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[Book/Show Spoilers] What will Stannis do next season?


Ser Luke.

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Kidding aside, has no one ever wondered why is that Shireen's blood was never asked for and/or Stannis's wife never posed a Nissa Nissa role on the books, just me? Seems odd to say the least.

Part of the purpose of my joke, at least unconsciously, was to elicit the same question. It does seem quite bizarre.

Not to mention, unnecessarily complicated: why would Melisandre go all the way up for Edric Storm on the books, Gendry on the show, fighting legal guardians and looking for Brotherhoods on the road, all for blood she could've easily extracted from Shireen Baratheon without moving from Dragonstone?

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Not to mention, unnecessarily complicated: why would Melisandre go all the way up for Edric Storm on the books, Gendry on the show, fighting legal guardians and looking for Brotherhoods on the road, all for blood she could've easily extracted from Shireen Baratheon without moving from Dragonstone?

The only explanation seems to be that Stannis wouldn't let Melissandre leech his own daughter for her dubious magic.Remember that Stannis in the books isn't the puppet he is in the show, so I woudn't pu it past him to show Mel who's boss in this regard.

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The only explanation seems to be that Stannis wouldn't let Melissandre leech his own daughter for her dubious magic.Remember that Stannis in the books isn't the puppet he is in the show, so I woudn't pu it past him to show Mel who's boss in this regard.

Remember: Shireen is not a male heir in a society that looks down on females, that makes her the perfect sacrifice material.

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Yes. I'd assumed however that someone actually has to be crowned first before Mel's magic can be effective, but how does that account for a character like Balon who decided to crown himself?

Is the power through crowning or through the blood itself. During the age of heros there were 7 kingdoms. The last hero defeated the others with friends, perhaps one from every house in some process that involved their blood and the magic of the CotF, now their descendants blood have magically properties that Mel can use for her blood magic. That's why Bastards such as Edric have the magic and why houses like the florents have it.

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I'd have said so, but Mel at least to other characters shows no distinction between blood that's actually royal or the consequence of a nickname or assumed title, which is certainly how Stannis feels during Mance's mock excecution, and Jon when he takes Val's child to Oldtown. She might be being misinterpreted, but I don't think for a moment she's as consistent in her assumptions about suitable sacrifice as she might think.

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Remember: Shireen is not a male heir in a society that looks down on females, that makes her the perfect sacrifice material.

But Shireen is Stannis' only child and thus his heir, regardless of her gender. I think it's also imaginable that Stannis might have given up hope for a another child/ son by now, considering that he rarely has sex with Selyse and she has almost only borne him stillborn, which would make Shireen even more important in his eyes since she's all he has.

Additionally, Renly was near Storm's End, too. So it's not that Stannis went all the way just to get the bastard, he also had to parley with with his traitor brother. So it was basically "on the way". But even if you leave that out, I think it's understandable that Stannis would rather sacrifice some bastard than his own child. Maybe if Robert hadn't fathered any bastard Stannis would indeed have considered sacrificing Shireen, but this is a purely hypothetical matter.

So I don't think Stannis going for Edric is a "unnecesarily complicated" plot point at all.

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A common theme amongst religious plots: to kill your only child to prove your obedience to God.

The more the reasons it seems odd not to use Shireen's blood for a sacrifice.

Shireen is impure thanks to the dragonscale, perhaps?

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A common theme amongst religious plots: to kill your only child to prove your obedience to God.

The more the reasons it seems odd not to use Shireen's blood for a sacrifice.

It may seem odd to you; but just the fact that Martin chose not to use a common theme doesn't make the story contrieved or illogical (on the contrary, imho) - which was the notion I tried to refute in my previous post. Or would you rather want Stannis to say; "Nah, forget about the bastard, I'd rather sacrifice my own daughter because it^s a literary theme"?

And just on a side note, this theme is somewhat there in the books, too: "Sacrife is never easy, or it is no true sacrifice". To Stannis, sacrificing Edric is just as hard, because his iron sense of justice almost can't justify the innocent boy's death.

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It could also be that what's needed is the blood of 'Kings'. Perhaps the Lord of Light is sexist :dunno: or Kings implies not a child. So Shireen is too young or too female or too scarred.

Or Mel knows that she would lose Stannis's trust if she suggested Shireen. And Davos would act against her - an angry Uncle Davos would be a cunning and formidable opponent

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It is obvious in the book that Melisandre never suggested or asked Stannis and Selyse to sacrifice Shireen because there is not the slightest chance that they would have ever gone along with that.

Selyse was (and still is) Melisandre's way to get close to Stannis. She is her best ally in Stannis' court. And Shireen is Selyse's only child. If she would die, Stannis could very easily consider dissolving his marriage to Selyse. He could even marry Melisandre herself! Selyse would know as much, which is why she would never allow her husband and/or Mel to sacrifice her!

Even more importantly, Stannis is not stupid, either. Who would follow a man who murders his own daughter? Who would follow a king who murders his only heir? Especially in the midst of a civil war when the line of succession is not secured and his own cause could very well die with him. Without Shireen Stannis would have pretty much nothing. Losing her would be a severe blow to his cause even now.

We see how Stannis orders Justin Massey to put his daughter on the Iron Throne should he die. If Stannis had no daughter, his complete cause could very easily collapse if anyone were to spread rumors about his demise.

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  • 3 weeks later...

Potential book spoilers here, perhaps.

Yeah as someone earlier said I think it'll just be a lot of strategizing and then sailing to Eastwatch, which btw sounds exactly as boring as it should. I don't know why the show's creators seem hell bent on destroying the surprises of the books. They've already ruined Littlefinger/Sansa. Stannis arriving at the wall was a great moment in the book, not completely surprising (since it was set up already in a subtler and much smarter way than the show's writers could ever hope to achieve) but quite shocking nevertheless, and one of the few genuine "twists" of the book that didn't in fact involve some major character dying.

Given the decline in the writing though over the last couple of seasons I don't have much faith in them that they'll get Stannis right in the upcoming seasons (or any other character, for that matter). They've already simplified so many things (they've turned what was merely an obsession on Tyrion's part with Shae into actual romance), they had Melisandre declaring "oh this war of the five kings is nothing, the real battle lies North," and what the HELL btw was that scene with Stannis begging Melisandre not to leave him on the beach? I don't even remember if that was in this season or the last.

Lord only knows what they're going to do with Varys though. I mean, he's supposed to disappear post-ASoS, and for good reason, but they will probably show him plotting as well. Maybe he'll be out offering other whores money and asking them to leave King's Landing. :bang:

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Lord only knows what they're going to do with Varys though. I mean, he's supposed to disappear post-ASoS, and for good reason, but they will probably show him plotting as well. Maybe he'll be out offering other whores money and asking them to leave King's Landing. :bang:

You can't just ask a principal actor to sit out a season or two of one of the biggest shows on TV. If they show him plotting then smashing, Conleth Hill's one of the best actors on the show, more of him is surely a good thing. They could show him speaking with Ilyrio perhaps, better reminding the audience of their relationship.

But I doubt that they will have him running around King's Landing speaking to random whores because that would be plain daft.

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If, as people largely suspect, they'll be doing most of AFFC/ADWD in one season, have Varys accompany Tyrion to Pentos at the start of the season, and then have him pop up surprisingly at the very end to kill Kevan. He was in five episodes this year (one of those in a nonspeaking role), so that would be only slightly less total screentime.

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Stannis is ruined no denying it.

It all depends on how they handle his Season 4 arc. If he's still acting like this in early Season 4, then yeah he's been destroyed.

He wasn't even that bad in Season 2 either, just this recent Season he's been...blah

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It all depends on how they handle his Season 4 arc. If he's still acting like this in early Season 4, then yeah he's been destroyed.

He wasn't even that bad in Season 2 either, just this recent Season he's been...blah

I think Stannis will be awesome in season 4. He's going to be the not-on-the-Lannister's-side military commander thst the fans will rally around. I believe the show runners have been introducing us to him gradually while the resolve theRobb Stark plot thread, and now they will show the audience that there's more to Stannis than bad PR and the Red Witch.

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