[Book Spoilers] The Ripple Effect

[Zorpack]

Better yet: How would any of the girls be of any import now that Rickon is on his way to the Umbers?

The whole plot was based on the fact there's no male heir to Winterfell: Its why Ramsay was married to "Arya" and its why Tywin married Tyrion to Sansa.

But now there IS a male heir and Rickon's claim is more important than any of his sisters's husbands.

On the show, Rickon is both the key to the north and the heir of Winterfell.

Good point. But isn't Rickon still potential heir in the books as well? I mean, on the show they send him to the Umbers but I can't remember where they send him in the books? Do you remember? Either way, wherever they sent him in the books, we don't know whether he made it or not, if he is still alive, basically nothing. I am re-reading now so I will eventually come to it.

My mom and I read the books together and she still always says "I wanna know what happened to Rickon" "and where is Rickon?". She totally thinks he is of huge importance to whatever is bound to happen. She may be right.

[7V3N]

Good point. But isn't Rickon still potential heir in the books as well? I mean, on the show they send him to the Umbers but I can't remember where they send him in the books? Do you remember? Either way, wherever they sent him in the books, we don't know whether he made it or not, if he is still alive, basically nothing. I am re-reading now so I will eventually come to it.

My mom and I read the books together and she still always says "I wanna know what happened to Rickon" "and where is Rickon?". She totally thinks he is of huge importance to whatever is bound to happen. She may be right.

When Sam is on the boat from Eastwatch, he recalls seeing (my memory is a tad fuzzy) ships or a ship along what (I don't know if it is explicitly said) Skagos. That, plus the Theon's mute squire saying he knows where they went, and Davos fears the place. We know it is not North of the Wall, and he is not in the hands of the Northmen. That leaves Skagos.

[Zorpack]

where we find out that his mother is Cersei. His mother had yellow hair and was a "tavern wench"-her favorite disguise to meet Jaime just throwing that out there. She did not want a son of Roberts to be an heir to the IT better send Shireen to teach him to read

Haha i like this, Nice twist.

[Zorpack]

When Sam is on the boat from Eastwatch, he recalls seeing (my memory is a tad fuzzy) ships or a ship along what (I don't know if it is explicitly said) Skagos. That, plus the Theon's mute squire saying he knows where they went, and Davos fears the place. We know it is not North of the Wall, and he is not in the hands of the Northmen. That leaves Skagos.

Wow, I totally forgot all of this, or I didn't put the pieces together. What does Theon's squire "say"? Do you remember? Like what played out? I'd like to know if you can remember. Thanks

[I'm_Tim]

Littlefinger will convince Sansa to escape with him before Brienne has a chance to get her and take her to the Vale.

[silentwanderer]

Good point. But isn't Rickon still potential heir in the books as well? I mean, on the show they send him to the Umbers but I can't remember where they send him in the books? Do you remember? Either way, wherever they sent him in the books, we don't know whether he made it or not, if he is still alive, basically nothing. I am re-reading now so I will eventually come to it.

Rickon and Bran are still the heirs to Winterfell on the books as well. Problem is: no one really knows they are there.

As of this season, not only Theon flat out told Ramsay that the Stark boys are alive, but Rickon Stark is on his way to the Umbers so that every northern still loyal to the Starks rally around him rather than any of his sisters.

The show has, effectively, changed the whole game by making Rickon's presence stronger than the books did.

[Wunhopkuendo]

Rickon and Bran are still the heirs to Winterfell on the books as well. Problem is: no one really knows they are there.

As of this season, not only Theon flat out told Ramsay that the Stark boys are alive, but Rickon Stark is on his way to the Umbers so that every northern still loyal to the Starks rally around him rather than any of his sisters.

The show has, effectively, changed the whole game by making Rickon's presence stronger than the books did.

How so? It is effectively the same thing. We know that Ramsey knows they are still alive in the books and the show. I fail to see the difference here.

[Zorpack]

Rickon and Bran are still the heirs to Winterfell on the books as well. Problem is: no one really knows they are there.

As of this season, not only Theon flat out told Ramsay that the Stark boys are alive, but Rickon Stark is on his way to the Umbers so that every northern still loyal to the Starks rally around him rather than any of his sisters.

The show has, effectively, changed the whole game by making Rickon's presence stronger than the books did.

:agree: Although, the way that Osha and Rickon departed in the show, I had an overwhelming feeling that we'd never see them again. Just by the way they walked away looking back to the Queenscrown :(

[ladyinblack]

When Sam is on the boat from Eastwatch, he recalls seeing (my memory is a tad fuzzy) ships or a ship along what (I don't know if it is explicitly said) Skagos. That, plus the Theon's mute squire saying he knows where they went, and Davos fears the place. We know it is not North of the Wall, and he is not in the hands of the Northmen. That leaves Skagos.

Skagos in the books

[silentwanderer]

We know that Ramsey knows they are still alive in the books ...

Ramsay Bolton never knew Rickon and Bran were alive until the show: Theon never told him on the books.

ETA:

Rickon and Bran are still the heirs to Winterfell on the books as well. Problem is: no one really knows they are there.

As of this season, not only Theon flat out told Ramsay that the Stark boys are alive, but Rickon Stark is on his way to the Umbers so that every northern still loyal to the Starks rally around him rather than any of his sisters.

The show has, effectively, changed the whole game by making Rickon's presence stronger than the books did.

:agree: Although, the way that Osha and Rickon departed in the show, I had an overwhelming feeling that we'd never see them again. Just by the way they walked away looking back to the Queenscrown :(

Not only I believe Rickon and Osha will reach the Umbers first thing next season, I think Rickon Stark will be one of the first Lords Ser Davos convinces to help Stannis.

Its all part of the same ripple effect.

[7V3N]

Wow, I totally forgot all of this, or I didn't put the pieces together. What does Theon's squire "say"? Do you remember? Like what played out? I'd like to know if you can remember. Thanks

IIRC, they have a map of the North and say that he knows where their Lord of Winterfell is. Wex throws a knife or an axe, in ironborn fashion, onto the map, and Davos has a pretty grim reaction.

[7V3N]

Ramsay Bolton never knew Rickon and Bran were alive until the show: Theon never told him on the books.

Not only I'm thinking they will reach the Umbers first thing next season, I think Rickon Stark will be one of the first Lords Ser Davos convinces to help Stannis.

He was the one who inspired Theon's trick with the miller's boys, under the guise of Reek. In the show, Theon is the only one who knows (besides his ironborn men, who may have told Ramsay).

I strongly believe the whole "Davos recruits an army" is simply a plot tool the show is using the place Davos is White Harbor so we can start our "North Remembers" bit.

[silentwanderer]

He was the one who inspired Theon's trick with the miller's boys, under the guise of Reek.

Because he assumed they were dead, but they would never find the bodies (he's still hunting wolves because of it.).

On the show, Ramsay is certain the Stark boys are very much alive because Theon told him so.

[Wunhopkuendo]

Because he assumed they were dead, but they would never find the bodies (he's still hunting wolves because of it.).

On the show, Ramsay is certain the Stark boys are very much alive because Theon told him so.

Again, there's no difference here. Ramsay knew in the books that the kids were not killed, but probably assumed that a cripple and a very young toddler wouldn't survive. Same as the show.

[7V3N]

Because he assumed they were dead, but they would never find the bodies (he's still hunting wolves because of it.).

On the show, Ramsay is certain the Stark boys are very much alive because Theon told him so.

No. In the books he knows they escaped. He knows they are alive. He kept this a secret to allow Theon's ruse to 1) Keep the Boltons innocent in the story, and 2) So that only the Boltons are out searching for Bran and Rickon. They are in the crypts when Theon takes Reek, the Walders, and whomever else, out to search for them. Reek shows Theon the wolf pin, which spawns the idea that they fake the deaths of Bran and Rickon to (for Theon) prove his authority. Ramsay definitely knew that Bran and Rickon were alive.

In the show, we can simply write it off to Ramsay learning from torturing Theon, since we never had the Ramsay/Reek bit.

There are no consequential differences between the book and the show concerning Ramsay's knowledge of whether or not Theon actually killed Bran and Rickon.

[silentwanderer]

Again, there's no difference here. Ramsay knew in the books that the kids were not killed, but probably assumed that a cripple and a very young toddler wouldn't survive...

Only thing is, on the show, the young toddler is a 9 year old with the full support of the Umbers, has a Lord Commander of the Night Watch for a brother (by next season) and the loyalty of every northern who doesn't want Lord Bolton as Warden of the North.

Rickon is in a unique position to make a major contribution to the story by virtue of being older.

Not to mention, he's the legitimate son of Ned Stark where Ramsay remains a bastard.

[Our Blades Are Sharp]

Ramsay will Hunt Rickon/Osha across the north. I doubt they make it to the Umbers, I think skagos wil be introduced when they have to find somewhere else to hide

[silentwanderer]

Ramsay will Hunt Rickon/Osha across the north & have to find somewhere else to hide

I wouldn't expect any less from him: Ramsay has to bring war to Rickon Stark if he ever wants to size Winterfell and/or the North for himself.

The Umbers are not going to be the only ones to get caught in the crossfire,

The ripple effect is just starting.

[ladyinblack]

No. In the books he knows they escaped. He knows they are alive. He kept this a secret to allow Theon's ruse to 1) Keep the Boltons innocent in the story, and 2) So that only the Boltons are out searching for Bran and Rickon. They are in the crypts when Theon takes Reek, the Walders, and whomever else, out to search for them. Reek shows Theon the wolf pin, which spawns the idea that they fake the deaths of Bran and Rickon to (for Theon) prove his authority. Ramsay definitely knew that Bran and Rickon were alive.

In the show, we can simply write it off to Ramsay learning from torturing Theon, since we never had the Ramsay/Reek bit.

There are no consequential differences between the book and the show concerning Ramsay's knowledge of whether or not Theon actually killed Bran and Rickon.

you are correct

[The GreatRon]

Awesome idea for a thread as I have been wondering about this since S2 started skewing from the books.

Is there any confirmation anywhere that things in the show not seen in POVs that either reveal events about theories or move the plot in a way that the show is ahead of ADwD are exactly what GRRM has in store in the books? Meaning will the show kind of take on a life of its own like the Walking Dead does and perhaps things we see on screen will still be different in the upcoming books. I mean they have deviated a great deal in a lot of areas. Im just curious.