you? ANSWER ME!" Then Theon would have been all like, "I'm Theon Greyjoy, heir to the Iron Islands". Then Ramsay shoulda got really angry, punched him in the face and been all like, "NO, you're not. You're a nobody. Nobody cares about you. Not your sister. Not your half-father. Not the Ironborn who betrayed you. I'm the only one who cares about you, even though you reek. That's it. That's who you are. You're Reek, it rhymes with weak. From this point on your name is Reek."

"No, my name is Theon Greyjoy".

BOOM! Teeth breaking bunch in the face. "WHO ARE YOU?".

End of scene for that week. Returns a week later for more punches in the face and a bit of whipping, along with lines such as, "You're not a man, Reek, not a real man anyway. That person who used to bed lots of women is gone. You are REEK!"

So Theon keeps up the resistance up until about episode 9 when Ramsay is so pissed off that he hasn't submitted to his Reekness yet, that he decides to do the unthinkable and cut of his Kraken. Instead of that nonsense with the brazzers, he gets right up in his face and looks in his eyes as he does the awful deed. Theon faints from the horrendous levels of pain he is going through. So in episode 10, a destroyed and broken man, he finally submits to being Reek. I'd keep all the Ramsay stuff with the sausage etc, and the message to Balon was great as well.

Anyway, that's just how I personally would have liked to see that shit go down. Even though we all know lots of stuff went before episode 10, it still looked like the guy took 2 punches and became Reek far too easily. The Reekness should have been introduced earlier.

Hereth ends my first post. First of many perchance.

[Versiroth]

"Anyway, that's just how I personally would have liked to see that shit go down. Even though we all know lots of stuff went before episode 10, it still looked like the guy took 2 punches and became Reek far too easily."

Two punches, several beatings, a flayed finger or two, being mentally broken and a castration for good measure.... yep... he definitely gave up too quickly. BTW, you'll fit in well with this board... Everyone basically hates everything.

[RedChick]

From a page ago but basically this sums up my thoughts really well. It's a unique interpretation that could turn out better than the book in the long run, but for what we've been given so far I'm just not feeling it I guess? IDK, obviously being Ramsay's prisoner is never a good place to be but outside of that, dude's just not intimidating. It's not because Iwan is too cute or anything like some have said - I think it's just because they haven't really shown him doing anything outside of him hosting the Ramsay Snow Comedy Hour and torturing a helpless guy, except the one "rescue" scene in the beginning of the season.

Basically he comes off as Joffrey 2.0 to me, like I mentioned, instead of really being his own (horrible, scary even if you aren't a prisoner, depraved) kind of guy. There's still plenty of time to show him doing his thing, though.

Completely agree with this. The problem that I have with show Ramsay is that he's basically another Joffrey. As of yet, I don't find Ramsay to be scary or menacing at all. Like someone stated earlier, the letter to the Greyjoys was by far the scariest thing to come from show Ramsay IMO. The torture scenes were off for me too. Some of the scenes looked like they could've came straight out of Monty Python (the scene with Theon and the 2 girls reminded of Castle Anthrax from the Holy Grail movie).

IDK My overall assessment; Theon/Ramsay on the show - entertaining? Yes. But frightening? No.

[PhoenixFlame]

I fully expect we'll see flipping angry Ramsay soon enough. You can't give every facet of a multi-season character in just one long situation. He gets joy out of torturing people so it fits he's sardonic. When he gets legitimately pissed is when I think the EEP! factor will ratchet up. Eh, I don't really get "scared" of villains, usually because I enjoy a good show of villainy too much, but I love that moment in a show/film/play when you can see a character's fury mounting and you're just like "holy shit what's he/she gonna dooooo?" (like "Am I not merciful?!" in Gladiator -- not a scary villain, but so unhinged he was all over the place)

Tensions will mount when Roose gets back and starts reasserting he is the Lord of the Dreadfort.

Oh oh and can I say how well-cast they were in terms of family resemblance? They have a lot of similar expressions;

...and the other picture that made my '90s-kid day, Roosebumps.

[SeanF]

Really? For some reason I don't remember that at all. Except for the whole get Jeyne wet thing, I didn't remember anything sexual about it. Guess I will have to reread those chapter in ADWD again.

My impression from the book was that Ramsay had sexually assaulted Theon during the course of his imprisonment.

[Cas Stark]

Well, I thought that Joacquin Phoenix was scary in Gladiator, not scary like Texas Chain Saw scary, but scary in that you feel that coiled tension in his character at all times...no matter what he was doing, which now that you mention it, is something like the energy I would want to see in Ramsey.

But, ya know, everyone has their opinion, I don't find his interpretation of the prankster whose pranks are all torture based to be one that moves me, and I don't know that he's going to all of a sudden go from this comedic evil guy all of a sudden to a rage filled evil guy later in the series.

[Morpheus]

We haven't seen a reason for him to be angry yet, we have only seen him in interactions with Theon and he is in complete control of that situation and enjoying himself.

I like the performance so far but the reveal was underwhelming. A lot of torture for an anticlimactic scene. I though the ending of the Winterfell storyline was weak last year and they definitely should have found a way to work Ramsay in at the end instead of leaving it as a dull "mystery".

It feels like they drew out this whole thing because they did not want it to reflect on Roose (despite the clues for observant non-readers) and raise too much suspicion about his character and motives before the Red Wedding. Roose himself was a creepy guy in the books as we saw through Arya's pov, here he had a wicked sense of humor but they gave very little away and the handling of Ramsay appears to have been a part of that.

The Reek name has less impact without having any history.

[Dove]

Actually Ramsay and Joffrey aren't that similar? They share sadism and some daddy issues (but who doesn't have those in this universe, lol) as character traits but that's about it. They just seem more similar than they are because the psychotics tend to leave a wee bit stronger of an impression than the other stuff. Even some things they do share like the entitement concerning their stations are seen/approached in an entirely different way.

Also yeah Versiroth has a big point in that Theon's been through quite a bit of hell already and for all he knows this is his future too so I wouldn't say he succumbed "easily" at all, it's just a matter of the re-naming not having all that much impact - it just maybe could have been more powerful if they'd introduced Reek as a name/Ramsay trying to get Theon to name himself that earlier. Not necessarily the history, because I get them not wanting to have Ramsay monologuing to a comatose Theon like "well you see I used to have this stinky friend...", which would probably be silly

[Sniraga]

I liked Theon's chapters a lot in ADWD, but this interpretation... not so much. I had no problems with the actors, even though Ramsay was somewhat different than I expected, but the endless torture scenes turned Theon's arc into an epitome of boredom. Every time Theon appeared on the screen, I pretty much thought instinctively 'not again'. What a waste.

Their final scene in S3 was rather good, I suppose, but it didn't salvage or "justify" the amount of time D&D gave to the storyline. I think the end result would've been much better if they had just shown at the beginning of the season that Ramsay had Theon and he was going to torture him and then nothing until this final scene with the broken Theon.

[Cas Stark]

It's a minor point, another illustration of how the show does things.

In the book the implication is that Theon was tortured more "before he learned his name" and thus that the breaking of his identity as Theon Greyjoy, heir to the iron islands, good looking ladies man, was the primary reason for Ramsey's torture. To take away this identity and replace it with one he created. This point is further cemented by the contrast between Theon's life of privilege and his handsomeness as well as how he treated "Reek" and with Ramsey's life as a not handsome bastard who grew up at the mill.

In the show, it's just a random thought that occurs to Ramsey in the moment and has no deeper meaning, and there is no sense that Theon attempted to maintain his identity despite the torture.

So, in terms of "what happens" its not a big deal, in terms of character motivation and development, of course, it is.

[Versiroth]

I liked Theon's chapters a lot in ADWD, but this interpretation... not so much. I had no problems with the actors, even though Ramsay was somewhat different than I expected, but the endless torture scenes turned Theon's arc into an epitome of boredom. Every time Theon appeared on the screen, I pretty much thought instinctively 'not again'. What a waste.

Their final scene in S3 was rather good, I suppose, but it didn't salvage or "justify" the amount of time D&D gave to the storyline. I think the end result would've been much better if they had just shown at the beginning of the season that Ramsay had Theon and he was going to torture him and then nothing until this final scene with the broken Theon.

Reek wouldn't be believable at all if they'd have done that. In the books, GRRM could get away with it thanks to Reek's inner monologue. Since the show can't do it that way, showing Ramsey breaking Theon was the only thing they could do. And personally, I love the Theon/Reek arc in the books and it would have been a shame to not know the severity of Theon's suffering in the show. later on, when Rook is utterly broken and little more than Ramsey's creature, there will be no questions as to why. And also, knowing what he went through will make him escaping with Jeyne that much better.

[Stone Cold Bastard]

In the books I remember Theon thinking that Ramsay was talking to him almost like a lover, I think its after Theon's success at Moat Cailin, it may be another time, but it's in there.

No you're right, it's after Theon's success at Moat Cailin, that Ramsay is literally all over Theon and in his face, like he's trying to seduce Theon.

I don't find Ramsay to be scary or menacing at all. Like someone stated earlier, the letter to the Greyjoys was by far the scariest thing to come from show Ramsay IMO.

Yep.

[kephv]

...and the other picture that made my '90s-kid day, Roosebumps.

Excellent. :laugh:

[The Killer Snark]

Brilliant. By the way, Cas Stark is right. By casting actors of equal sex appeal, they've taken away the implication in ASOIAF that part of Ramsay's ill-treatment of Theon is down to resentment of privilege and physical appearance. It's pretty blatant in the novels (Ramsay is basically in many ways a big sulky kid), and therefore I've argued this point before when voicing my disapproval of Iwan Rheon being casted. Now that I've seen how good he is (Ramsay is also a darkly witty prankster in the books), I still feel that they could actually give a reason at some point for his resentment apart from him being just a killer and torturer. Even Gregor murdered and gave pain to so many people, though he would have been a monster anyway, because he's constantly half-insane from migraine headaches. In my opinion, Ramsay, far from being asexually sadistic, knows what he looks like in the novels, resents it, and therefore it's part of the reason he targets women most of the time.

Ironic about the authentically Ramsay tone of the letter, considering it isn't in the books. It's substantially different, though similar in tone, from the one Arya receives at Deepwood Motte. The same weird poetry is there, though. To me, this is a further indication that the writing for the character is very good.

[Envie]

I always got the impression from the books that a great deal of Ramsay's sadistic motivation was sexual. Far more so than Joffrey's particular sadism was and obviously as someone said in an earlier reply, Joffrey likely could have become more sexually sadistic had he lived to adulthood.

I'm curious why some here felt Ramsay's portrayal was too sexual or that the sexual overtones were some sort of homoerotic spin. I didn't think it was overdone and the obvious sick humor with the sausage was definitely Joker style gruesome and brought some much needed (if gross) laughs to the tense situation. Ramsay was like that in the books, he often had quick witty comebacks and jokes that were sick and twisted.

[rymerster]

Apologies if someone else already posted this, but on Sky Atlantic in the UK they actually had a commercial for sausages broadcast immediately following the Greyjoys scene.