Jump to content

[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa III


Mladen

Recommended Posts

Yet they did a far more respectable job in season 2. Remember that dinner she had with Cersei, Tommen, and Myrcella? That look she gave herself in the mirror? The way her mask occasionally slipped under pressure?

Even without all that, they gave her an easy sounding board with Shae. They didn't need to have her apparently abandon her mask entirely.

Like I say, the scene went too far with her cheeriness, but they needed a contrast so that her reaction to the Red Wedding really hit home. They could have handled it better, but they also could have handled it a lot worse, and there have been plenty of bigger deviations from the books this season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I'm saying show Sansa's pov. That's it. The showrunners don't understand how the casuals feel because they approach the show from a South/Lannister point of view. They think their the heart of the show, but its really the Starks.

Even I was taken aback how popular King Robb turned out to be.

The only 'youtube reaction video' moment I can think of for Tyrion is when Red Viper loses to Lurch That Rides, and I'm telling you, the casuals will react, how is Tyrion going to get out of this, not oh man, he's done for.

It's hard to show Sansa's PoV without internal dialogue. She reacts to things like the Red Wedding by shutting herself away, and reinforing her her armour of courtesy. It's imposible for D&D to show us how she feels, as she doesn't really discuss her sadness with others. If she'd opened up to Tyrion in her moment of vulnrability that would have been a much bigger deviation from her book character. Weeping is about the best we're going to get.

Also, I'd just like to remind you that Tyrion is GRRM's favourite character too. It's not just the show runners that have a soft spot for him. He's pretty popular in my circle of friends as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

She has been put on the back burner this season. But her stuff was always going to be difficult for television to adapt.

I think I like the show Sansa better than I liked the book Sansa at this point.

Same here.

We got to see her funny, playful, lovable side in this episode. They are needed for her future arc.

Can't just have Sansa be distant to Tyrion from the start since this would make her appear unsympathetic (yes, this is because TV Tyrion is very likable).

By highlighting the initial amiable relationship, it will help viewers understand and sympathize with Sansa down the line when she becomes colder to Tyrion. This way people won't just blame Sansa for never trying.

As to her last scene, I actually love it. Not everything is best spoken. Cat's last scene from the previous episode is a prime example. I think it is the same with Sansa's scene. Her torment is clearly revealed through her face (and one can immediately tell she has been crying her heart's out), but by remaining silent, the viewers are left on their own to imagine the harrowing emotions behind her tears.

But even more importantly, I love Sansa's last scene because it reveals two very important aspects of Sansa: one, she is trying hard to be brave, despite her growing isolation, and two, family still remains a central pillar to Sansa. The amount of emotion that was revealed through her silent crying is just amazing.

On a side note, does anyone else feel that Tysha is being replaced by Shae?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That Sansa was not feeling sorry for herself at that moment.

1. first of all the whole reason why you critisesed her about before is that she was not feeling sorry for herself enogh and wasn't being miserable enough. By the way, dresses are practical, you wear them as well.

2. No one in the entire book is more selfpitying than tyrion. He is the champion in that regard.

I mean the guy was just sitting around feeling sorry for himself that a 12 year old girl doesn't want to sleep with him. Lets take out our tisses and cry out hearts out. That is obviously the biggest tragedy ever happened in the book.

Everyone isn't her enemy. The fact that she thinks they are is a mental prison of her own making.

Yet when she does communicate with others and ends up trusting them she is a fool. Like with Dontos and the tyrells right?

I am enjoying how you are trying to compeletly twist the story to tell why in the episode the scene is different than in the book being happy about the dress or thinking about making the best from the Wyllas wedding.

You see here she is "escaping" as well (I wouldn'T call it that, but everyone who is not a miserbale shit about the bad things that happen to them is according to you is escaping, so I will use it).

She doesn't think about how her in.laws are Joff, Tywin, Cersei. And she doesn't think about what it means for her family. I actually thought Sansa was rather stupid in that scene.

And this "escaping" burns her at the end of the episode when the news about the RW arrive and she has to face what is the family she was forced to marry into truly are. What her marriage truly mean.

Why do you think when reality hits in (RW) she obviously turns away from tyrion?

The two of them being bff is just as much of a fantasy as the Tyrell marriage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Same here.

We got to see her funny, playful, lovable side in this episode. They are needed for her future arc.

Can't just have Sansa be distant to Tyrion from the start since this would make her appear unsympathetic (yes, this is because TV Tyrion is very likable).

Sansa was forcibly married to Tyrion, who's a high ranking enemy, who was her chief jailer for a long time and who is 20-25 years older. She should be distant or worse to him. Nothing unlikeable about it if you are a reasonably objective viewer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sansa was forcibly married to Tyrion, who's a high ranking enemy, who was her chief jailer for a long time and who is 20-25 years older. She should be distant or worse to him. Nothing unlikeable about it if you are a reasonably objective viewer.

Lol. I'm not sure how you would define "reasonably objective viewer."

TV Tyrion has never treated Sansa badly. It has been made painfully clear that the reason Sansa is kept in KL is because Robb would not trade Jaime for her. TV Tyrion has also been portrayed as the only one who could check Joffrey and Cersei (until the arrival of Tywin), who are the archnemesis to the Starks. Not to mention Peter Dinklage is pretty good looking, and funny...

So I don't see how any reasonably objective viewers could come to sympathizes a version of Sansa who never even tries to get along with Tyrion, especially when she has been specifically admonished by Margaery to do so.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sansa was forcibly married to Tyrion, who's a high ranking enemy, who was her chief jailer for a long time and who is 20-25 years older. She should be distant or worse to him. Nothing unlikeable about it if you are a reasonably objective viewer.

:agree:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lol. I'm not sure how you would define "reasonably objective viewer."

Yeah, I don't get that either. Sansa has a certain personality, Tyrion has a certain personality, and how each of us react as individuals to those personalities is not something that can be objectively qualified as "right" or "wrong". It's the same reason why, in real life, there are people we really like who others can't stand, and vice-versa. We all have different backgrounds, personal experiences, and expectations, and so judge characters differently. Similarly, many of us have different moral judgment of real world actions and events, and the moral valuation of those actions isn't "objective" either.

Immediately prior to her wedding, Sansa's comment in the book to Tyrion was "I remember. You were kind to me.". At the very least, that provides some objective basis to support the opinions of those who think Tyrion doesn't deserve to be treated like an enemy. It may not be the "right" opinion, but it is not a baseless opinion, without any textual foundation at all.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lol. I'm not sure how you would define "reasonably objective viewer."

TV Tyrion has never treated Sansa badly. It has been made painfully clear that the reason Sansa is kept in KL is because Robb would not trade Jaime for her. TV Tyrion has also been portrayed as the only one who could check Joffrey and Cersei (until the arrival of Tywin), who are the archnemesis to the Starks. Not to mention Peter Dinklage is pretty good looking, and funny...

So I don't see how any reasonably objective viewers could come to sympathizes a version of Sansa who never even tries to get along with Tyrion, especially when she has been specifically admonished by Margaery to do so.

That is why maybe instead of fanboying it up over Tyrion the show writers should have displayed his flaws, like how he was actively stonewalling the prisoner exchanges rather then having it so they have to rewrite her reaction to better suit their fan fiction.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1. first of all the whole reason why you critisesed her about before is that she was not feeling sorry for herself enogh and wasn't being miserable enough.

No, I never said any such thing. I've never endorsed excessive self-pitying, although it is likely that we disagree on how much is excessive.

2. No one in the entire book is more selfpitying than tyrion. He is the champion in that regard.

You ignored the other half of my sentence. Here's the whole thing again:

To the extent they self-pity, it is not to the exclusion of well-developed, real-world, non-fantasy interactions with other people.

If it is your argument that Tyrion does not have a lot of well-developed, real-world, non-fantasy interactions with other characters, then we must have been reading a different series. He is an active rather than a passive character.

I mean the guy was just sitting around feeling sorry for himself that a 12 year old girl doesn't want to sleep with him. Lets take out our tisses and cry out hearts out. That is obviously the biggest tragedy ever happened in the book.

Right. That's all he does. Sit around feeling sorry for himself.

Yet when she does communicate with others and ends up trusting them she is a fool. Like with Dontos and the tyrells right?

Dontos? Yes, because I think her Jonquil/Florian stuff is foolish. You may disagree. As to the Tyrells, no. You can have active interactions with lots and lots of people without believing they are your bff's. Again, it's the difference in personalities between Arya and Sansa. Arya would be shooting her mouth off, and that's not Sansa. How each of those characters appeals to us individually as readers is entirely a matter of personal preference.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is why maybe instead of fanboying it up over Tyrion the show writers should have displayed his flaws, like how he was actively stonewalling the prisoner exchanges rather then having it so they have to rewrite her reaction to better suit their fan fiction.

That certainly is one way to look at this. But I would rather give the produces the benefit of the doubt and see where they take this whole thing. Remember when you said it would never happen for Tyrion to try to violate Sansa? I bet you that is looking more and more possible now. ;)

Also, I'm wondering if San Stans are letting their prejudice getting in their way of appreciating Sansa's scenes. Somehow I see a lot of character development in this episode, but I am getting the feeling that San Stans do not share my observations.

I am saying all this not because I am a Tyrion fanboy. Just so you know, Jon is my favorite character in the books, but TV Jon is one of my least favorites. But since TV Jon fits within the plot that the producers have set, I don't let it bother me too much. I think it is the same with Sansa. What matters is whether her character fits within the overall story, and for me, that answer is yes.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dontos? Yes, because I think her Jonquil/Florian stuff is foolish.

Others already told you that it was mainly Dontos who was inoto that fantasy. sansa herself found him quite repulsive, but went along with it because she wanted to get out from KL.

As to the Tyrells, no.

Why?

Why are they obviously worse than tyty and his great family?

It is riduculous to say it is more foolish to trust in them than in tyty.

Especially since in the book tyrion did say that how they treat Sansa depends how Robb treats Jaime.

Right. That's all he does.

Oh he does feel self pity for a lot of different things as well. But there is way more focus in the book on tyrions selfpity about Sansa not wanting to sleep with him, than about Sansa's self pity either about the marriage or about the situation she is in.

And nice to see that you didn't have any reply about the last thoughts in my previous post, conviently left out:

You see here she is "escaping" as well (I wouldn'T call it that, but everyone who is not a miserbale shit about the bad things that happen to them is according to you is escaping, so I will use it).

She doesn't think about how her in.laws are Joff, Tywin, Cersei. And she doesn't think about what it means for her family. I actually thought Sansa was rather stupid in that scene.

And this "escaping" burns her at the end of the episode when the news about the RW arrive and she has to face what is the family she was forced to marry into truly are. What her marriage truly mean.

Why do you think when reality hits in (RW) she obviously turns away from tyrion?

The two of them being bff is just as much of a fantasy as the Tyrell marriage.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Lol. I'm not sure how you would define "reasonably objective viewer."

TV Tyrion has never treated Sansa badly. It has been made painfully clear that the reason Sansa is kept in KL is because Robb would not trade Jaime for her. TV Tyrion has also been portrayed as the only one who could check Joffrey and Cersei (until the arrival of Tywin), who are the archnemesis to the Starks. Not to mention Peter Dinklage is pretty good looking, and funny...

So I don't see how any reasonably objective viewers could come to sympathizes a version of Sansa who never even tries to get along with Tyrion, especially when she has been specifically admonished by Margaery to do so.

Tyrion is a leader of the enemies. Doesn't matter that he personally was decent to her so far. His family killed her father and are at war with House Stark. What's so hard to understand about Sansa not wanting to be nice to Tyrion? I honestly don't get how this makes her unsympathetic. What would you do in her situation?

That scene were Marg admonished Sansa was really terrible, maybe the worst of the season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is why maybe instead of fanboying it up over Tyrion the show writers should have displayed his flaws, like how he was actively stonewalling the prisoner exchanges rather then having it so they have to rewrite her reaction to better suit their fan fiction.

I don't think it's fare to blame that on Tyrion. Both sides were proposing unreasonable exchanges and unworkable peace treaties. It's all part of the game of diplomacy. The only person who really suffered for it was poor Cleos having to ride back and forth with proposals that were never designed to be accepted in the first place.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is why maybe instead of fanboying it up over Tyrion the show writers should have displayed his flaws, like how he was actively stonewalling the prisoner exchanges rather then having it so they have to rewrite her reaction to better suit their fan fiction.

There's really no way to have an active discussion with anyone who thinks the show is "fanboying it up over Tyrion" and that it's "fan fiction" that doesn't display his flaws, but hey, I'm gonna try.

They do indeed display his flaws. If you think that Show!Tyrion has been portrayed as Ned 2.0 Heroic, you have absolutely *not* been paying attention - to either the show or any of the other Discussing Sansa threads - or you have a skewed concept of heroism. He drinks, he whores, he engages with mercenaries, he threatens people, he intimidates people. Show!Tyrion may have a slightly more noble code of honor than his book counterpart (and I'd even debate the nuances of that), but he still plays the game. He is no white knight; he does not defy his father; he advances his chess pieces through political maneuvering, intelligence, spying and mercenary work. One tiny example: Ned warned Cersei about revealing his information; when Tyrion could have attempted to comfort Sansa, he left the room instead. Self-pitying, indeed.

I'll admit; Tyrion is one of my favorite book characters. Because he's intelligent, witty, gray, and a good read, not because he's The Hero Of the Story; in fact, he's a scoundrel. He's actually interesting to watch because he is trapped between doing a potentially noble thing, being loyal to his family, trying to advance the realm, and trying to save his own skin all at once. He doesn't always succeed at multiple facets of that, and part of why I find him empathetic is those "no good answer" scenarios. I adore Dinklage's portrayal of him, and consider it nuanced instead of "whitewashed".

For the rest of it, you can go read some of the other posts I've made in Discussing Sansa. I also have nothing personally against Sansa as a character. I'm just tired of misdirected hatred for Show!Tyrion because of something he's *not*, and because people want to defend poor Sansa. If he were Ned, Tyrion would be dead by now. And he likes living, so he's not Ned. :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That certainly is one way to look at this. But I would rather give the produces the benefit of the doubt and see where they take this whole thing. Remember when you said it would never happen for Tyrion to try to violate Sansa? I bet you that is looking more and more possible now. ;)

It is more likely that Sansa will turn into a dragon in season 4 who then personally burns all of the Lannisters into burnt crisps then them showing a scene where show:Tyrion attempts to actively rape Sansa after the bedding scene.

To the extent they self-pity, it is not to the exclusion of well-developed, real-world, non-fantasy interactions with other people.

You mean like all the Sandor and Sansa exchanges that they basically cut out from the series? Or all the Dontos interactions where she spent quite a bit of time angry at Dontos for being so slow in planning?

Moreover, I must have gotten about how Tyrion's strong believe that Shae really loved him or how Sansa could come to love him or how he could when his father's love as his heir or his believe that he was actually the Hand of the King to Joffrey was so non-fantasy based.

They do indeed display his flaws. If you think that Show!Tyrion has been portrayed as Ned 2.0 Heroic, you have absolutely *not* been paying attention - to either the show or any of the other Discussing Sansa threads - or you have a skewed concept of heroism. He drinks, he whores, he engages with mercenaries, he threatens people, he intimidates people.

His whoring, drinking, and his interactions with Bronn are hardly shown to be anything negative at all in the series, seeing how he relatively faithful in his whoring, he is never really drunk, and Bronn is made out to be a pretty cool guy. Moreover, the only person I recall him actively threatening seems to be Lancel(a butt monkey), Joffrey, and one of the Kingsguard who had just beaten Sansa thus it is not like this stuff viewers will register as terrible specially when there is no focus on these acts.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tyrion is a leader of the enemies. Doesn't matter that he personally was decent to her so far. His family killed her father and are at war with House Stark. What's so hard to understand about Sansa not wanting to be nice to Tyrion? I honestly don't get how this makes her unsympathetic. What would you do in her situation?

See, this is the overarching "black and white" going on right here ("a leader of the enemies"). Tyrion is a member of House Lannister, yes; if you think he leads said House (or that Tywin would even *let* him lead), I'd go back and reread/rewatch. Tywin wants his son to be a good little soldier in the defense of his House. Trouble is, Tyrion thinks for himself and doesn't always cotton to what his dad does. Still, Tyrion's first motivation is to save his own skin, so he doesn't move to oppose his father.

Also, Tyrion has never personally ordered anything bad to happen to the Stark family. He doesn't lead the forces out against the Starks, or even create any scenario that has directly harmed a Stark; take note of his surprise at his father's actions at the Red Wedding, and his distaste for it, shown *both* in-novel and in-show. He's a member of the family doing it, but call it what it is - you blame him for not being in outright opposition to his father and his family (one in the same, really, in many instances).

So yeah, no. No Lannister leader here. At best, a rogue agent that, above all, acts in his own interest. It's when he does act in the interest of a) other people and B) the realm that makes him so interesting to follow. Will he actually have a prick of conscience? Will he follow it, or the coward's way? Let's all find out!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His whoring, drinking, and his interactions with Bronn are hardly shown to be anything negative at all in the series, seeing how he relatively faithful in his whoring, he is never really drunk, and Bronn is made out to be a pretty cool guy.

*blinks* Never really drunk? Did you see the wedding night scene? Or this week's "drink with Pod and then with Cersei"? What's "really drunk" to you? Because he's in his cups a whoooooole lot.

Relatively faithful in his whoring - at this point in the books, he's also pretty faithful to Shae, so that argument ("whitewashed" versus not) doesn't hold water.

And whether or not Bronn is a "pretty cool guy", he's a merc. And we just haven't gotten to *that* dagger thrust yet, because we're not there in the books yet. At this point in the books, Bronn seems pretty faithful. Next.

Moreover, the only person I recall him actively threatening seems to be Lancel(a butt monkey), Joffrey, and one of the Kingsguard who had just beaten Sansa thus it is not like this stuff viewers will register as terrible specially when there is no focus on these acts.

Depends on your viewers. I have not yet heard any of my friends who watch, Unsullied or no, think Tyrion is anything other than what he is at this point - a self-interested rogue agent who you wouldn't quite want to be friends with because you never know what's going to happen to you when he wants to save his own skin. Tyrion's got a dark journey ahead of him. If they're not going to shy away from beating the audience over the head with Theon's gelded remains and Grey Wind's head on Robb's body, I don't think they're gonna shy away from that darkness, either. If Tyrion doesn't wind up killing Shae or Tywin, then I'll agree with all the "whitewashed" criers. At this point, I don't think him being nice to Sansa qualifies as a massive whitewash, especially since he wasn't mean to her in the books.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

*blinks* Never really drunk? Did you see the wedding night scene? Or this week's "drink with Pod and then with Cersei"? What's "really drunk" to you? Because he's in his cups a whoooooole lot.

Relatively faithful in his whoring - at this point in the books, he's also pretty faithful to Shae, so that argument ("whitewashed" versus not) doesn't hold water.

And whether or not Bronn is a "pretty cool guy", he's a merc. And we just haven't gotten to *that* dagger thrust yet, because we're not there in the books yet. At this point in the books, Bronn seems pretty faithful. Next.

He has been drunk once that I can think of during the show otherwise he just drinks, which is a particularly grey activity thus it doesn't really make him more flawed. On the other two points I never said those were whitewashed I just said they don't count as grey aspects in how they aren't portrayed negatively not anything about how they changed it from the books.

Depends on your viewers. I have not yet heard any of my friends who watch, Unsullied or no, think Tyrion is anything other than what he is at this point - a self-interested rogue agent who you wouldn't quite want to be friends with because you never know what's going to happen to you when he wants to save his own skin. Tyrion's got a dark journey ahead of him. If they're not going to shy away from beating the audience over the head with Theon's gelded remains and Grey Wind's head on Robb's body, I don't think they're gonna shy away from that darkness, either. If Tyrion doesn't wind up killing Shae or Tywin, then I'll agree with all the "whitewashed" criers. At this point, I don't think him being nice to Sansa qualifies as a massive whitewash, especially since he wasn't mean to her in the books.

They have already shied away from showing different grey/dark acts of his from the other books. Hell, we got a whole pointless scene where Cersei captures Ros and threaten her which in response they took out Tyrion's dark response of equally threatening Tommen thus helping play into Cersei's fears that he might harm her children from the books. Without that foreshadowing of why Cersei believes that he could have killed Joffrey why did they add that scene which added nothing.

Similarly, they didn't have him participate in the Tysha gang rape through that would require only an extra single line of dialogue to his story. They add a pointless scene where he warns Sansa before the Wedding and he actively seems opposed to the idea something he wasn't in the books.

I am not mad that they don't have him laughing at Sansa's misfortune, beating her, or raping her instead I am annoyed about other changes that they have dropped that only makes him look even better then the book character.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

See, this is the overarching "black and white" going on right here ("a leader of the enemies"). Tyrion is a member of House Lannister, yes; if you think he leads said House (or that Tywin would even *let* him lead), I'd go back and reread/rewatch. Tywin wants his son to be a good little soldier in the defense of his House. Trouble is, Tyrion thinks for himself and doesn't always cotton to what his dad does. Still, Tyrion's first motivation is to save his own skin, so he doesn't move to oppose his father.

Tyrion was the Hand for a time, isn't that leadership enough for you? I never said he was the leader of the House - I said he was "a leader" which is a fact. First he was the acting hand and practically in command in the capital, and now he's finance minister.

Also, Tyrion has never personally ordered anything bad to happen to the Stark family. He doesn't lead the forces out against the Starks, or even create any scenario that has directly harmed a Stark; take note of his surprise at his father's actions at the Red Wedding, and his distaste for it, shown *both* in-novel and in-show. He's a member of the family doing it, but call it what it is - you blame him for not being in outright opposition to his father and his family (one in the same, really, in many instances).

That doesn't matter all that much. There is a war between the Starks and the Lannisters and Tyrion was a high-ranked enemy from Sansa's PoV. Just because Tyrion was busy on other fronts doesn't make him not an enemy.

So yeah, no. No Lannister leader here. At best, a rogue agent that, above all, acts in his own interest. I

A rogue agent? He's acted in the interest of House Lannister and obeyed his dad every step of the way.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...