Orys Baratheon

[The BlackBear]

The Worldbook apparently is going to explain why the Tullys - who indeed were only a minor house in the Riverlands, not as wealthy or nobly as the Brackens or Blackwoods who once had been kings, ended up becoming Lords of the Riverlands.

I thought it was just because they were the first Riverland house to support the Targs.

[joluoto]

I don't know about being kings, but Elio mentions in another thread that the Tullys were a very minor house in past time, and something happened that made them powerful by Aegon's Conquest that they were chosen as the new river rulers. And that something we'll learn in the World of Ice and Fire.

Well, elevating a Bracken or a Blackwood to Lord Paramont would cause the Riverlands burning for centuries, so there is that.

As for upjumped houses, none strikes me harder than house Whent. Seventh house to hold Harrenhal after AL, couldn't have held the castle for more than 200 years, probably not even close to that much. No one talks about the ancient hold of the Whents, if they even had one at all, and in a matter of a century or two they went from nobodies to lords of the biggest castle in Westeros, to putting a member of the family in the Kingsguard, to absolute ruin again.

Harrenhal does that to you.

[NorthRemembers]

The Worldbook apparently is going to explain why the Tullys - who indeed were only a minor house in the Riverlands, not as wealthy or nobly as the Brackens or Blackwoods who once had been kings, ended up becoming Lords of the Riverlands.

If I may ask, how do we know this is the case?

[The BlackBear]

If I may ask, how do we know this is the case?

Martin did a reading from the Wolrd book. I can't remember exactly what he said but he said the Tullys got the position for their swift support, not for their power.

[The hairy bear]

If I may ask, how do we know this is the case?

Ran writes in another thread:

There are certain historical questions that are raised by the material and at times we have provided possible ways to resolve them, which GRRM then decides on whether he'll keep it or not. As an example, when it became apparent that the Tullys were originally a fairly minor house in origin, we decided some reason had to be given for their prominence by the time that Aegon defeats Harren the Black, explaining why they're the ones at the head of the rebel riverlords rather than, say, a more powerful Blackwood or Bracken. GRRM liked our solution to that, so that's in there.

The fact that the Tullys were the first to join Aegon in rebellion against Harren is already in the books, so it isn't just this. It could be that Lord Tully saved Aegon's or his sisters' life during the war? He lost his sons fighting under the Targaryens? He married her daughter to Aenys or Maegor? (perhaps Tully was awarded the Riverlands to compensate him after Maegor killed her?) There's lot's of possiblities...

But we are going off topic. :unsure:

[Lord Varys]

Yeah, we do, but House Tullys relative weakness is actually a recurring topic in the post-Conquest history of Westeros. They were named the Lords of the Riverlands, yes, but unlike the Tyrells they never got the royal seat of the Riverlands, Harrenhal, and Riverrun itself never was a royal seat. This made the house who held Harrenhal always a sort of rival seat to Riverrun. I'm pretty sure that whichever house got Harrenhal from the Targaryens had a better standing with the Crown than any other house in the Riverlands at this time, including the Tullys.

Then we see how new houses like the Butterwells climb the social ladder very quickly. De iure they remained bannermen of Riverrun, but de facto they were richer, more influential, and more powerful than the Tullys of their era.

And in the end we see that Hoster Tully fails to get his bannermen behind during the Rebellion. Yes, Robert and Jon Arryn also had to with some Targaryen loyalists, but the Riverlords were split up between Robert and Rhaegar.

[NorthRemembers]

Thanks for the clarification. I really can not wait for the world book.

[joluoto]

Yeah, we do, but House Tullys relative weakness is actually a recurring topic in the pre-Conquest history of Westeros. They were named the Lords of the Riverlands, yes, but unlike the Tyrells they never got the royal seat of the Riverlands, Harrenhal, and Riverrun itself never was royal seat. This made the house who held Harrenhal always a sort of rival seat to Riverrun. I'm pretty sure that whichever house got Harrenhal from the Targaryens had a better standing with the Crown than any other house in the Riverlands at this time, including the Tullys.

Considering Harrenhal was given to the Valyrian House of Qoherys, we can see why Harrenhal did not become the seat for the Riverlands. The Riverlanders had fought oppression by foreign rulers, so giving the Riverlands to a foreigner would have been a mistake.

[The hairy bear]

Discovering who the first Lord Qoherys is one of the things I'm eager to find in the World Book. The Citadel says he was a "battle companion" of Aegon, and I'd venture that he was relatively lowborn within the Valyrian people, since he took the skulls of the dead Hoares in Harrenhal as his sigil (no one would change a prestiguous banner with a long tradition). So, I'd guess, House Qoherys would be even more minor than the Tullys.

Another thing I'm wondering is whether the Tullys owned Riverrun during the Conquest. It seems a very strategic location for a minor house.

[joluoto]

Back to Orys... it does seem like he was.... a SECRET TARGARYEN!!!

[Eli Stark]

Is Orys Baratheon a similar case to Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella in the sense that he's the alleged son of a cuckold named Baratheon and his actual father is someone else (Aerion Targaryen)?

Or was he recognised by Aerion Targaryen as his bastard son and was given the name Baratheon for some reason?

Will we get an explanation? I would really like to read about Orys Baratheon, what he looked like and his origins. Was he black of hair or that's a trait which comes from the Durrendons?

Thanks.

.

He looked like a Baratheon, because the seed is strong. One day, when all blood lines have been mingled, all the world will look like Baratheons. The seed is strong. It is known.

[joluoto]

.

He looked like a Baratheon, because the seed is strong. One day, when all blood lines have been mingled, all the world will look like Baratheons. The seed is strong. It is known.

As I have undersood, the Baratheon traits came from the Durrendons.

[Don Roberto]

As I have undersood, the Baratheon traits came from the Durrendons.

No, the Baratheon line only mixed with the Durrendons when Orys married the Storm Queen, but Ned reads in the first book that Orys himself had black hair.

[Fat Mac]

It would be cool if Orys brought the black hair and the Durrendon's brought the piercing blue eyes that make the Baratheon look so famous. That way their two main traits come from both sides.

[Toccs]

No, the Baratheon line only mixed with the Durrendons when Orys married the Storm Queen, but Ned reads in the first book that Orys himself had black hair.

Different Orys, the one Ned reads about is from much more recently.

[Lord Varys]

The line about Orys Baratheon being black of hair is solely from the TV series. The books do not include such a line.

Durran Godsgrief, the first Storm King, supposedly married the daughter of two gods. It is much more likely that the Baratheon look came from her instead of Orys Baratheon. Especially since Orys may have been of pure-Valyrian descent. We don't yet know if Aerion was his father, but he would have been half-Valyrian either way.

[Don Roberto]

The line about Orys Baratheon being black of hair is solely from the TV series. The books do not include such a line.

That is indeed true, I stand corrected. Is this the root of all the talk about him having black hair?

[Lord Varys]

People tend to associate Baratheon traits, looks, and passions with Orys Baratheon ue to him being the legal founder of that house. But it is indeed possible that all the so-called 'Baratheon traits' (i.e. the black hair, the strength and the larger-than-life passions) do not come from Orys Baratheon but from Durran and his line.

I'd be very surprised if Orys and not Argella had the raven-black hair. And considering that Orys apparently was Aegon's one close friend my guess is that he did not resemble Robert or Renly Baratheon (or the Laughing Storm). Aegon seems to have been a rather Rhaegaresque kind of Targaryen, and I think his close friend(s) would share most of these characteristics.

[The BlackBear]

I'd be very surprised if Orys and not Argella had the raven-black hair. And considering that Orys apparently was Aegon's one close friend my guess is that he did not resemble Robert or Renly Baratheon (or the Laughing Storm). Aegon seems to have been a rather Rhaegaresque kind of Targaryen, and I think his close friend(s) would share most of these characteristics.

You heard it here first Aegon and Rhaegar were Aryan supremacists. :lol:

I agree it's more likely a Targ bastard would look Valyrian, and that the strong traits come from the Storm gods daughter.

Aegon didn't have close friends, he was described as an enigma, very few people really knew him, Orys seems to be the exception. As to why his friends have to look like him I'm a bit confused. Rhaegar was close friends with JonCon who was a swarthy red head.

[Makes No Sansa]

Yes, yes, I just want to know if the black hair trait associated to the Baratheons comes from their founder, Orys, or from his offspring with the Storm Princess Argella. I think it was Argella who had black hair and Orys looked Valyrian. I wanted to know your opinion and I'd like to get an answer to this in the World Book. I would also like to know how Orys chose the name "Baratheon", if as someone said he was the political son of Lord Baratheon and the biological son of Aerion Targaryen or if he chose the name himself/ was given the name.