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[BOOK SPOILERS] Discussing Sansa III


Mladen

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In terms of accuracy to the book, the Tyrion/Sansa scene was terrible. It doesn't fit at all with the dynamic of the marriage at that time.

However, I think that the hopeful scene followed by the heartbreak that the RW news brings to Sansa was a decent way to round out her season purely looking at the show. It also paved the way for the rest of the Tyrion/Sansa scenes to be marked by the awkwardness that characterized their scenes in the books. It would be a difference of her being completely closed off to Tyrion from the start of the marriage to being closed off because the RW. I think I can live with that.

Of course, with D&D's track record I expect I'll be eating my words next year when the first Sansa/Tyrion scene features Sansa eagerly agreeing to have a threesome with Tyrion and Shae.

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Tyrion is a leader of the enemies. Doesn't matter that he personally was decent to her so far. His family killed her father and are at war with House Stark. What's so hard to understand about Sansa not wanting to be nice to Tyrion?

For one thing, being nice to Tyrion would actually be to her advantage. This in and of itself is a sign of growth.

I also think the fact that Tyrion was nice to Sansa should be factored in Sansa's evaluation of him. Not to mention the fact that Tyrion actually stood up for Sansa against Joffrey, which would make it harder for viewers to understand why Sansa can't be nice to him.

So yeah, the fact that Tyrion's treatment toward Sansa is so different from that of his kin is going to make Sansa appear unsympathetic to the viewers if she doesn't even try to be nice to Tyrion.

That scene were Marg admonished Sansa was really terrible, maybe the worst of the season.

GRRM wrote that episode..so I guess you can go blame him for not "getting" Sansa.

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For one thing, being nice to Tyrion would actually be to her advantage. This in and of itself is a sign of growth.

I also think the fact that Tyrion was nice to Sansa should be factored in Sansa's evaluation of him. Not to mention the fact that Tyrion actually stood up for Sansa against Joffrey, which would make it harder for viewers to understand why Sansa can't be nice to him.

So yeah, the fact that Tyrion's treatment toward Sansa is so different from that of his kin is going to make Sansa appear unsympathetic to the viewers if she doesn't even try to be nice to Tyrion.

Some viewers will never see the situation for what it is, but Tyrion is Sansa's jailer. Her nicest jailer, but he's still her jailer, and his interests are not hers. Moreover, it would be easier for the audience to understand why Sansa was not "nice" to him if the writers didn't remove huge chunks of her story in order to make Tyrion look better.

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GRRM wrote that episode..so I guess you can go blame him for not "getting" Sansa.

The Show writers tell George what they want him to write, moreover they shifted a lot around in George's episode so we don't even know if that was initially something that he wrote instead of someone else.

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It is more likely that Sansa will turn into a dragon in season 4 who then personally burns all of the Lannisters into burnt crisps then them showing a scene where show:Tyrion attempts to actively rape Sansa after the bedding scene.

I think this is the root of the problem. You think you know exactly what is going to happen in regard to Sansa's character development. That is not being open minded. If you have already denied any chance that the producers might turn Tyrion more grey down the line, or show Sansa developing, then no matter that the show does, you will always swipe it aside as "not good enough".

Why even watch the show if you already presume to know what is going to happen.

I see Sansa being portrayed very sympathetically in this episode, but yet people are still complaining that her character is being assassinated.

I'm starting to think people's real problem is not with Sansa's portrayal, but Tyrion's.

Rather than making this about Sansa, why not just be honest with yourselves and make this thread about the continuing "whitewashing" of Tyrion?

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Tyrion was the Hand for a time, isn't that leadership enough for you? I never said he was the leader of the House - I said he was "a leader" which is a fact. First he was the acting hand and practically in command in the capital, and now he's finance minister.

That's leadership of the kingdom, not leadership of his House. And I will note that as Hand, he didn't do anything specifically aimed at the Starks or Sansa. He ran, at best, Kings' Landing, and put a few chess pieces in place. And, as Hand, he acted against his own family at that point by arranging Myrcella's marriage, and by threatening Joff and Cersei both (or is that not against his family enough for you?)

And we've already seen that "finance minister" was a demotion, and a pointed demotion at that.

That doesn't matter all that much. There is a war between the Starks and the Lannisters and Tyrion was a high-ranked enemy from Sansa's PoV. Just because Tyrion was busy on other fronts doesn't make him not an enemy.

If we're talking about "from Sansa's PoV," point out where to me in the books she explicitly says that Tyrion is "a high-ranked enemy." She notes he's a Lannister; in a nearly identical breath, however, she also notes that he's the only Lannister who's been kind to her.

A rogue agent? He's acted in the interest of House Lannister and obeyed his dad every step of the way.

Um. No. He's acted solely in the interest of self-preservation - very different, BTW - and if he'd obeyed his dad every step of the way, Sansa would be deflowered, and he'd never speak out against Joff. Because he's most interested in saving himself, it makes him a rogue agent. As we see VERY clearly later on in the books...

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The Show writers tell George what they want him to write, moreover they shifted a lot around in George's episode so we don't even know if that was initially something that he wrote instead of someone else.

Yeah. You'll just have to pardon me for taking what you've said with a grain of salt.

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I think this is the root of the problem. You think you know exactly what is going to happen in regard to Sansa's character development. That is not being open minded. If you have already denied any chance that the producers might turn Tyrion more grey down the line, or show Sansa developing, then no matter that the show does, you will always swipe it aside as "not good enough".

Why even watch the show if you already presume to know what is going to happen.

I see Sansa being portrayed very sympathetically in this episode, but yet people are still complaining that her character is being assassinated.

I'm starting to think people's real problem is not with Sansa's portrayal, but Tyrion's.

Rather than making this about Sansa, why not just be honest with yourselves and make this thread about the continuing "whitewashing" of Tyrion?

Well, first of all, Tyrion and Sansa's portrayals are interlinked, because their characters have been closely associated this year (indeed, the primary goal of the writers in adapting her story was to make Tyrion look as good as possible).

People can only speculate based on the show's track record. The show's track record with Sansa this season is pretty bad (and, indeed, had problems in season two, though she had a number of strong individual scenes there).

Being "sympathetic" is not the issue (and the show's handling of Sansa by constantly making her the butt of jokes and not allowing her the parts of her story where she takes an active role actually makes it harder for people in the audience to sympathize with her).

That's leadership of the kingdom, not leadership of his House. And I will note that as Hand, he didn't do anything specifically aimed at the Starks or Sansa. He ran, at best, Kings' Landing, and put a few chess pieces in place. And, as Hand, he acted against his own family at that point by arranging Myrcella's marriage, and by threatening Joff and Cersei both (or is that not against his family enough for you?)

And we've already seen that "finance minister" was a demotion, and a pointed demotion at that.

...

If we're talking about "from Sansa's PoV," point out where to me in the books she explicitly says that Tyrion is "a high-ranked enemy." She notes he's a Lannister; in a nearly identical breath, however, she also notes that he's the only Lannister who's been kind to her.

Being her kindest jailer doesn't make him not a jailer. Moreover, he was Hand. He helped run the Lannister war effort, which is directed against the Starks. It is totally immaterial whether his primary focus was on them or not (and he did, in fact, fight against them at Green Fork).

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if the writers didn't remove huge chunks of her story in order to make Tyrion look better.

Where do you even get this stuff? How is it automatically Tyrion's fault and to make Tyrion look better? People have already explained ten times over how altering certain parts of Sansa's story a) makes her look more mature than book!Sansa and B) happen because most of what's going on is in her head and is difficult to translate to either dialogue or physicality without it getting even more heinously misinterpreted than it could be. How is this the fault of Tyrion's character?

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Some viewers will never see the situation for what it is, but Tyrion is Sansa's jailer. Her nicest jailer, but he's still her jailer, and his interests are not hers.

Tyrion is her jailer, but let's not forget Tyrion would also gladly trade Sansa over to Robb for Jaime. It's not like the other side made any real effort to bargain for Sansa's freedom.

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The Show writers tell George what they want him to write, moreover they shifted a lot around in George's episode so we don't even know if that was initially something that he wrote instead of someone else.

:shocked: You've gotta be kidding. You didn't just say that. Go read the interview on Entertainment Weekly where George is pushing back on Dave and Dan about Winds of Winter and then come back here and tell me that they tell George what to write about his own characters and universe, who he is quite protective of.

C'mon. This is getting exaggeratedly ridiculous in defense of a single character.

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I think this is the root of the problem. You think you know exactly what is going to happen in regard to Sansa's character development. That is not being open minded. If you have already denied any chance that the producers might turn Tyrion more grey down the line, or show Sansa developing, then no matter that the show does, you will always swipe it aside as "not good enough".

It doesn't even have to do with the issue of their whitewashing Tyrion, simply they are not going to have a scene where he almost attempts to rape Sansa. Simply, there is nothing to indicate that they will randomly decide to add in a decidedly more dark scene that wasn't in the books just to add in some greyness to the character of Tyrion.

At most, they might have a scene where Joffrey almost rapes Sansa while she is in Tyrion's quarters demonstrating how he cannot actually protect her thus why she needs to flee. However, a Tyrion scene where he almost commits rape I highly doubt will occur.

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Where do you even get this stuff? How is it automatically Tyrion's fault and to make Tyrion look better?

What other purpose was served by having Tyrion tell Sansa in advance, and generally do everything to be a gallant gentleman, and remove his desire for Winterfell and her (the latter being only lightly alluded to, the former completely gone), but to make Tyrion look better? All of that came at Sansa's expense, by giving more and more ammunition to people convinced that she's just ungrateful for not loving the wonderful Tyrion (they even gave Margaery a speech about it, which brushed aside her hatred of Lannisters and made it look like her main problem was not wanting to marry a dwarf).

People have already explained ten times over how altering certain parts of Sansa's story a) makes her look more mature than book!Sansa

Such as? Most of Sansa's screentime this season has been about making the audience and the other characters laugh at her for being stupid.

Tyrion is her jailer, but let's not forget Tyrion would also gladly trade Sansa over to Robb for Jaime. It's not like the other side made any real effort to bargain for Sansa's freedom.

Trading Jaime for Sansa is impossible, and everyone knows that. Moreover, Tyrion is well aware that his House hasn't a leg to stand on in the war, morally, but he doesn't care.

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Well, first of all, Tyrion and Sansa's portrayals are interlinked, because their characters have been closely associated this year (indeed, the primary goal of the writers in adapting her story was to make Tyrion look as good as possible).

Please. PLEASE find me a reference, ANY reference, that states unequivocally that the primary goals of the writers is to make Tyrion look as good as possible, rather than this being just your opinion and conjecture, which is what it's sounding like. People are going off the deep end with this assumption and I'm really kind of tired of reading it as fact. If there is a reference out there that outright says it, I'll believe you. Until then, this is just your opinion and not fact.

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Thiiiiiiiiiiis. Exactly what I've been trying to point out.

Tyrion's characterization directly affects Sansa's characterization, as has been pointed out quite clearly. The writers are unwilling to have him be even slightly unheroic, which means that Tyrion/Sansa marriage has to be completely reworked to keep him spotless.

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Yeah. You'll just have to pardon me for taking what you've said with a grain of salt.

:shocked: You've gotta be kidding. You didn't just say that. Go read the interview on Entertainment Weekly where George is pushing back on Dave and Dan about Winds of Winter and then come back here and tell me that they tell George what to write about his own characters and universe, who he is quite protective of.

C'mon. This is getting exaggeratedly ridiculous in defense of a single character.

Ran has directly said that D&D give him the outline of what they want him to write and then he is forced to build off that criteria, thus unless you want to believe that Ran is a liar that seems to be what happens.

Tyrion is her jailer, but let's not forget Tyrion would also gladly trade Sansa over to Robb for Jaime. It's not like the other side made any real effort to bargain for Sansa's freedom.

Something that he knew was an absolutely ridiculous offer that wasn't likely, especially when he was actively lying and was saying that they still held Arya. Simply, he made his terms initially to high thus to ensure that the Starks did make the deal and then realize that Arya had escaped.

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Such as? Most of Sansa's screentime this season has been about making the audience and the other characters laugh at her for being stupid.

Again. Your opinion. I have not once laughed at Sansa, and neither has my entire watching party. The general emotion is of empathy for her and feeling awful that she's been made such a pawn.

Tyrion's characterization directly affects Sansa's characterization, as has been pointed out quite clearly. The writers are unwilling to have him be even slightly unheroic, which means that Tyrion/Sansa marriage has to be completely reworked to keep him spotless.

...and I have pointed out time and again how Tyrion's characterization is NOT spotless multiple times in these threads. Tyrion is an antihero, not a hero. Ned Stark is a hero. If you can see Tyrion doing things that Ned Stark does, you don't get the character. To say he is 'spotless' is a thorough overreaction and if you are going to oversight multiple people's notations, there's nothing else I can do for you.

I'm going to stop arguing past this. If you want to see the rest of my arguments concerning Tyrion and Sansa (and other well-written ones by people such as Former Lord of Winterfell) I suggest you get over TL;DR and go read the other Discussing Sansa threads, because I don't feel like repeating myself for the tenth time to someone who has such an immense bias.

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