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[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa III


Mladen

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As soon as I saw the first Sansa/Tyrion scene, I said out loud, no lie, "Welp, the Sansa fans are going to have a field day on the boards tomorrow, because they're going to haaaaaaate this..."

*looks forward to another thirty pages of how Tyrion is whitewashed and Sansa is subverted*

While it's a big departure from the book, I was sort of okay with this, I thought they were trying to show that Sansa is attempting to make the best of her circumstances...as Marg counseled her to....but, as always, it falls apart in the end, just as she begins to relax a tiny, tiny little bit it turns out the Lannisters have engineered the brutal murder of the rest of her family.

Agreed. IMNSHO, I think that it wasn't a badly done scene. I do agree a bit with would-be detractors - it does feel somewhat out of place - but, yes, you can also look at it as Show!Sansa is more mature than Book!Sansa, and thus would be attempting to make nice with her husband prior to finding out about her family. I think it's actually a good contrast overall - you get a tiny fraction of "maybe they'll at least have a civil relationship" and then... one more devastation for Sansa.

I also think the second scene, where he heads in and she's just sitting there crying, was pretty marvelous. I think having that under-acted - it being about her shock, instead of some cheesy "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" kind of scene - makes the impact of it hit harder. I don't believe, like a couple people have already noted, that that scene was "all about Tyrion." As he was talking with his father - a scene that occurred in the books - it made sense to transition him in to attempting to talk to her about it. Note that he didn't stick around to try to console her. If that had happened, I would indeed have said that it was a Tyrion-focused scene. Instead, we get a nod to what their relationship *will* be like from here on out.

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This week's Sansa actually seemed to come out of that shell and be more assertive. The scene with Tyrion, where she's talking about getting even with those who laughed at him -- she actually had me convinced that she had a mind of her own. Rather than letting life continually just beat her down, she found at least a temporary ally, and was animated to a certain degree. The "shift" was funny because it was a reminder of her naivete, but still, I think the scene showed that she was not going to let life beat her. I actually liked her. And the final scene was just tragic. We'd just seen this girl pulling herself out of a mental rut, and then this horrible news comes in and just pushes her right back into a shell. I really, really liked it because it actually seemed realistic to me.

This. As always, well said, FLoW :)

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And the final scene was just tragic. We'd just seen this girl pulling herself out of a mental rut, and then this horrible news comes in and just pushes her right back into a shell. I really, really liked it because it actually seemed realistic to me.

this! in fact, i would say having her laugh in the last scene was needed to make her final scene so poignant.

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While it's a big departure from the book, I was sort of okay with this, I thought they were trying to show that Sansa is attempting to make the best of her circumstances...as Marg counseled her to....but, as always, it falls apart in the end, just as she begins to relax a tiny, tiny little bit it turns out the Lannisters have engineered the brutal murder of the rest of her family.

Perhaps it worked from that perspective, but I can`t resist the feeling it was done in different direction. At the end you are right, no matter how close they get, there is entire abyss between them.

well, since we don't know how things will end for this couple, we don't know how pointless it is to show them interacting in a friendly manner.

I think their relationship ended in a way... There were never a chance for the two of them.

There are some who'd say that a lot of readers are similarly infatuated with Sansa.

Touche :). But, in all honesty, you don`t have to be expert to see how they are making Tyrion much likeable than he truly is.

This week's Sansa actually seemed to come out of that shell and be more assertive. The scene with Tyrion, where she's talking about getting even with those who laughed at him -- she actually had me convinced that she had a mind of her own. Rather than letting life continually just beat her down, she found at least a temporary ally, and was animated to a certain degree. The "shift" was funny because it was a reminder of her naivete, but still, I think the scene showed that she was not going to let life beat her. I actually liked her. And the final scene was just tragic. We'd just seen this girl pulling herself out of a mental rut, and then this horrible news comes in and just pushes her right back into a shell. I really, really liked it because it actually seemed realistic to me.

Like we needed another example of her naivite. It`s repetative. And that`s the main problem of this season with half the characters. When you make a point once, you don`t need to make it second, third, and tenth time. We know Sansa has a dose of naivite in her. Did we really need another scene to show us that? Wasn`t inviting family to wedding and sex talk with Margaery enough? It`s like they are stuck with her and don`t know how to continue.As for the last scene, I know it`s canon, but since we got Arya expressing emotions through killing, I thought Sansa will too, through a line or two. It wouldn`t be any less realistic if she actually said something to Tyrion.

As soon as I saw the first Sansa/Tyrion scene, I said out loud, no lie, "Welp, the Sansa fans are going to have a field day on the boards tomorrow, because they're going to haaaaaaate this..."

*looks forward to another thirty pages of how Tyrion is whitewashed and Sansa is subverted*

It`s not about hating, it`s about disliking the scene plus admitting that writers truly don`t know what to do with her.

I also think the second scene, where he heads in and she's just sitting there crying, was pretty marvelous. I think having that under-acted - it being about her shock, instead of some cheesy "NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!" kind of scene - makes the impact of it hit harder. I don't believe, like a couple people have already noted, that that scene was "all about Tyrion."

I also wouldn`t like the cheesy NOOOO scene, but I would like if she also said something. The scene had its impact but it`s so under-toned. With Arya we have expression of her feelings through murder, with Sansa, we could have one simple line, and end it.

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So they pulled the same cheap and easy trick twice for Sansa this year: instead of seeing her receive bad news and react... we just get a quick shot of her in tears. Yes, it's poignant, but a good writer could have actually done a couple of reaction scenes that would have hit even harder (see GRRM's take on Sansa getting wedding news). I think Sophie has the skill to pull such a scene off; I'm not sure why they copped out on it.

Sansa's storyline this season has basically been put aside to showcase other characters: Tyrion, Shae, the Tyrells, even Littlefinger. You can tell because a lot of the conflict present in her narrative from the books is washed out for the show. Sansa, like the other Stark siblings, is supposed to be under almost constant pressure in a hostile environment; that's her story at this point: struggling as a mostly powerless prisoner with no support.... but now? It seems like a bit of a mess.

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I might be remembering wrong, but didn't the scene end with Tyrion looking at Sansa at the window?

It would have been a subtle but important difference if they had ended the scene instead with a close up of SANSA crying....to refocus the audience on her pain instead of 'oh, poor Tyrion, his asshole father has caused him more problems...which is to a degree how it played.

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That Sansa scene at the start was just awful. She is smiling, she is happy because who wouldn't when she's in the company of the awesome Saint Tyrion? The incessant whitewashing of Tyrion is ruining other characters too.

Then the joke in the end...they made her look like an idiot again. And it was a really terrible joke too.

Couldn't agree more.

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This week's Sansa actually seemed to come out of that shell and be more assertive. The scene with Tyrion, where she's talking about getting even with those who laughed at him -- she actually had me convinced that she had a mind of her own. Rather than letting life continually just beat her down, she found at least a temporary ally, and was animated to a certain degree. The "shift" was funny because it was a reminder of her naivete, but still, I think the scene showed that she was not going to let life beat her. I actually liked her. And the final scene was just tragic. We'd just seen this girl pulling herself out of a mental rut, and then this horrible news comes in and just pushes her right back into a shell. I really, really liked it because it actually seemed realistic to me.

I am laughing so hard right now.

I remember having an argument with you about how being able to be happy for a friggin dress , despite the fact that her father is death etc is about the exatc things I bolded in your reply. Or being happy about the tyrell arangment (despite knowing Wyllas is not a knight in shining armor).

But now that she is nice to tyrion and shows this same hope, naivete in regards to tyrion, it is suddenly strength? So this kind of behaviour is only strenth when it is directed towards tyrion? If she has hope towards different people it is "omg you are so stupid girl lik what", but the moment the same kind of thinking is oriented toward tyty you suddenly like her????

yeeeahhhhhh

I was waiting for your post to write omg how stupid she was that she though they can just idly chatting that she didn't think about what this means that they made her to a lannister. But of course since it is about tyty your white knight and siince she is nice to him you suddenly like the very same behavior you hated for her in different situations.

I kinda guessed you won't critises her the same way you did in the other threads, since again she was nice to Great Guy tyrion...

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Btw: I don't think that in the show it was that out of character. As I said in the other threads, Sansa does not let life beat her down (yet), so it makes sense that since in the show tyrion was nice she at least nicer to him at this point, and at least tries to make something good out of it, just like when she learnd it would be Wyllas she is marrying she hoped that they would work itz out. Not in a fairy tale way, but that they will grow to appreciate each other and mutually care about each other.

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I also wouldn`t like the cheesy NOOOO scene, but I would like if she also said something. The scene had its impact but it`s so under-toned. With Arya we have expression of her feelings through murder, with Sansa, we could have one simple line, and end it.

I think it would have been great if she had simply whispered to Tyrion something like "You all killed them all, and now I have been forced to become one of you." or something where it is shown how she hates all Lannisters and despises the idea of being one.

There are some who'd say that a lot of readers are similarly infatuated with Sansa.

And there are some who'd say that a lot of readers overly hate her and her fans, and thus get upset when those fans wish the character's story was more true the books.

Seeing how Mladen doesn't seem to be wanting them to change the book characters to make Sansa look better at the expense of Tyrion, but instead would rather they both actually be faithful adaptions of the characters.

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Well, I was disappointed with the first scene of Sansa in this episode, but when I saw the episode again I had time to consider what they made of Tyrion in the show, as a so likable and charming character that I could really picture the show Sansa on the scene, if you know what I mean. Also I get that they just gave a moment of Sansa being a bit more relaxed and kind of happy in that moment so they could bring her down again with the sad news of Robb and Cat.

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I might be remembering wrong, but didn't the scene end with Tyrion looking at Sansa at the window?

It would have been a subtle but important difference if they had ended the scene instead with a close up of SANSA crying....to refocus the audience on her pain instead of 'oh, poor Tyrion, his asshole father has caused him more problems...which is to a degree how it played.

Yeah, it ends with a long close up of him as he walks out of frame... then there's a split second refocusing on Sansa's facing away in the background... but most of that scene was spent with Tyrion.

Note that they also interrupted the RW/Sansa drama with yet more heavy-handed 'Tywin wishes Tyrion wasn't his son' dialogue. I think that also lessened the impact/made it more about Tyrion.

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Sansa's courtesy armor in the books, IIRC, comes after the RW, so I don't think Sansa trying to make the best of things is wrong or something. Even more, she clearly states she expects him to be cruel because he's a Lannister, causing Tyrion to answer he isn't Joffrey.

I think Sansa's game about revenge looks great on the script: twelve fourteen years old pampered girl and it links her back to her sister, who we've just seen. Throw it in the context of ASOIAF and performed by character who looks eighteen and it doesn't work as it looks like in paper.

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Sansa's courtesy armor in the books, IIRC, comes after the RW, so I don't think Sansa trying to make the best of things is wrong or something. Even more, she clearly states she expects him to be cruel because he's a Lannister, causing Tyrion to answer he isn't Joffrey.

Nah... she's using courtesy armor way back towards the end of AGOT/Season 1. Of course, her septa apparently taught her that courtesy was a lady's armor before the novels even began.

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Sansa's courtesy armor in the books, IIRC, comes after the RW, so I don't think Sansa trying to make the best of things is wrong or something. Even more, she clearly states she expects him to be cruel because he's a Lannister, causing Tyrion to answer he isn't Joffrey.

No, courtesy armor was there all throughout their marriage. Sansa was cold but courteois to Tyrion all throughout the marriage.

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I am laughing so hard right now.

Your humor threshhold must be pretty low.

I remember having an argument with you about how being able to be happy for a friggin dress , despite the fact that her father is death etc is about the exatc things I bolded in your reply....

Here's the difference -- book Sansa's reactions are generally internal, self-absorbed, and/or self-pitying. She's happy about her dress. She's happy about puppies and a barge. She's so happy about playing Jonquil. Book Sansa engages in escapism. And one of the problems the showrunners have in portraying her fairly is that so much of what she does in the books is based on her internal monologues or feelings.

But in this episode, show Sansa actually came out of her shell, had an interaction with someone else where she actually proposed some revenge against real world people. She wasn't passive, or just a bystander fronting a woe-begotten face.

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For me it's clear after this chapter.

This girl Sophie Turner plays is named Sansa and is Ned's daughter and shares a similar background to book Sansa, but it's not her. The same as for Shae, Tyrion and all characters. I mean... Joffrey is almost adorable in the books compared to tv-Joffrey!

The tv-series is great in so many levels, but the characters lack the depth they had in the books. Well, when they are not totally different people.

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Nah... she's using courtesy armor way back towards the end of AGOT/Season 1. Of course, her septa apparently taught her that courtesy was a lady's armor before the novels even began.

I meant regarding Tyrion. She certainly didn't use it, or at least much, while hanging around with the Tyrells or with her few interactions with non Lannister courtiers.
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Here's the difference -- book Sansa's reactions are generally internal, self-absorbed, and/or self-pitying. She's happy about her dress. She's happy about puppies and a barge. She's so happy about playing Jonquil. Book Sansa engages in escapism. And one of the problems the showrunners have in portraying her fairly is that so much of what she does in the books is based on her internal monologues or feelings.

But in this episode, show Sansa actually came out of her shell, had an interaction with someone else where she actually proposed some revenge against real world people. She wasn't passive, or just a bystander fronting a woe-begotten face.

There is no particular difference besides who she is engaging in escapisms with. Seeing how if you really want to be honest her whole Jonquil escapism was even more proactive then this garbage in how it was part of working with Dontos in readying her escape.

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