[Book Spoilers] Arya and Sandor

[BadassUrukHai]

Once again, you're not talking about what actually happened on the show: those of us who watched "The Rains of Castemere" this season know that Arya herself told The Hound how she learned his story after they stole the wagon from the farmer on their way to the Twins.

At no point before or after the "Mysha" episode Arya so much as hinted that her sister heard the story too. The show changed it so that Littefinger - and not Sandor - would reveal it in season 1 ("Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things" episode).

Ok. You are a tv show fan and I'm a book fan

Don't get me wrong. I like the show but they change to much things unnecessarily. And Sansa's relationship with Sandor was interesting and they've fucking ruined it in the show

[1234567]

Ok. You are a tv show fan and I'm a book fan

Don't get me wrong. I like the show but they change to much things unnecessarily. And Sansa's relationship with Sandor was interesting and they've fucking ruined it in the show

Couldn't agree more.

[Le Cygne]

Agree three.

But even with only one mention on the show last season, there are so many fans of it who have never read the books. Must have been a good story for what little that got through to do all of that. They are like knee deep in the writers' room ignoring the story, they must need wading boots in there.

[echidna]

Once again, you're not talking about what actually happened on the show: those of us who watched "The Rains of Castemere" this season know that Arya herself told The Hound how she learned his story after they stole the wagon from the farmer on their way to the Twins.

At no point before or after the "Mysha" episode Arya so much as hinted that her sister heard the story too. The show changed it so that Littefinger - and not Sandor - would reveal it in season 1 ("Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things" episode).

Yes, I suspect revealing it in that way was less about changing the Sandor-Sansa story than showing that Gregor is an insane badass. So that Sandor's intervention to save Ser Loras made sense.

[Juli]

I'm pretty sure it will just be the same as it is in the books, to where Arya tries to murder him, can't bring herself to do it, and then leaves him behind. The actor will be off the show for a season, and return gloriously in the final one.

So your saying the Hound won't be on for one season? What do you mean final season?

[Annara Snow]

One thing I've been thinking about is how Arya leaves Sandor. Seeing their relationship on screen makes it hard to imagine Arya leaving Sandor to die. The Red Wedding also is a lot more horrible for her on the show, considering she saw Robb's body and heard the others talk about killing her mother. Unlike the book where she held on to some hope until she had the wolf dream. This is what she said right before leaving him to die.

ry

' “You shouldn’t have hit me with an axe,” she said. “You should have saved my mother.” She turned her horse and rode away from him, and never looked back once. '

Doesn't really fit with everything going on in the show, so how do you think this scene will happen?

Did it fit with everything going on in the book? That line was Arya being really ridiculous. "You shouldn't have saved my life, or should have found some way to save my life that's all gallant just like the knights in songs. You should have gone into a castle full of enemies to save my mother who may have already been dead, because one person is likely to be able to survive fighting dozens and dozens of armed people." Um, o-kay. Whatever, Arya.

Later in AFFC she's even thinking that he stopped her from saving her mother... Because she thinks a skinny little girl with some training would defeat dozens of armed people all on her own, rather than she would die immediately?

It sounded more like a lot of BS she was making herself believe because she needed someone to blame, than like something she really believed.

I suspect they'll make the fight in the inn a lot about Sandor hearing of Sansa's marriage and that will cause more friction between Sandor and Arya. He might even say that he only saved her because she's Little Bird's Sister.

The fight in the inn was about Sandor hearing of Sansa's marriage, that's why he got so drunk and why Polliver and Tickler felt they could attack him.

But I hope they don't do what you're suggesting, that would be stupid and would make them both look bad,

For the record, I don't think he only saved her because she's Sansa's sister. I think he cares about her a lot more than he'd admit - he sees a bit of himself in her - an angry, traumatized child lashing out. They even behave in a similar hostile, grumpy way - no wonder people keep thinking she's his daughter/son.

I also think that the fact (which, I think, hasn't been mentioned in the show?) he had a sister who died young - probably killed by Gregor - figures into his desire to protect little girls and his guilt for not having protected Sansa enough (however irrational it is to think he would have done more against Joffrey without getting his head chopped off). He may have also felt guilty for not saving his sister from Gregor (however irrational it is to think he could have done more against 5 years older Gregor at the time). (No, I'm not saying his feelings for Sansa are 'brotherly' - they're not - but that doesn't mean that his feelings for his sister have nothing to do with his relationships with Sansa and Arya,)

BTW I'm basing this entirely on the books. I haven't even seen all of season 3 yet - I'm waiting till I finish ADWD, since I realized they put things from later books in S3.

Good point. Unlike the books, Sandor hasn't heard about Sansa'a marriage yet, neither has Arya for that matter.

What do you mean, unlike the books? In the book, Sandor and Arya first hear about the marriage after the Purple wedding and Sansa's escape. they're told by Gregor's men in the inn, which makes Sandor drink two flagons of wine at once.

I think people tend to overstate the "subtext" because of the lack of Sansa's love interests: the fact remains Sandor left King's Landing the same man he was.

I think the only thing that people tend to overstate is how much of Sansa/Sandor is "subtext". In the books, it's practically "text" on both their sides by the end of ASOS.

And no, Sandor was by no means the same man by the end of ACOK that he was at the end of ACOK that he was at the beginning of AGOT.

The show changed it so that Littefinger - and not Sandor - would reveal it in season 1 ("Cripples, Bastards and Broken Things" episode).

One of the stupidest, most mind-boggling changes the show did. I was wrecking my head why on Earth they would do that - Sandor telling Sansa his story was even used for the Sandor audition and GRRM and his wife have mentioned Rory doing that scene perfectly (there;s a video on Youtube). From what I've heard, it was due to 'production problems', but I can't figure out what kind are those. They seemed to have tried to build more of Sandor/Sansa later on (and it seems that a lot of TV viewers have picked up on it) but I don't think they ever managed to make it nearly what it was in the book. Partly because D&D seemed to suck at trying to adapt those scenes - the deleted S/S scene from season 2 was awful.

[silentwanderer]

What do you mean, unlike the books? In the book, Sandor and Arya first hear about the marriage after the Purple wedding and Sansa's escape. they're told by Gregor's men in the inn, which makes Sandor drink two flagons of wine at once.

In the books, Jaime & Brienne reach King's Landing after the Purple Wedding and Sandor & Arya learned about Sansa right before she kills her first man.

In the Mysha episode from season 3, the pairings reach King's Landing and kill a man long before they respectively did on the book: Sandor and Arya should've known about Sansa's wedding already.

[Le Cygne]

It sounded more like a lot of BS she was making herself believe because she needed someone to blame, than like something she really believed.

This is so true. He was sobbing about what Sansa was going through, after bringing her up a dozen times, so I think it sunk into Arya's thick noggin that he really cared about Sansa. She wasn't holding Mycah against him anymore, she tipped her hand about that the night before.

She was making other reasons up to leave, because she needed to. Her stated reasons for leaving were you shouldn't have saved my life imperfectly, and you should have done the impossible and saved my mother. He's a safe person to blame. Kind of says a lot right there.

The fight in the inn was about Sandor hearing of Sansa's marriage, that's why he got so drunk and why Polliver and Tickler felt they could attack him.

Totally, he has to sit on the bench because he's literally floored by the news. They won't show us this because it would be too good. Too many people want to see it. Who'd have ever thought they'd make the Hound asexual. At least give the man a roll with prostitute.

He doesn't even remember their dead sibling (extra feature) and she was only ever mentioned once in the books when someone else was talking about Gregor. The important point the books makes is Sansa is the one who sparked the change in him, he wasn't like this before.

[Le Cygne]

So your saying the Hound won't be on for one season? What do you mean final season?

He doesn't have to be off the show. But I think there are signs he will be, perhaps for good.

Just for a comparison...

Books, Sansa is in three chapters in book 4, and she thinks about Sandor often, just as she has in every chapter but one since the series began, but now those thoughts are about kissing and sex. The books also seem to be setting up a Sandor - Littlefinger conflict, in her last chapter she thinks of "another kiss" with Sandor and then Littlefinger asks for "another kiss". Sandor is in one chapter in book 4, as the gravedigger, and they could also fill in the part where he's found and brought to the Quiet Isle (fill in his off screen stuff like they did for Theon). And then there's the Sansa and the Hound remark that Brienne made to Jaime in his last chapter, keeping that association alive in the story.

Show, they seem to have dropped most of his story. He doesn't even seem to have his helm with him.

BTW, sorry to sound discouraging, I really wanted to see the story play out on the show, too.

[Annara Snow]

In the books, Jaime & Brienne reach King's Landing after the Purple Wedding and Sandor & Arya learned about Sansa right before she kills her first man.

In the Mysha episode from season 3, the pairings reach King's Landing and kill a man long before they respectively did on the book: Sandor and Arya should've known about Sansa's wedding already.

Did you read the book too long ago and forgot what happens in it? In the books, Arya killed her first man (or rather, boy) in self-defense in King's Landing - she did in the show, too, but they made it look like an accident, while in the book it was clear she intended it; and she murdered the guard while escaping Harenthal. She was a killer long before her road trip with Sandor.

In ASOS, Sandor and Arya learned about Sansa's marriage from Gregor's men in the inn where the fateful fight happened. As mentioned above, it made him sit on the bench - and drink two cups of wine at once, getting so drunk that Polliver and Tickler thought it safe to attack him.

“King Joffrey’s dead, you know,” he added.

“Poisoned at his own wedding feast.” Arya edged farther into

the room. Joffrey’s dead. She could almost see him, with his

blond curls and his mean smile and his fat soft lips. Jofftey’s

dead! She knew it ought to make her happy, but somehow

she still felt empty inside. Joffrey was dead, but if Robb was

dead too, what did it matter?

“So much for my brave brothers of the Kingsguard.” The

Hound gave a snort of contempt.

“Who killed him?”

“The Imp, it’s thought. Him and his little wife.”

“What wife?”

“I forgot, you’ve been hiding under a rock. The northern girl.

Winterfell’s daughter. We heard she killed the king with a

spell, and afterward changed into a wolf with big leather

wings like a bat, and flew out a tower window. But she left the

dwarf behind and Cersei means to have his head.”

That’s stupid, Arya thought. Sansa only knows songs, not

spells, and she’d never marry the Imp.

The Hound sat on the bench closest the door. His mouth

twitched, but only the burned side.

“She ought to dip him in wildfire and cook him. Or tickle him

till the moon turns black.” He raised his wine cup and drained

it straightaway.

He’s one of them, Arya thought when she saw that. She bit her lip so hard she tasted blood.

He’s just like they are. I should kill him when he sleeps.

“So Gregor took Harrenhal?” Sandor said.

“Didn’t require much taking,” said Polliver. “The sellswords

fled as soon as they knew we were coming, al but a few. One

of the cooks opened a postern gate for us, to get back at

Hoat for cutting off his foot.” He chuckled. “We kept him to

cook for us, a couple wenches to warm our beds, and put all

the rest to the sword.”

“All the rest?” Arya blurted out.

“Well, Ser kept Hoat to pass the time.”

Sandor said, “The Blackfish is still in Riverrun?”

“Not for long,” said Polliver. “He’s under siege. Old Frey’s

going to hang Edmure Tully unless he yields the castle. The

only real fighting’s around Raventree. Blackwoods and

Brackens. The Brackens are ours now.”

The Hound poured a cup of wine for Arya and another for

himself, and drank it down while staring at the hearthfire.

“The little bird flew away, did she? Well, bloody good for her.

She shit on the Imp’s head and flew off.”

“They’ll find her,” said Polliver. “If it takes half the gold in

Casterly Rock.”

“A pretty girl, I hear,” said the Tickler. “Honey sweet.” He

smacked his lips and smiled.

“And courteous,” the Hound agreed. “A proper little lady. Not

like her bloody sister.”

“They found her too,” said Polliver. “The sister. She’s for

Bolton’s bastard, I hear.” Arya sipped her wine so they could

not see her mouth. She didn’t understand what Polliver was

talking about. Sansa has no other sister. Sandor Clegane

laughed aloud.

[Annara Snow]

Show, they seem to have dropped most of his story. He doesn't even seem to have his helm with him.

How are they going to do the "Butcher of Saltpans" storyline without his helm? Unless they're going to drop that, too. But (spoiler about a recurring character on the show)

we know Rorge is coming back in season 4.

[Le Cygne]

How are they going to do the "Butcher of Saltpans" storyline without his helm? Unless they're going to drop that, too.

I know, that's one of the things that makes me think they may just kill Sandor off this season. He's a throwaway character on the show, Arya needed someone to play off, and he's the latest. He's a prop for Ayra's story and Sansa is a prop for Tyrion's story. So "star needs a prop" rather than proper storytelling. And now it seems like Arya means more to Sandor than Sansa, and Tyrion/Shae mean more to Sansa than Sandor, which is just bizarre.

Also meant to agree with you about the deleted scene, that was really bad. In the books, he protected her from Boros and she said why do you let them call you a dog, why won't you let anyone (even me!) call you a knight. He was her knight in the books. In the show, Tyrion "rescues" her from the Hound, and she was upset about Cersei, that was one of their most important scenes, and it wasn't about them at all (and didn't even air).

[1234567]

I also think it is a possibility that they may kill Sandor off in the show. They have cut Sandor down to a minor side character, even Bronn, who is a minor side character in the books, has more characterisation than him. JF said that this season will really deviate from the books and I think future storylines will as well. Sansa will continue to just be a prop for Littlefinger's storyline etc.

Sadly I think it maybe unlikely they will have Sandor around past this season.

[Karmarni]

... but I don't think they ever managed to make it nearly what it was in the book. Partly because D&D seemed to suck at trying to adapt those scenes - the deleted S/S scene from season 2 was awful.

I agree, the showrunners do not seem interested in having Sansa wish for the Hound. He barely played a part in her story line, unlike the "knightly" Tyrion who came to save her in that terrible deleted scene and the loyal Shae who she's best of friends with.

It seems the show has no sympathy for Sandor Clegane. He's just a "slash and burn" guy according to McCann recently. He's one of the most interesting characters in the books and on the show he's a one-dimensional killer.

Hard to believe that the future of the Gravedigger is at stake on the show. They gave so much wonderful time to the glorious sex god Pod and the mutilation and terror of Theon, both of which were so over-the-top that the showrunners should be ashamed, in my opinion.

But no ability to bring out the nuance of Sandor Clegane and his interactions with the Stark sisters and how they end up bookending his character. Arya leaving him for dead and not killing him and Sansa thinking of the unkiss and all he left her was a bloody cloak, these interactions provide such a wonderful opportunity that GRRM will hopefully explore in the final books.

Will we get that on the show? The signs seem to be there that we will not. A shame because McCann seems capable of more in the role and D&D did not seem capable of giving him any creative muscle.

[Annara Snow]

Apparently, the sit-down between GRRM and D&D where he told them all the intricate details of what happens in the future books, happened after season 3 had already gone into production. Before that, they only knew the major beats. So, nothing in season 3, or before, is really indicative of where the books are going, apart from the major storylines (I'm guessing they knew who would win the Throne, which major characters die, what happens to Dany and her dragons and Jon and the Others etc.).

The question is, how much do they even want to be faithful to the books now GRRM sounded a little peeved in his recent interview where he said he thinks of the show as theirs (Benioff and Weiss') while the books are his, said he thought it was a mistake to have Marillion lose his tongue, thereby removing him from the future storyline, and revealed that the showrunners' decision to cut two characters is going to create a "butterfly effect" since they are going to play important roles in future books - character names under spoiler cut.

He was referring to Willas and Garlan Tyrell, Loras' and Margaery's elder brothers.

[Le Cygne]

Sansa will continue to just be a prop for Littlefinger's storyline etc.

That's all she'll be next season, true. It's interesting that other popular shows are going there with stories like this. They missed the boat.

I meant to add this, it also bothers me that the dying scene won't be Sandor sobbing about what the Lannisters did to Sansa, that she was beaten and forced to marry Tyrion. Sandor was the one who remembered, and cared. That's really needed in the story.

[Karmarni]

I doubt Sandor will even cry. They took the remorse out of his character. If he didn't care about Sansa, only speaks of her once, she never speaks of him, then we're left with "Sorry about the butcher's boy (or your mom, or Robb)." But it isn't the building of anything with Sansa, and she was who actually tore him up in the books. Though his interactions with Arya were revealing of his true character, it was his motivations and feelings about Sansa that were the most interesting.

[1234567]

The show may even take a completely different path to the books. They are moving further and further away from the source material each season. The importance of the adult entertainer scenes over plot is rising each season and the concentration on fan favourites at the expense of other characters and their storylines. To be honest I see it going the way of Tru Blood where it was once based on the books but eventually moves so far away from the actual written material that it is a different entity with characters that share the same name.

[Annara Snow]

The show may even take a completely different path to the books. They are moving further and further away from the source material each season. The importance of the adult entertainer scenes over plot is rising each season and the concentration on fan favourites at the expense of other characters and their storylines. To be honest I see it going the way of Tru Blood where it was once based on the books but eventually moves so far away from the actual written material that it is a different entity with characters that share the same name.

There is a big difference: Charlaine Harris does not work on True Blood, does not write an episode per season and is not required to give her approval of the storylines on the show, as far as I know, and they're not trying to include her in conventions etc. and to maintain the appearance that they're sticking to her 'vision'.

This may have a lot to do with the fact that, in terms of reputation, Alan Ball (American Beauty, Six Feet Under) >>>> Charlaine Harris, while Benioff & Weiss <<<<<<<< George R.R. Martin.

[Le Cygne]

I don't think he'll cry, either. He laughed at her in the Beric vs. Hound scene. How do they take a scene where he's crying and telling her to kill him, and replace it with a laugh. I guess the same way they replaced a bunch of little bird/kissing references with nothing.

I think they can do whatever they want with the show...

"The novels are novels, the TV series is the TV series. They're two different beasts... ultimately that's their baby and the books are my baby... I don't have any veto power. I signed a pretty standard contract where I gave them the rights to adapt this into a television series, and I got certain titles, and the agreement I'd write one script a year, and a large dump truck full of money. And they can have the aliens come down next season, they can turn the whole cast into vampires, and I'm powerless to stop them. But I don't think they will do that... If you are J.K. Rowling, you can go into a situation where every studio in Hollywood wants you and you can set very stringent terms where you get to approve everything. But if you' re not J.K. Rowling, and virtually nobody is J.K. Rowling except J.K. Rowling, then you can't do that."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTTW8M_etko