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Why would Mormont be guilty of selling outlaws to slavers?


Nucky Thompson

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Jorah Mormont is forced to go into exile as to not be beheaded by Ned Stark due to his selling of outlaws to slavers. Now, what exactly is criminals logic behind this rule? If Jorah had behaved in a lawful manner, the outlaws themselves would be executed, or at best, sent to the Wall (if we assume that they killed somebody and the punishment for their crime is capital). Given the characteristics of serving in the Night's Watch, which amounts to little more than slavery - if one doesn't take it as having a greater purpose (and we can safely assume that the criminals don't really believe in it), and taking place in a very cold environment, that is, how could it be a better fate than being a slave in the East? The climate, for one, is much warmer and more hospitable there. On-the-job risks such as wildlings/wights/white walkers/freezing to death are non-existent and there is no celibacy requirement. Why would anyone who doesn't believe in the greater purpose of the Night's Watch be better off when forced to join them or die on the spot? Therefore, is Eddard's verdict and the laws of the realm really so just and honourable as it seems at first glance, or are they in place in order to secure the human resources for their own slavery-like institution - the Night's Watch? Or is it the fact that Jorah took money himself which is the unlawful deed here? By doing so, he made a favour to the criminals - why shouldn't he be compensated for it? What is the leading motive behind this statutory requirement when the issues having to do with honour are not taken into consideration?

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I take it you haven't read the books? Get on that, mate.

But anyway, the simple answer to your question is "because it's a crapsack world where things don't make sense due to everyone being an asshole."

I don't know if execution/the wall necessarily would've been the punishment for the outlaws though. Pretty sure things like losing a hand and whatnot are common punishments in A Song of Ice & Fire as well.

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Jorah Mormont is forced to go into exile as to not be beheaded by Ned Stark due to his selling of outlaws to slavers. Now, what exactly is criminals logic behind this rule? If Jorah had behaved in a lawful manner, the outlaws themselves would be executed, or at best, sent to the Wall (if we assume that they killed somebody and the punishment for their crime is capital). Given the characteristics of serving in the Night's Watch, which amounts to little more than slavery - if one doesn't take it as having a greater purpose (and we can safely assume that the criminals don't really believe in it), and taking place in a very cold environment, that is, how could it be a better fate than being a slave in the East? The climate, for one, is much warmer and more hospitable there. On-the-job risks such as wildlings/wights/white walkers/freezing to death are non-existent and there is no celibacy requirement. Why would anyone who doesn't believe in the greater purpose of the Night's Watch be better off when forced to join them or die on the spot? Therefore, is Eddard's verdict and the laws of the realm really so just and honourable as it seems at first glance, or are they in place in order to secure the human resources for their own slavery-like institution - the Night's Watch? Or is it the fact that Jorah took money himself which is the unlawful deed here? By doing so, he made a favour to the criminals - why shouldn't he be compensated for it? What is the leading motive behind this statutory requirement when the issues having to do with honour are not taken into consideration?

You make it sound as though being a slave in the East is such a great life.

Obviously Westerosi laws aren't all that just and honourable, but when a law states that slavery is not allowed, then Jorah is consequently guilty the moment he takes money in selling people. I guess one could argue about hypocrisy looking at the poor life of the Night's Watch, but that doesn't mean that selling people to a warmer climate is the 'juster' choice.

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Any sane man would prefer, by far, being a recruit of the Night's Watch than a slave in the East.

There are many the noble men (Mormont, Royce, Buckwell, Mallister,...) that actually choose to go the Wall. No one is volunteering to be a sex-slave in Lys or a castrated figther in Astapor.

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Because one is a proper punishment, delivered upon the criminal for justice.

The other is merely a transaction done for personal gain.

Once a Lord decided that he could personally gain profit from arresting people, it becomes a conflict of interest where he has a financial incentive to arrest people for crimes. Pretty soon he'll start arresting people and convicting them of imaginary crimes solely for the purpose of buying the next piece of luxury for his wife.

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First, I wouldn't call poachers outlaws, usually we'd be talking about poor people who have to resort to desperate measures to feed their families. But it's semantics, just not to confuse them with BWB.

Second, life of a slave is a terrible life. Sure, some highly educated house slaves could do very well for themselves, but uneducated poor men from Westeros who only speak their own language and have no skills? They'd be cheap labour, and cheap labour would be most likely worked to death. They could end up in mines, or working on plantations of sorts, all terrible places for slaves IRL.

They aren't gonna be sex slaves in Lys, that's total luxury compare to what expects them. And you need skill in arms to be a fighter.

I have very un-romantic view of Night's Watch. IMO it's a cold prison where they also make you say some words to dress it up and catch you in ideological prison as well. But like in a decent prison, you have certain rights there, you can't just be killed or maimed or raped. If you're not a fighter you likely won't be exposed to wildlings etc.

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The real question is, how did Mormont find slavers off the northwest coast of Westeros? Anyway, slavery is illegal in the Seven Kingdoms (with good reason!) and poor Jorah had to face the consequences. A terrible set of circumstances brought upon him by the mistake of loving the wrong woman. :(

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If I understand correctly you advocate slavery as an alternative and more "humane" way of punishment then incarceration or military service...Why stop with slavery then? I bet some folks would prefer to become organ donors then being thrown into prison...

Slavery is horrible and immoral practice, even if at some particular case a life of some particular slave is not necessarily that bad. The mere concept that some person can "own" another person and treat him as he sees fit at his discretion, is contrary to our basic moral concepts of personal autonomy and basic equality, (in religious context: as each and every men created in God's image) . Even if in Westeros people never heard about human rights, the ban on slavery shows that there is some rudimentary understanding of those concept, which will evolve in time into the principles we know.

That why it would be wrong to sale criminals to slavery, even if as slaves may be they will fare better then Night Watchmen. In Nights Watch they serve "the realm" , not individual. They's value as "human beings" is not reduced or challenged. Not so when they are made slaves and become "lesser men" that their master. Selling criminals into slavery "dishonors" them, strips them of what we would call an "inalienable human rights", while sending them to Night Watch doesn't.

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First, I wouldn't call poachers outlaws, usually we'd be talking about poor people who have to resort to desperate measures to feed their families. But it's semantics, just not to confuse them with BWB.

We don't really know to what extent poaching is considered a crime and what those guys were doing. We hear that Davos as a landed knight can hunt all the deer he wants in his woods. So maybe all deer are a noble house's property. But these guys could be anything from peasants just catching rabbits to feed a hungry family to men large scale killing deers (or seals given the climate)nto sell the hides and make a profit. The later would be outlaws likely to kill anyone who witnesses it.
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Well, IRL killing your lord's game was very serious crime, and game belonged to Lord. His forest, his lands, his game. How serious was a punishment I'd say differred. The plot of Scaramouche, as we know, starts with the lord ordering all poachers shot on sight, which is considered a bit too much and extreme, if more or less within his rights. and it's Enlightement era! Still, due to hunger and poverty this kind of poaching was very common, and in the North it is probably more common still - it's a poor region.

Westeros overall has much kinder laws that real life. Even for serious crimes people are mostly hanged, or beheaded (and swiftly at that). Whereas real life was full of very extreme, imaginative and prolonged ways of execution.

A terrible set of circumstances brought upon him by the mistake of loving the wrong woman

Loving a woman who likes something over than living in cold boring dump doesn't make one criminal. Being criminal makes one criminal. Seriously, I'd go nuts living in Bear islands (no entertainment, it's not like they have libraries and TV for intellectual fun), nothing to do, but I wouldn't start selling people into slavery to sponsor my fun or expect my supposed husband to do so. It was all on him.

Wives often complain about lack of money. Yet most people dont' start robbing banks.

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In general, going to the night's watch is a choice given to those who would otherwise be maimed or executed for their crimes, I don't think ordinary prisoners are ever compelled to go. Also, before the sentencing, there is usually some form of trial. To me, it is implied that Jorah caught the men poaching, and shipped them off to slavers without a trial. If all lords did this, it would make a mockery of the small folk's limited rights. Someone who doesn't respect the law is not considered fit to be a Lord in Westeros, so Jorah was stripped of his lands and exiled. Jorah's crime, to me, is more serious than poaching, because if all lords behaved as Jorah did, Westeros might face a peasant's uprising.

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I have very un-romantic view of Night's Watch. IMO it's a cold prison where they also make you say some words to dress it up and catch you in ideological prison as well. But like in a decent prison, you have certain rights there, you can't just be killed or maimed or raped. If you're not a fighter you likely won't be exposed to wildlings etc.

The Night's Watch was once a fairly honourable institution with a much larger complement. People have lost interest as the threat decreased, but while it's a hard life in a lot of respects, I don't know that it's really a worse lot than that of your average Westerosi peasant.

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Because one is a proper punishment, delivered upon the criminal for justice.

The other is merely a transaction done for personal gain.

Once a Lord decided that he could personally gain profit from arresting people, it becomes a conflict of interest where he has a financial incentive to arrest people for crimes. Pretty soon he'll start arresting people and convicting them of imaginary crimes solely for the purpose of buying the next piece of luxury for his wife.

That's a very interesting point.

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The Night's Watch was once a fairly honourable institution with a much larger complement. People have lost interest as the threat decreased, but while it's a hard life in a lot of respects, I don't know that it's really a worse lot than that of your average Westerosi peasant.

Since the average Westerosi peasant spends all his time starving during Winter, being abused by the nobility and raided in wartime, I'd say being a Night Watchmen is better (as long as you're a builder or a steward, being a ranger sucks).

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... he could personally gain profit from arresting people, it becomes a conflict of interest where he has a financial incentive to arrest people for crimes. Pretty soon he'll start arresting people and convicting them of imaginary crimes solely for the purpose of buying the next piece of luxury for his wife.

This reminds one uncomfortably of the privately owned and run-for-profit prisons in the US and their lobbying for harsher punishments and against legalization of Marihuana, doesn't it ...

The real question is, how did Mormont find slavers off the northwest coast of Westeros?

That's what I have always wondered too. Also, the captain would be running a terrible risk shipping those two men from Bear Island to Essos. He would have to put into Westerosi ports on the way back, his sailors would talk when in their cups ...

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