Jump to content

[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa III


Mladen

Recommended Posts

Here's the difference -- book Sansa's reactions are generally internal, self-absorbed, and/or self-pitying. She's happy about her dress. She's happy about puppies and a barge. She's so happy about playing Jonquil. Book Sansa engages in escapism. And one of the problems the showrunners have in portraying her fairly is that so much of what she does in the books is based on her internal monologues or feelings.

But in this episode, show Sansa actually came out of her shell, had an interaction with someone else where she actually proposed some revenge against real world people. She wasn't passive, or just a bystander fronting a woe-begotten face.

Wow... I completely disagree with your interpretation of Sansa.

I don't recall her being super excited about playing Jonquil. I think Dontos emphasizes that metaphor more that Sansa... and appears to be more excited by it too. Sansa's hardly selfish... she's one of the most empathetic characters in the books. She does fantasize about bad things happening to Joffrey especially. In season two, they showed this with some comments to Shae... which now seem like a relatively good way of showing what Sansa's thinking.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first scene with Tyrion was horrendous, but the scene of her crying was somehow even worse. Just like Cat, the show has completely silenced Sansa; her grief was used for Tyrion's characterisation, not her own.

agree, they needed to refocus the end of the scene on Sansa and her perspective, instead of leaving her as a remote object at the window.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I meant regarding Tyrion. She certainly didn't use it, or at least much, while hanging around with the Tyrells or with her few interactions with non Lannister courtiers.

Nope... she has it up with Tyrion even before they're married. She certainly doesn't trust him. She lets it up briefly with the Tyrells out of concern for Margaery and because they appear to be giving her an escape route... but even with them she isn't completely honest. I can't recall her ever letting it down around Lannister courtiers.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On veiwing I thought the first Sansa scene completely got the tone wrong, but then after seeing the second, I think the first scene actually served a purpose, and I can forgive the deviation from the books.

If i understand what the writers were going for, the first scene is to show us that Sansa doesn't hate Tyrion, and that seems true to some of her internal dialogue in the books, where she thinks about how kind he is compared to the rest of his family. It also serves to provide a contrast to her later scene after she's learned of the horrors of the Red wedding. Viewers need a scene where she's starting to cheers up a little, so that the impact of the Red wedding on her can really be felt. If you go from "miserable Sansa" to miserable Sansa" then her character seems even more one note than her tv portrayal usually is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You see how you can have a scene with Sam and Bran and both Sam and Bran fans are happy with it. Or Arya and the Hound share scenes and both their fans are happy with it. Why is it that almost never are Sansa fans happy with her scenes with Tyrion? It has to do with the show's pet, drawf-ned. That's just the way it is.

The show's treatment of Tyrion makes me hate him and I'm convinced he won't murder Shae.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Touche :). But, in all honesty, you don`t have to be expert to see how they are making Tyrion much likeable than he truly is.

Well, that all depends on how likeable you found Tyrion in the books, doesn't it? Adaptations always are going to result in the elimination/alteration of some scenes, and whether you think the elimination/alterations of those scenes matters is dependent upon how you viewed that character.

It`s not about hating, it`s about disliking the scene plus admitting that writers truly don`t know what to do with her.

Well, here's my theory:

I think GRRM fucked up a bit in writing Sansa. She wasn't intended to be as controversial/divisive a character as she turned out to be, and that reaction has surprised him a bit. Now, if it was just one or two people who disliked Sansa in the books, that's one thing. But it's not. She is perhaps the most controversial/hotly debated character in the entire series. And her being that disliked by some means that some scenes just don't work for a great many readers the way they were intended. People just dislike her rather than feeling sympathy. I personally felt that tension in reading her. I knew I was supposed to feel sympathetic towards her sometimes, but she usually just bugged the hell out of me.

So I think D&D tried to fix that a bit. Tyrion is more sympathetic, and Sansa is shown to treat him better for that. They still showed her escapist side, and naivete, but got rid of the Florian and Jonquil crap that made me want to throw the book through the wall.

And I think they ended up doing a great job bringing her full circle in this episode. Because first, they showed that she recognized Tyrion's kindness to her (which she recognized in the book as well), and responded by not being unkind to him. Her ability to draw the distinction between Joffrey and Cersei on the one hand, and Tyrion on the other, was to me a sign of maturity. And after all, he wasn't even in KL when her father was killed, so there was really no way she could believe him complicit in that.

But then, the RW happens. And they showed through Tyrion's comments to Twyin that it would be expected to have a horribly negative effect on her. Now, when Sansa has a negative reaction towards Tyrion, I think viewers are far more likely to be understanding towards that, which makes her a more appealing, more sympathetic character.

I understand that some of this may not sit as well with people who loved book Sansa, because they think the rest of us were just wrong about her. But my guess is that all this will make show Sansa less disliked than book Sansa, more sympathetic, and therefore someone viewers will root for, as they were intended to do all along.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There is no particular difference besides who she is engaging in escapisms with. Seeing how if you really want to be honest her whole Jonquil escapism was even more proactive then this garbage in how it was part of working with Dontos in readying her escape.

It is entirely possible for someone to plan an escape without picturing themselves a character in a fairy tale. If they did decide to reintroduce the whole Florian/Jonquil fantasy when her escape draws nearer, I'd expect the audience reaction to be overwhelmingly negative, which I don't think is how folks are supposed to feel.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I really don't think her usual emotionless courtesy would come off as hatred.

it doesn't in the books, but that's because we get to know what she's thinking. Television doesn't give us that luxury, so writers feel they have to be less subtle. I'm not saying the scene was perfect, they clearly over did how cheerful she was acting, but if we only ever get to see quiet, courteous, miserable Sansa, and never dreamy, romantic, resilient Sansa the people who don't read the books will have a pretty negative view of her.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it doesn't in the books, but that's because we get to know what she's thinking. Television doesn't give us that luxury, so writers feel they have to be less subtle. I'm not saying the scene was perfect, they clearly over did how cheerful she was acting, but if we only ever get to see quiet, courteous, miserable Sansa, and never dreamy, romantic, resilient Sansa the people who don't read the books will have a pretty negative view of her.

Have you seen Red Wedding reaction videos on youtube? Casual fans want Lannister/Bolton/Frey blood. There's so many moving parts in this series, Sansa is already an afterthought and even more so because her pov is removed for Tyrion's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It is entirely possible for someone to plan an escape without picturing themselves a character in a fairy tale. If they did decide to reintroduce the whole Florian/Jonquil fantasy when her escape draws nearer, I'd expect the audience reaction to be overwhelmingly negative, which I don't think is how folks are supposed to feel.

Dontos was the one who really wanted to play up the Florian/Jonquil fantasy, however that still doesn't counter the point of how you only oppose escapism when it is with Tyrion but if she imagines some type of happiness with someone else then you are angry with the character.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think the RW reaction was terribly done. They made it ALL about Tyrion. Tyrion being happy with his little carefree and flirty wife, then Tyrion getting the news about the RW, then Tyrion being sad because now his wife hates him.

What about Sansa???

Link to comment
Share on other sites

it doesn't in the books, but that's because we get to know what she's thinking. Television doesn't give us that luxury, so writers feel they have to be less subtle. I'm not saying the scene was perfect, they clearly over did how cheerful she was acting, but if we only ever get to see quiet, courteous, miserable Sansa, and never dreamy, romantic, resilient Sansa the people who don't read the books will have a pretty negative view of her.

People forgot that she hated Joffrey at some points last season. Her courtesy, even without the internal dialogue, doesn't read as hatred. Even with whitewashed TV-Tyrion, she should at least be uncomfortable with her situation. Instead they have Sansa happily reaching out to Tyrion (it would have been slightly less jarring if it had been Tyrion reaching out to Sansa).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have you seen Red Wedding reaction videos on youtube? Casual fans want Lannister/Bolton/Frey blood. There's so many moving parts in this series, Sansa is already an afterthought and even more so because her pov is removed for Tyrion's.

I don't see whay you're getting at. I'm talking about fan reactions to Sansa not fan reactions to the Red wedding.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You see how you can have a scene with Sam and Bran and both Sam and Bran fans are happy with it. Or Arya and the Hound share scenes and both their fans are happy with it. Why is it that almost never are Sansa fans happy with her scenes with Tyrion?

Here's the difference -- there are a lot of readers who really, really disliked Sansa in the books. Though you may believe those reactions are based on a misreading of the text, a lack of empathy/understanding, or just plain wrong, it is undeniable that a substantial negative interpretation exists. And many times, that negative interpretation is based on different opinions on the exact same scenes in the books. Even if it was possible to recreate all those book scenes perfectly on screen, you'd still end up with a character disliked by a great many viewers. The showrunners have apparently decided that reaction is not consistent with the way they think the character is meant to be understood, so they're changing some of the underlying scenes.

There is no corresponding huge gulf of disagreement over Sam and Bran, though book Sam annoyed the crap out of me for a long time. They've made him significantly less craven in the show, so I suppose if there were folks who enjoyed the more craven Sam, they might be pissed too.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't see whay you're getting at. I'm talking about fan reactions to Sansa not fan reactions to the Red wedding.

I'm saying I don't think casual fans would care if Sansa is a 'meanie' to drawf-ned or not. They are focused on revenge against the meanies who murdered the King of the North, his mother, wife and his unborn child.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dontos was the one who really wanted to play up the Florian/Jonquil fantasy, however that still doesn't counter the point of how you only oppose escapism when it is with Tyrion but if she imagines some type of happiness with someone else then you are angry with the character.

Because her joking with Tyrion was an outward, active interaction with another character that did not involve a hang-dog look. It involved talking about a practical joke, which is a real world interaction with another human being, and open comments about her sister. That Sansa was not feeling sorry for herself at that moment.

It's the difference between a normal interaction with another human being, versus introversion and Walter Mitty fantasies.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...