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Tyrion4President

[Book Spoilers] Positive Nitpicking

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And now I want to talk a bit about Jon. While his relationship with Ygritte has been slow, especially in relation to some of the other stories, I think there's a very good comparison to Robb and Talisa that should be made. Robb chose love over duty, and Jon chose duty over love. They both took three arrows (bolts) for their decision, but one is still alive and the other isn't. Aemon put it best when he said that "Love is the death of duty."

Excellent point, I totally missed the connection between the arrows/bolts.

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Iwan Rheon as Ramsay Snow is absolutely fantastic. He is both terrifying yet compelling fascinating. I actually find Show!Ramsay more compelling than Book!Ramsay. I also like that both Roose and Ramsay have the chilling gray eyes as described in the books.

It's also nice knowing what great friends Iwan and Alfie have become off set. It sorta makes the brutality more bearable?

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I liked how Dany being lifted up by the slaves paralleled Jon being lifted up by his brothers. Despite the very different contexts, it's still nice to get little nods like this.

...

Robb chose love over duty, and Jon chose duty over love. They both took three arrows (bolts) for their decision, but one is still alive and the other isn't. Aemon put it best when he said that "Love is the death of duty."

Those are two really great parallels - thanks for pointing them out.

On Dany & Jon - to make it much darker, you could see a parallel to the crowd carrying Robb!Wind and chanting "King in the North!" - the Freys were after all once Robb's men. Fickleness of crowds, and all that. Note that chanting crowds holding up rulers, in very different ways, both begin and end the episode - an interesting bookend.

I thought this was a great episode - just the final scene was a little weak for a season finale. But I like how there's a bit of ambiguity in the final scene: I really hope they've not just got Dany as a white Messiah, but rather showing that there are problems with this approach. Are Dany's smiles those of joy, or are there signs of insanity and megalomania there?

With Dany: a faint echo between Dany's slightly heavy necklace and the big heavy slave collars, reminding us how her whole story began with her being sold to Khal Drogo.

Loved so much about this episode. Arya and Sam in particular became more the characters I love in the books: Arya more psycho, Sam more competent. Loved the ambivalent feeling around Arya's stabbing: "Yeah! Go girl! REVENGE!!!!! Oh ... um ... ok, this is creepy." (An echo of how both Jamie and Theon get some of the punishment the audience wants - and then we realize that maybe revenge isn't as sweet as we think.)

I get how people say the Davos scenes didn't add much, but man they were well done - Liam Cunningham as Davos is fantastic.

Boatful of laughs as Gendry set out, although I guess in retrospect that won't seem so amusing if the next time we see Gendy he's a skeleton found by Ironborn or something. (He wouldn't be meeting up with Yara, would he?!)

The way Melisandre was throwing the Stark pieces into the fire. Understated and nicely done: both a small sacrifice to her god, and an echo of the burning Stark camp that opened the episode.

Davos and "niggat" - I assume here recognize that from "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"? Plus that IS, very roughly, how you pronounce it if you're reading Chaucer or Middle English.

The Hound eating again, and no attention called to it - it's just happening in the background. More understatement: Arya's apparent resignation to being with the Hound.

They did a great job transitioning between the different scenes this time, which may be why it didn't seem as "jumpy" as past episodes with so many stories: especially Rat Cook to Walder/Roose to Ramsey.

I like the dragons carved into Dragonstone. Once again, there in the background, left uncommented on.

And lots more to like, that others have commented above.

EDIT: For those who find the episode forums/discussions a little negative, you may want to have a look at the "General (GoT)" section - I often find those more interesting, and less likely to convince me that, no, I didn't really like that hour of television that I thought I really enjoyed. However, spoilers abound!

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Jon and Ygritte's scene. I know a lot of people have been complaining about how "cheesy" it was, but I was a sucker for it.

I never really cared that much about the Jon/Ygritte love interest in the books, and even when Jon finds her after the battle at Castle Black my reaction was just kinda like "ouch, that must suck for Jon". During their little face-off scene in the show though I was genuinely empathizing with them and how betrayed Ygritte probably felt- funny sidenote, it was during this scene that some debris out of nowhere assaulted my eyeballs and they started watering. No crying from me. Nuh-uh.

Gonna be rough when that aftermath of the Castle Black battle scene comes next season.

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On Dany & Jon - to make it much darker, you could see a parallel to the crowd carrying Robb!Wind and chanting "King in the North!" - the Freys were after all once Robb's men. Fickleness of crowds, and all that. Note that chanting crowds holding up rulers, in very different ways, both begin and end the episode - an interesting bookend.

Oh I like that. I like that a lot. Nice catch!

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- RobbWind

- Rat cook story leading into Roose and Walder conversation.

- "I AM NOT TIRED!"

- Arya pulling out the Braavosi coin. 'I have money.' (chills)

- Sandor and Arya slaying the three Freys.

- Why is there a 'g' in night?!

- Davos and Gendry conversation.

- Theon and Ramsay as always.

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On Dany & Jon - to make it much darker, you could see a parallel to the crowd carrying Robb!Wind and chanting "King in the North!" - the Freys were after all once Robb's men. Fickleness of crowds, and all that. Note that chanting crowds holding up rulers, in very different ways, both begin and end the episode - an interesting bookend.

I thought this was a great episode - just the final scene was a little weak for a season finale. But I like how there's a bit of ambiguity in the final scene: I really hope they've not just got Dany as a white Messiah, but rather showing that there are problems with this approach. Are Dany's smiles those of joy, or are there signs of insanity and megalomania there?

I get how people say the Davos scenes didn't add much, but man they were well done - Liam Cunningham as Davos is fantastic.

I like your thoughts on Dany's scene. I will have to re-watch it with that in mind. It is a huge responsibility that she is taking on and leaving open the question of Can she handle it?

Also, I just love Liam Cunningham. :thumbsup:

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Those are two really great parallels - thanks for pointing them out.

On Dany & Jon - to make it much darker, you could see a parallel to the crowd carrying Robb!Wind and chanting "King in the North!" - the Freys were after all once Robb's men. Fickleness of crowds, and all that. Note that chanting crowds holding up rulers, in very different ways, both begin and end the episode - an interesting bookend.

I thought this was a great episode - just the final scene was a little weak for a season finale. But I like how there's a bit of ambiguity in the final scene: I really hope they've not just got Dany as a white Messiah, but rather showing that there are problems with this approach. Are Dany's smiles those of joy, or are there signs of insanity and megalomania there?

With Dany: a faint echo between Dany's slightly heavy necklace and the big heavy slave collars, reminding us how her whole story began with her being sold to Khal Drogo.

Loved so much about this episode. Arya and Sam in particular became more the characters I love in the books: Arya more psycho, Sam more competent. Loved the ambivalent feeling around Arya's stabbing: "Yeah! Go girl! REVENGE!!!!! Oh ... um ... ok, this is creepy." (An echo of how both Jamie and Theon get some of the punishment the audience wants - and then we realize that maybe revenge isn't as sweet as we think.)

I like the dragons carved into Dragonstone. Once again, there in the background, left uncommented on.

And lots more to like, that others have commented above.

EDIT: For those who find the episode forums/discussions a little negative, you may want to have a look at the "General (GoT)" section - I often find those more interesting, and less likely to convince me that, no, I didn't really like that hour of television that I thought I really enjoyed. However, spoilers abound!

Between this post & victim's excellent observations, you guys have done a great job of helping me catch things I missed before and appreciate the episode even more.

I do feel like people simply referring to Arya's "badassery" are missing the point a little bit - because as much as you might be rooting for those Frey men to get a taste of Stark justice, the fact that Arya is the one doling it out - and getting further obsessed with violence and revenge as she goes on - is actually very tragic. She's so young, deeply traumatized, and her mental state is only getting worse with every kill.

You can pretty much see what little is left of her innocence leaving her eyes when she sees Robb's body, and her later stabbing of the Frey is such a natural progression that I like it a lot more than her progression in the books. There's no denying she's a little badass for taking on these grown, horrible men and succeeding, but in the case of Arya's story I feel like it's really important to question the concept of revenge, examine the cost of it, the futility, etc.

Book Spoilers:

Theon and Jaime are excellent examples of this too, and even Lady Stoneheart, IMO.

The scene did in excellent job in being uplifting and unsettling in equal measure, I thought. (Also the sitcom-y "Where'd you get that dagger?" moment afterwards was strangely adorable and got a much-needed laugh out me)

edit: oh, just realized that there's a spoiler warning right in the title of this thread so I probably didn't need to hide that behind tags anyway. oh well.

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I do feel like people simply referring to Arya's "badassery" are missing the point a little bit - because as much as you might be rooting for those Frey men to get a taste of Stark justice, the fact that Arya is the one doling it out - and getting further obsessed with violence and revenge as she goes on - is actually very tragic. She's so young, deeply traumatized, and her mental state is only getting worse with every kill.

I agree with this wholeheartedly and it's the problem I've had with discussing Arya with people. They seem to focus on how tough she is and I try to explain that yes, she's strong but this is really messed up. This is not normal and it's tragic. Especially with knowing GRRM and his adherence to a reality based (as much as you can in a fantasy) story arc for each character, it has me really worried for the end of Arya's story. I can't imagine it ending happily at all. Thankfully, my unsullied hubby gets it and he keeps say "She's crazy, she's just crazy now."

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Highlights of the episode:

Arya finally getting her first proper kill.

The Walder/Roose scene was quite fantastic.

Iwan Rheon is fantastic, even if I really don't care for that part of the story.

Dunno if it was intentional (maybe?) but when Stannis says "the boy must die" the shot is framed in such a way that the chandelier over Stannis's head looks like a crown/antlers. It's pretty cool.

Tywin staring down Joffrey was fantastic.

Aaand that's about it.

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The part when Ramsay comes *this* close to Theon's face and you don't know whether he's going to bite him or kiss him. As many others have stated, I think there is a very dark psycho-sexual undertone to their dynamic together and I'm glad D&D are hinting towards that subtly.

Most definitely, which is why he castrated him. Theon should have bitten his nose off when his face was so close. They've cast the best actors for Joffrey and Ramsay.

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"There's been a lot of hating on this episode"

This board seems to hate WAY more than they like. Just look how large the nitpick thread is for each episode compared to the positive thread. Some people just can't get the concept that this is an adaptation instead of a direct unabridged version of the text.

:cheers:

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Iwan Rheon as Ramsay Snow is absolutely fantastic. He is both terrifying yet compelling fascinating.

I couldn't agree more, Game of Thrones has officially made TV history in the most greatest foes department.

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I loved most of this episode.

Roose and Walder was awesome... I kinda got the feeling that Roose dislike Walder but plays along for his own sake... As many say Roose only needs a alliance untill he no longer has anything to win from it.

Ramsay scene was awesome...i laughed my arse off when he went ''what?....nooooooo''

Davos scenes both reading and with Gendry.

I liked pretty much all of it except ''mhysa'' scene. That is the sort of thing that can get thousands of people yelling ''racism!''.

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Love how Jon can take 3 arrows and still escape yet Robb could barely stand after lol

Well a lot depends on where you get hit and with what weapon. Ygritte was farther away and she probably wasn't shooting to kill.

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I agree with this wholeheartedly and it's the problem I've had with discussing Arya with people. They seem to focus on how tough she is and I try to explain that yes, she's strong but this is really messed up. This is not normal and it's tragic. Especially with knowing GRRM and his adherence to a reality based (as much as you can in a fantasy) story arc for each character, it has me really worried for the end of Arya's story. I can't imagine it ending happily at all. Thankfully, my unsullied hubby gets it and he keeps say "She's crazy, she's just crazy now."

Yea I don't blame show viewers for rooting for Arya becoming a 'badass' but it's kind of scary to see what kind of person she will end up as especially since she trains in Braavos to become an assassin. Also I was reading a list of all the GOT prophecies and in the 3rd book Arya meets that creepy old dwarf woman in the woods who predicted some RW stuff and has visions and when she saw Arya she said:

The dwarf woman studied her with dim red eyes. "I see you," she whispered. "I see you, wolf child. Blood child. I thought it was the lord who smelled of death . . . " She began to sob, her little body shaking. "You are cruel to come to my hill, cruel. I gorged on grief at Summerhall, I need none of yours. Begone from here, dark heart.Begone!

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Yea I don't blame show viewers for rooting for Arya becoming a 'badass' but it's kind of scary to see what kind of person she will end up as especially since she trains in Braavos to become an assassin.

Agreed, the first time I heard GRRM say that the books would have a "bittersweet ending", Arya was the the first person I thought of. She may get her revenge eventually, but then what happens next? The way it's going so far it looks like she'll have forgotten who she was and just be a servant to the many-faced god for the rest of her life.

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Agreed, the first time I heard GRRM say that the books would have a "bittersweet ending", Arya was the the first person I thought of. She may get her revenge eventually, but then what happens next? The way it's going so far it looks like she'll have forgotten who she was and just be a servant to the many-faced god for the rest of her life.

That's exactly what i think GRRM is building towards to. Arya making a huge kill, necessary to save friggin Westeros, but with it, destroying her last link with her past. The last thing that makes her Arya. In short, i think she's gonna kill Jon who's becoming a threat as big as the white walkers. It's gonna be a tearjerker for shure when she sticks him with the pointy end, shaking of her last strands of humanity with it.

OT. How great is Hodor. It's simple role and it's to make him a sort of comic relief, but i love that they don't overdo it. Also, someone mentioning on this board how awesome it was that M Aemon ordered to send out all ravens, completely believing Sam without question. Totally agree on that.

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