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[Book Spoilers] The Ripple Effect


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Awesome idea for a thread as I have been wondering about this since S2 started skewing from the books.

Is there any confirmation anywhere that things in the show not seen in POVs that either reveal events about theories or move the plot in a way that the show is ahead of ADwD are exactly what GRRM has in store in the books? Meaning will the show kind of take on a life of its own like the Walking Dead does and perhaps things we see on screen will still be different in the upcoming books. I mean they have deviated a great deal in a lot of areas. Im just curious.

Nope nothing big. People might be able to pull tidbits from interviews though. As far as the Walking Dead vs the comics-- I like both, but understand them as different stories and material. That is sort of what the show is becoming for me, since otherwise I would be a purist nitpicking the hell out of the series.

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I like this thread.

On Sansa, I think that any of the possibilities mentioned above could work. I also see multiple situations arising simultaneously. Here is how I see it: Jaime goes to Tywin and uses the "Lannisters always pay their debts" line. Tywin says there is no debt because Cat is dead. Frustrated, Jaime spends a few episodes trying to get help from Cersei/Tyrion/Varys to no avail. After Sansa spurns his attempt, he sends Brienne to try to convince her as she swears the same vow to she did to Cat. Meanwhile, a depressed Sansa is approached by Dontos. She is of course wary, but wants out of KL so badly that she tentatively plays along. And then maybe Shea also promises to to get her out, when the time is right, thus putting more distance between her and Tyrion as well as leverage against her for Tyrion's trial. So now you have multiple options for Sansa to take, as well as lots of chances to show real growth for her character and wash away all the naivete that has been built up so far. Then the PW happens, no one knows who killed Joffrey, nor how Sansa escapes. Some may think that she had something to do with the murder, now that she is growing more bold with the buildup. So many options.

I mostly like your take on this, particularly the "Lannisters always pay their debts" bit. Could be some great scenes with Jaime and the rest of his clan over this. I would just add that I'd want Sansa's "spurning" of Jaime's offer to occur in a way that shows she simply can't trust a Lannister. Not a scornful spurning but a guarded explanation that King's Landing is her home, etc., a bit like what she said to Littlefinger at the end of season 2. I think it should seem like she's trying to be more discerning, as if she knows that she hasn't always "backed the right horse" in the past and wants to choose right this time.

Anyway, I think that it would work if Jaime covertly asking her if he can help her in some way. It would also work if he decided that she's now a member of the royal family and thus due his protection as a member of the Kingsguard (i.e. she stays in KL because she has no family left to go to, but he's going to look after her, partially because of his oath to Cat and partially to show he's learned from when he didn't help Queen Rhaella when Aerys was raping her). I don't think it'll work if Jaime just shrugs, says "Oh well," and leaves it at that. He might struggle initially with what to do given that Catelyn is dead, but in that case Brienne should tell him that oaths sworn to the dead are the most sacred and after another bit of indecision he should realise that she's right.

Has anyone mentioned the possibility that Brienne might run into/ally with Gendry on her journeys? Maybe he gets off course and ends up in Duskendale to join Brienne. This would make more sense in my opinion, as Gendry has been characterized much more than Pod thus far. Oh, and the show-continuity would be better maintained assuming Tyrion's escape will probably occur near the end of the season. Lastly, it ultimately ties into his return to the brotherhood. Hmmm...

I like this idea very much. Show!Gendry is too interesting to be allowed to fade into long seasons of obscurity.

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My opinion is that Jaime asks Tywin to free Sansa and he is declined. Then up to the PW, Jaime works at getting Brienne free of the murder of Renly, due to Loras' accusations. Finally, by the PW episode ( I hope its episode 4/5. I want to see Tyrion out of a cell, and joff alive for a bit longer) Jaime and Brienne will begin planning to smuggle out Sansa with Brienne. However, when they call the plan into action, Sansa dissapears with LF (and possibly Dontos), causing Jamie to give OathKeeper to Brienne

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My opinion is that Jaime asks Tywin to free Sansa and he is declined. Then up to the PW, Jaime works at getting Brienne free of the murder of Renly, due to Loras' accusations. Finally, by the PW episode ( I hope its episode 4/5. I want to see Tyrion out of a cell, and joff alive for a bit longer) Jaime and Brienne will begin planning to smuggle out Sansa with Brienne. However, when they call the plan into action, Sansa dissapears with LF (and possibly Dontos), causing Jamie to give OathKeeper to Brienne

Again, there are no Loras accusations. He doesn't believe she killed Renly, he spells it out with those exact words in season 2. If Brienne is jailed it must be for another reason. Personally I'm hoping that if she has to be imprisoned, is because she tells Tywin he's an asshole on behalf of Lady Catelyn.

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Maybe they will have Loras accuse her of killing Renly and keep her in a tower cell until after the Purple Wedding?

Even if Loras and Marg thought Brienne killed Renly, I don't think they can make a case of it in King's Landing.

By the time Renly was killed, he was considered an upsurper and rebel, so if anything, the Lannisters would give her a medal, not a trial.

I was surprised to see LF leave so early in the season and always thought he would somehow return, for some reason. Perhaps he has already wed Lysa and comes back for the PW?

We've seen LF's ship leave, but it's possible he's still in KL until after the PW.

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I'd be entirely fine if LF and Lysa get married and honeymoon off screen. That was an awkward sequence to read, let alone watch. :P

I'm curious about how the Gendry / Brienne chemistry would play out if they went adventuring together. They are both kinda quiet, plodding their way through life as best they can. Pod is also a quiet plodder. My concern is that they're too similar as people to be particularly interesting together. You put three nice introverts on a quest together and they'll do a lot of silent hiking. Maybe they should bring Cersei!

Also not sure how they decide to team up: Gendry is mistrustful of highborns; Brienne is mistrustful of men who don't like highborns. Seems like they'd need to meet under circumstances that push them toward trusting each other to decide to adventure together.

Since Jaime is the guy who tried to kill Ned and did kill Ned's right hand man (Jory?), it isn't much of a stretch to think Sansa wouldn't want to have anything to do with him. Also, he's going to come across as very rough to her, as Sandor did, which will alarm her gut instinct.

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The Kingsmoot is important and it is important for Asha/Yara to be there so Theon was the only person with a claim to the Seastone Chair to not be there. Remember the story of the Kingsmoot that was declared unlawful because the King's brother called it but the King's son was not there to particpate? Asha is going to use Theon's absence from the Kingsmoot to invalidate Euron's claim to the Seastone Chair.

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Even if Loras and Marg thought Brienne killed Renly, I don't think they can make a case of it in King's Landing.

By the time Renly was killed, he was considered an upsurper and rebel, so if anything, the Lannisters would give her a medal, not a trial.

We've seen LF's ship leave, but it's possible he's still in KL until after the PW.

I agree. I don't remember how this all went down in the books. Why was Brienne imprisoned in the first place? Didn't Jaime do it to protect her? I always thought it was silly for her to do time over Renly, when Renly was considered a traitor.

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IIRC, they have a map of the North and say that he knows where their Lord of Winterfell is. Wex throws a knife or an axe, in ironborn fashion, onto the map, and Davos has a pretty grim reaction.

awesome.

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The Kingsmoot is important and it is important for Asha/Yara to be there so Theon was the only person with a claim to the Seastone Chair to not be there. Remember the story of the Kingsmoot that was declared unlawful because the King's brother called it but the King's son was not there to particpate? Asha is going to use Theon's absence from the Kingsmoot to invalidate Euron's claim to the Seastone Chair.

You don't really need the kingsmoot for that, though. Yara can still make the claim that Euron usurped the throne from Theon in his absence. Without overly complicating the iron island's politics, Yara and Theon can order Euron to step down if indeed that is how it ends up happening in the books.

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:agree: Although, the way that Osha and Rickon departed in the show, I had an overwhelming feeling that we'd never see them again. Just by the way they walked away looking back to the Queenscrown :(

I think we get Ramsay (w/ Reek) hunting Rickon, Shaggy & Osha. The Dreadfort left poorly guarded, Yara manages to take it with her 50, only to find no Theon. Balon is killed while Yara is holed up at the Dreadfort, Euron seizes the Seastone Chair and Yara becomes a target.

Would Bolton ambitions extend to the Iron Islands? Might Ramsay's lucky bride become Yara Greyjoy, to make their spawn heirs to the North & the Iron Islands?

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I agree. I don't remember how this all went down in the books. Why was Brienne imprisoned in the first place? Didn't Jaime do it to protect her? I always thought it was silly for her to do time over Renly, when Renly was considered a traitor.

In the books, Loras accused Brienne of killing Renly and Jaime asked for her to be placed in the more comfy cells rather than the dungeons.

There was a funny bit about both of them being kingslayers, the shadow man being a joke and Loras's honor.

In the end, Loras and Brienne made peace off camera, after what Jaime said about her sink in.

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I think we get Ramsay (w/ Reek) hunting Rickon, Shaggy & Osha. The Dreadfort left poorly guarded, Yara manages to take it with her 50, only to find no Theon. Balon is killed while Yara is holed up at the Dreadfort, Euron seizes the Seastone Chair and Yara becomes a target.

Would Bolton ambitions extend to the Iron Islands? Might Ramsay's lucky bride become Yara Greyjoy, to make their spawn heirs to the North & the Iron Islands?

Well that sounds like it could certainly pan out. Nice thought!

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Even if Loras doesn't accuse Brienne of Renly's death - Cersei might. I'm pretty sure Cersei will not be happy (understatement) that Brienne showed up with Jaime. Cersei may scheme to have her arrested and imprisoned for treason/or that she was a Stark/Baratheon Loyalist. Of course she is a Lady so she will be imprisoned as they negoitate her release with her father, the Lord of Tarth.

Having her imprisoned immediately as a traitor to the Crown, will ensure she doesn't see Sansa.

I could also see Jaime slipping out of the PW to go talk to Brienne in her cell (maybe because Tywin wants him to break his vow and leave the KG?)- just as the PW happens. Thus, Jaime wasn't present when the PW occurs, so he won't believe Tyrion did it. And this will cause more strife between him and Cersei.

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I think we get Ramsay (w/ Reek) hunting Rickon, Shaggy & Osha. The Dreadfort left poorly guarded, Yara manages to take it with her 50, only to find no Theon. Balon is killed while Yara is holed up at the Dreadfort, Euron seizes the Seastone Chair and Yara becomes a target.

Would Bolton ambitions extend to the Iron Islands? Might Ramsay's lucky bride become Yara Greyjoy, to make their spawn heirs to the North & the Iron Islands?

Huh. I'd never considered that possibility. I can't see that particular departure happening, but you make an interesting case.

Somehow I can't see Asha/Yara being as demure and cooperative as Jeyne Poole though. She'd probably spit on him instead of recite vows underneath the tree and then bite his dick off come the wedding night. (ilu Yara :blushing:)

Plus the sister of Theon Turncloak wouldn't really work for keeping the northerners in line like Ned Stark's Baby Gurl, I guess.

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Why do people think Jaime wouldn't recognize Sansa or Arya? He visited them at Winterfell, travelled with them for a month from Winterfell to Kings Landing, and they all lived in Kings Landing for a while before the war. During that time, Sansa was engaged to Joffrey and Arya drew attention to herself by attacking Joffrey. Further, in the book, Jaime recognized that Jenye was not Arya. Jaime knows what the Stark girls look like in both the TV show and the book.

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Even if Loras doesn't accuse Brienne of Renly's death - Cersei might. I'm pretty sure Cersei will not be happy (understatement) that Brienne showed up with Jaime. Cersei may scheme to have her arrested and imprisoned for treason/or that she was a Stark/Baratheon Loyalist.

Cersei can get her arrested/executed just because Brienne was sworn to Lady Catelyn: they did kill her and Robb for a reason.

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Ramsay is a wild card. In the book he was Theon's Reek when the miller's boys were killed. So he knows that Bran and Rickon are alive in the book and also in the show. I could see Ramsay covering this info up and saying that Theon murdered them so that no one questions him or his dad being the next Lord of Winterfell.

Technically Theon is still a valuable captive, Ramsay does need a good reason to flay/torture him - his murdering the Stark heirs gives him an excuse, to be, well, Ramsay.

And of course Theon will go along with this because Ramsay will torture him if he doesn't.

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That's a really, really interesting idea.

Somehow I can't see Asha/Yara being as demure and cooperative as Jeyne Poole though. She'd probably spit on him instead of recite vows underneath the tree and then bite his dick off come the wedding night. (ilu Yara :blushing:)

I can't see that particular departure happening, but you make an intriguing case.

We've already seen her playing along (ick) with Theon before he knew who she was in S2. Might she be savvy enough to play the long game with Ramsay (a la Margaery) before she gets a chance to murder him and "free" Reek from his mental bondage?

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Cersei is egotistical enough that she would never imagine Jaime having a thing for Brienne. Also, nobody in King's Landing publicly cares about Renly's murder. Renly was an usurper to Joffrey's throne. The Lannisters would have killed him if they could, just as they did Robb Stark. Loras was the only one who cared and that accused Brienne in the books, but the show has changed that, since he thought Stannis was behind it all along.

Brienne being jailed will, if it even happens, be because she is sworn in service to Catelyn Stark--a (dead) traitor.

ETA: Someone beat me to it.

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