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[Book Spoilers] The Ripple Effect

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But the point is, it is a HUGE difference with Jaime having Sansa well within his grasp. They need something to show that he is taking the oath to Catelyn seriously.

The thing with that is though... Who is Jaime going to send her back to? Her parents and siblings are all dead (or at least believed to be dead), is he going to send Sansa to the Eyrie to Lysa Arryn? I guess that's a possibility... At least, that's what he could suggest to Tywin. I believe that there is no way any of the other Lannisters will even consider the idea of sending Sansa away (except for, ironically, Tyrion, because he generally cares about her well being) and that this will lead to Jaime clashing with both Tywin and even Cersei. As of right now, Cersei and Jaime could continue gettin it on, there's no real reason for them to grow apart until either Joffrey or Tywin dies.

It's too bad Jaime got back so soon. The scene where he returns and they fuck on the altar in front of Joffrey's corpse was really evocative.

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Jaime aks Sansa to be smuggled out of KL with Brienne, Sansa has already struck a deal with LF and refuses since she doesn't trust a Lannister (Jaime is hurt but understands), PW hapens, Sansa disappears, Jaime thinks she is in danger since he has no idea what happened, he sends Brienne, all is well.

Damn, that was succinct. And I can't argue with the logic. I think we have a winner!

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my bad, i knew that, just a typo. i wonder if they'll have wylis in the mix somewhere, or if they'll have the scene where Wyman Manderly "executes" Davos. I would love to see Davos go to Skagos. Davos even hinted at it... "You need me to go convince this Lord and that Lord to fight for you"

Yeah, I think the thing Davos was hinting at was the show's (randomly inserted) reasoning for Davos to go to White Harbor next season.

ETA: Regarding Jaime:

I think there are plenty of options because, ta-da!, this is a huge plot hole and deviation. Regardless of how they do it, they need to stress that Jaime and Brienne are intent on getting Sansa back to her family--and I think that means Lysa Tully Arryn (ironically, where she goes anyway).

ETA2: I agree that it was too soon for Jaime to come back. It was one arc that they could have cut from the finale (to give other scenes more time and dedication) and set to place next season.

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But the point is, it is a HUGE difference with Jaime having Sansa well within his grasp. They need something to show that he is taking the oath to Catelyn seriously.

This is why I think he will help get Sansa out of KL and going north. It's the next best thing, since he can't deliver her to her parents.

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I admit up front I am not the most careful reader....but couldn't they just switch the sisters? Have Brienne out looking for Arya? The main point is to have Cat mad at Brienne to advance the plot. Am I missing something obvious?

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I admit up front I am not the most careful reader....but couldn't they just switch the sisters? Have Brienne out looking for Arya? The main point is to have Cat mad at Brienne to advance the plot. Am I missing something obvious?

Yes, and that is a good idea. But I am more concerned about the effects on Jaime.

For Jaime's redemption arc to work, we need to see that he is able to take oaths seriously--which happens in the books. But now that have the tough decision (that they got themselves into) on how to have Jaime appear loyal to his oath to Cat, while Sansa is still in King's Landing. Under his oath, she should be escorted to the Vale to be with Lysa Tully Arryn, or possibly (if she prefers) to Casterly Rock with Edmure as a honored guest until Edmure's release. This decision was avoided in the books because Sansa had disappeared with Littlefinger by the time Jaime was in the city.

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Yes, and that is a good idea. But I am more concerned about the effects on Jaime.

For Jaime's redemption arc to work, we need to see that he is able to take oaths seriously--which happens in the books. But now that have the tough decision (that they got themselves into) on how to have Jaime appear loyal to his oath to Cat, while Sansa is still in King's Landing. Under his oath, she should be escorted to the Vale to be with Lysa Tully Arryn, or possibly (if she prefers) to Casterly Rock with Edmure as a honored guest until Edmure's release. This decision was avoided in the books because Sansa had disappeared with Littlefinger by the time Jaime was in the city.

This. It changes everything. In the books Jaime is not in a position to do anything because he gets there to late, but for Jaime to decide to do nothing, regardless of the fact Sansa is married to Tyrion she's clearly been coerced into that marriage, it's a big deal. They made a point a few episodes ago that he takes his vow to Cat very seriously, and Sansa could go somewhere else. So they need to have him at least trying. Also, it really wouldn't be in character for Brienne to just do nothing.

I can't see Jaime sending Brienne to look for Arya, it wouldn't make sense. In the books he sends Brienne after Sansa because she's wanted for murder and Cersei's people are after her, and they know Sansa is on the run. Arya has disappeared for like what, a year, more? The quest Brienne was sent on in the books felt like a lost cause, to look for Arya would be totally pointless.

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5*) Ygritte's one-on-one with Jon -- While Jon is attempting to return to Castle Black ahorse, Ygritte (somehow) catches up on foot. After they have a brief romantic departure/discussion, Ygritte hits Jon with at least three arrows as he rides away, proving that he knew nothing.
  • In the book, Jon does not talk to Ygritte after the events outside of Queenscrown until she dies during the attack on Castle Black from the South. In this, they have a touching conversation where they are both not hurt emotionally over Jon's switch, but still very much in love. She dies in his arms.
  • Earlier, we had Tormund's force killed off by Jon and the direwolves (Shaggydog and ((Bran))Summer). All that seemed left was Tormund and Ygritte. I think that this means they will not attack the Wall from the South, but instead make their way back to Mance to join with the main attack--which makes sense since we need Tormund to be North of the Wall. This could mean that this was the last time Jon and Ygritte get to talk before her death.

I don't think the entire Tormund's force has been killed by the direwolves. The way I see it, only a handful of his men (and Ygritte) actually followed the old man in the horse-chase. Remember, the wildlings did not have horses with them, until they encountered the old man and he probably did not have enough horses for all Tormund's men. So I guess only a handful actually followed him, out of those Tormund and Ygritte survived, but there will still be men joining them - those who didnt get horses and could not chase the old man. I don't know, if he has enough to attack Castle Black, maybe if it was a surprise, but I guess the element of surprise is lost with Jon reaching CB.

And why everyone thinks that Ygritte followed Jon on foot? Did anything happen to the horses that the wildlings taken from the old man? I might have to watch episode 9 again, but I think it is plausible that she had a horse. Furthermore, in the scene with Jon and Ygritte there is a distinct sound of a horse neighing (not sure about this word, English is not my first language), but when the camera shows Jon's horse he is peacefully grazing grass, so it does not seem like he made the sound. To me it seems that Ygritte left her horse behind the little hill and sneaked closer to Jon on foot.

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I don't think the entire Tormund's force has been killed by the direwolves. The way I see it, only a handful of his men (and Ygritte) actually followed the old man in the horse-chase. Remember, the wildlings did not have horses with them, until they encountered the old man and he probably did not have enough horses for all Tormund's men. So I guess only a handful actually followed him, out of those Tormund and Ygritte survived, but there will still be men joining them - those who didnt get horses and could not chase the old man. I don't know, if he has enough to attack Castle Black, maybe if it was a surprise, but I guess the element of surprise is lost with Jon reaching CB.

And why everyone thinks that Ygritte followed Jon on foot? Did anything happen to the horses that the wildlings taken from the old man? I might have to watch episode 9 again, but I think it is plausible that she had a horse. Furthermore, in the scene with Jon and Ygritte there is a distinct sound of a horse neighing (not sure about this word, English is not my first language), but when the camera shows Jon's horse he is peacefully grazing grass, so it does not seem like he made the sound. To me it seems that Ygritte left her horse behind the little hill and sneaked closer to Jon on foot.

yeah I gotta agree with all of this! I think the wildlings till got some back up, maybe even another group could join them later, but im not getting my hopes up that they will have the battle at CB in the show at all. and as soon as I saw Ygritte I was like "oh she must have taken a horse" I think people forget sometimes about stuff like that, and yeah im sure she stopped her horse off further away so she could sneak up on him

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Could the Reek rescue be setting up Reek's betrayal of the Ironborn, rather than having it at Moat Caillain?

They rescue Reek, then he betrays them Stunningly, with Asha narrowly escaping back in time for the Kingsmoot?

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Yara vs. Bolton

In the books, Yara is already in the North. The only difference here is that she'll have a different purpose. Honestly, the only thing I think will change is that I don't believe we'll get a big story arc with the Iron Islanders. D & D have already spoken of how difficult it will be after season 4 if they try to fit in all of the plots they have while adding in Dorne and the iron islanders. I'm thinking that the iron islands sub plot won't make an appearance at all and instead, we'll see Yara and the iron islanders attempting to free Theon.

Stannis and the Wall

Nothing changes here. Mance will attack the wall, Jon will help defend it, get arrested by Thorn and Slint, be forced to treat with Mance and then Stannis will swoop in and defeat the wildling army. There's too much good drama with Janos Slint in Jon's story to cut it out.

Jon's return to the Castle Black

In the book, nothing much was made of Jon's supposed betrayal of the nights watch until after the battle. I think the same thing will happen in the show.

Ygritte's one-on-one with Jon

This was just to close out their arc this season. Jon likely won't see her again until she's lying there dying of her wounds after the battle.

Jaime's early arrival at King's Landing

Nothing changes here either. Jaime swore an oath to return Sansa to Catelyn. With Catelyn being dead, he doesn't have an oath anymore at all. We may get a scene or two with him making sure Sansa is ok, but he won't try to set her free. I think Brienne will leave after discovering the fate of Catelyn. After the PW, Jaime will summon her and tell her that they were not able to fulfill their vow, but they can still try to keep Sansa safe. He'll give Brienne Oathkeeper and send her on her quest.

Balon and the Kingsmoot

As I said before, I think Balon will die before the PW, but I truly believe that the Kings Moot and most of the rest of the Iron Islands story will be scrapped. They may introduce Euron as the new lord of the Iron Islands and then have him sail to Slavers Bay himself (if that subplot actually goes any where in the books), but I don't think this arc will get much screen time. As far as Yara goes, I think her plot will surround Theon.

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Jaime's early arrival at King's Landing

Nothing changes here either. Jaime swore and oath to return Sansa to Catelyn. With Catelyn being dead, he doesn't have an oath anymore at all. We may get a scene or two with him making sure Sansa is ok, but we he won't try to set her free. I think Brienne will leave after discovering the fate of Catelyn. After the PW, Jaime will summon her and tell her that they were not able to fulfill their vow, but they can still try to keep Sansa safe. He'll give Brienne Oathkeeper and send her on her quest.

If she left, and to go where anyway, but if she leaves how does he "summon her"? Also, the whole point of that storyline was that Jaime felt compelled to keep his vow to Catelyn even though she had died. If he brushes it off "oh well, she's dead!" how's that storyline going to have the same impact, and most importantly how is Jaime's arc to attempt to be a changed man even going to work?

I know they're changing stuff around, but at least it needs to be logical.

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on yara.....

i think once Balon dies, and the CE claims the SSC, she is forced to return.. (perhaps also suffering a crippling defeat forcing her to temporarily suspend her rescue of Theon. This bit about her going to save him helps build up her character as the one caring Iron Islander. things can go back to normal after that.

Also, I dont know if anyone caught her nav plan, but she wanted to sail up the NS to the Dreadfort..... that is a LONG trip. they could pretty much take the whole season getting her around the continent (maybe a stop off in Sunspear.... i hope i hope) in order to show more Westeros, then just send her back in time for a season finale Kingsmoot setup.

On Gendry.... he doesnt go to KL, or he does, but doesnt stay. he leaves north again and wind up at the Inn making weapons for kids.

Jamie.... his honor is being restored yes.... but show Jamie and book Jamie are close enough.... i dont think either one of them is any more than of average intelligence. He could be convinced (by Tywin, or Cersi, or LF, or even Tyrion) that Arya is also dead and if his goal is to save the life of Sansa, he is best to leave her with Tyrion.

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If she left, and to go where anyway, but if she leaves how does he "summon her"? Also, the whole point of that storyline was that Jaime felt compelled to keep his vow to Catelyn even though she had died. If he brushes it off "oh well, she's dead!" how's that storyline going to have the same impact, and most importantly how is Jaime's arc to attempt to be a changed man even going to work?

I know they're changing stuff around, but at least it needs to be logical.

"Leaving" doesn't mean "left the city". I think she'll leave, and later, Podrick (whom will likely be sent with her from the beginning), will find her on Jaime's behalf in a wine sink or something acting all depressed. Also, the "changed man" arc is still there because instead of leaving a missing Sansa to what ever befalls her, he sends Brienne to find and protect her. Even after Cersei insists that she had a hand in Joffrey's death.

I don't think that him arriving at KLing early creates any problems what so ever, but if you HAVE to have some sort of "promise fulfilled" aspect, they could always do this....

- Have Dontos show up and tell Sansa that he's going to get her out of Kings Landing after Joffrey's wedding.

- Then have Jaime go to Sansa and have him tell her of his promise and ask her if there's anything he can do to help her. She refuses because first, she has Dontos and second, because she doesn't trust Jaime (he is a Lannister, after all).

There you go, Jaime attempts to help Sansa, she refuses and then when she goes missing, he sends Brienne to find and protect her.

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yeah I gotta agree with all of this! I think the wildlings till got some back up, maybe even another group could join them later, but im not getting my hopes up that they will have the battle at CB in the show at all. and as soon as I saw Ygritte I was like "oh she must have taken a horse" I think people forget sometimes about stuff like that, and yeah im sure she stopped her horse off further away so she could sneak up on him

I rewatched the parts of episode 9 with the wildlings. The old man had 8 horses, the wildlings actually say it in the scene. He took one of them, which means that only 7 wildlings could chase him. There are 7 (including Jon) in the later scene at the Queenscrown, so the math works here. Only 4 of them die - Jon kills Orell and another, the wolves kill one each. Looking at the previous scenes in episode 7 and 9, Tormund had at least 20 wildlings with him if not more, so loosing 4 is not such a big deal probably.

Also, when Jon escapes form the Queenscrown, it is clear that he leaves some horses behind. Tormund and Ygritte therefore have horses available for the chase. The mystery is, why Ygritte is alone when she catches Jon, but maybe Tormund went to rally his men and sent Ygritte to hunt Jon, who knows? However, I am quite confident that Ygritte has a horse, it is just not visible in the scene. There are clear horse sounds, and it does not seem like Jon's horse is doing them, because he is very busy with the grass around.

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I just don't even know why jamie and Brienne even needed to be back in KL so early, it was not for anything other than a "naw" moment which basically now necessitates a change in the plot that wasn't needed if they just had a scene of them moving away from harrenhall, or even moving past riverrun with dialogue getting them closer to KL and reacting to the RW it would have sewn some interesting plot points for them for next year.

I'm just...meh with episode ten, it didn't hit any of the beats i personally wanted it too, i watched it 3 times and each time i was more put off.

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Why does Asha have to be at the Kingsmoot?

Why do they need a kings moot at all? Honestly, the Iron Islands subplot kind of sucked in the books. I can't imagine non-book readers will enjoy time being wasted on it. I really do hope they scrap it. The show is already convoluted enough with the arcs they're currently running and they'll need to add in Dorne eventually.

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