Orys Baratheon

[Lord Varys]

Ran said that Lord Lyonel Strong - if he still exists - no longer is Rhaenyra's first consort. But she still has two consorts, and a bunch of sons from whoever has replaced Lord Lyonel.

But the Strongs still play a major role during the Dance. And I'm quite sure they won't be there afterwards.

The Lothstons being an offshoot of House Targaryen sounds interesting. But if they turn out to be a cadet branch, they should be descended from one of Jaehaerys' I siblings, or Viserys' I uncles/aunts. They cannot be closely related to Rhaenyra and her two sons, or else the Lothstons would have been absorbed back into the main branch after the end of the Dance. As things are now, Aegon III, his first queen (Aegon's II sole surviving child), and Viserys II were the last surviving members of House Targaryen.

And I also think that close cadet branches of House Targaryen (i.e. those who still bore the name 'Targaryen' and continued the practice of incestuous marriages - and such branches must have been there during the reigns of Jaehaerys I, Viserys I, and during the Dance) would have had their own dragons. If the Lothstons once had their own dragons, one would suspect that they would have had a dragon in their banner.

But it's easily possible that a Lothston once married a Targaryen princess. But not the first Lord Lothston of Harrenhal, rather a Lothston during the time of Jaehaerys I or Viserys I.

[protar]

Ran said that Lord Lyonel Strong - if he still exists - no longer is Rhaenyra's first consort. But she still has two consorts, and a bunch of sons from whoever has replaced Lord Lyonel.

But the Strongs still play a major role during the Dance. And I'm quite sure they won't be there afterwards.

The Lothstons being an offshoot of House Targaryen sounds interesting. But if they turn out to be a cadet branch, they should be descended from one of Jaehaerys' I siblings, or Viserys' I uncles/aunts. They cannot be closely related to Rhaenyra and her two sons, or else the Lothstons would have been absorbed back into the main branch after the end of the Dance. As things are now, Aegon III, his first queen (Aegon's II sole surviving child), and Viserys II were the last surviving members of House Targaryen.

And I also think that close cadet branches of House Targaryen (i.e. those who still bore the name 'Targaryen' and continued the practice of incestuous marriages - and such branches must have been there during the reigns of Jaehaerys I, Viserys I, and during the Dance) would have had their own dragons. If the Lothstons once had their own dragons, one would suspect that they would have had a dragon in their banner.

But it's easily possible that a Lothston once married a Targaryen princess. But not the first Lord Lothston of Harrenhal, rather a Lothston during the time of Jaehaerys I or Viserys I.

I agree that any Lothston/Targaryen connection would be quite distant, but enough for the Lothstons to be uppity and to be afflicted by the Targ madness.

ETA: As for where they'd branch off, isn't there an entire missing generation of Targs between Jaeherys and Viserys?

[History of Westeros]

The thing with the Riverlords is that as of yet they seem to the ones which change on a much more regular basis then the Lords of the other regions. The only other kingdom similar in that fashion to the Riverlands seems to the Reach (where at least the Manderlys, Osgreys, and Florents fell from grace during the centuries).

But the Riverlands has had a family like the Butterwells who rose from nothing to the peak of the Realm only to disappear once again. And since the Riverlands were ruled by outsiders for centuries - first the Stormkings, then the Ironborn - I'm quite sure that at least some of the prominent Riverlords from various ages don't have their roots in the Riverlands but on the Iron Islands and the Stormlands (just as the Lords on the Western Shore of the West and the Reach could be related to the Ironborn).

Excellent stuff. House Kenning of Kayce(Westerlands) and House Kenning of Harlaw(Iron Islands) is our best example I think.

I'd not be surprised at all if the Freys were originally not from the Riverlands as well.

I made this same guess in my podcast. The Freys were raised about ~minus 300 AL and that's very close to same date the Storm Kings conquered the Riverlands. It could easily be that House Frey was raised for service during that conquest. (I think this is another date that the RPG screws up, btw. maybe not, like I said it's a bad source so I forget which errors it contains)

The three houses in the Riverlands which have been there for centuries seem to be the Brackens, the Blackwoods, and the Mallisters. The Tullys may be as old as the Mallisters, but they apparently were not that wealthy before Aegon raised them up.

I'd be surprised if the Darrys, Mootons, Pipers, and others would be as old as the Bracken/Blackwoods.

Tully/Riverrun has never been particularly powerful, that does seem to be true. Riverrun itself isn't terribly strong or wealthy, but when the Conqueror and his descendants designate back you as Lord Paramount... well that's hard to change. Looking at the history of the Riverlands, Tully's 300 year stint at the top doesn't look terribly impressive.

The Darrys were founded by Andals, so yeah no chance they are old as the houses founded by First Men. Mooton I agree is probably not super old, because Florian/Jonquil is probably an Andal legend (it reeks of chivalry etc), and Maidenpool derives its name from that legend.

What notions do we have to assume the Mallisters are ancient? I'm not doubting it, certainly they are as proud as it gets, just unaware.

[History of Westeros]

I'm not sure where the conundrum is. Lady Whent was a Whent by birth, not by marriage, that much seems to be the case. As a born Whent she would have come very late/last in the line of succession. Oswell Whent's brother - the Lord Whent who hosted the Tourney of Harrenhal - could have been her brother, too. It has never been said that Lady Whent's husband was a born Whent as well, has it?

Sigh, yes I've already pointed more than once that Lord Whent was a born Whent, because his brother is Oswell. That's the whole point. :)

Oswell has to be born Whent, so clearly the same goes for his brother.

As an aside, one possibility is that Oswell joined the KG when his father received Harrenhal, so as not to be a threat to his older brother/heir to Harrenhal (who already had a kid or two, or another young brother) and to thank the King who granted them the seat.

I have surmised cadet branch as well, but a cadet branch remarrying back into the main branch relatively quickly is a bit odd. Not impossible, but very unusual.

Hence the conundrum. Gendry and Barristan can both be right only under the cadet branch model, as I see it.

[History of Westeros]

Lothston being a Targ offshoot is very interesting.

Another reason it would fit very well, consider this: post-Dance it would seem that folks would "tighten up" with regards to who can claim the throne. Not only did they clarify the inheritance laws with regards to women, but while they were fixing that law it would be sensible to fix the law in other ways as to prevent future civil wars.

So it fits beautifully that they would want to encourage/enforce some sort of "if you're a Targ outside the royal family and you acquire land, you *must* take a new house name". So as a condition of taking Harrenhal for the first Lord Lothston was that he take on a new name.

Or, more simply, perhaps Lothston had Targ blood on the female side. The first Lord Lothston could've married a Targ.

It also might explain why Lothston lasted the longest of any other house, they had more backing than most, and more powerful relatives.

This can also give motive to Lothston rebelling against King Maekar. Perhaps they were claiming the throne itself with their distant blood connection, and other than Maelys much later, it appeared the Blackfyres were done.

[Lord Varys]

On the Lothstons:

I'm not sure about their madness. Mad Danelle Lothston, who appears in TMK, didn't seem mad to me. I'd not be surprised if all the talk about her being mad, being a sorceress who bathes in the blood of maidens and stuff were just rumors spread to discredit her lifestyle as warrior lady. I'm also dubious about Shiera Seastar bathing in the blood of maidens. I can't see Daeron II allowing such a practice at his court, and Egg would have caught this rumor while his grandfather was still alive (he did not visit the Red Keep since TMK). But I'd not surprised if Bloodraven and Shiera practiced sorcery.

We don't yet know enough about the Tullys to deduce whether the Lysa's and Catelyn's instability may turn out to be a genuine Tully trait.

If the Lothstons are an offshoot of the Targaryens my guess is that a younger princess - either of of the main branch or a side branch - married a Lothston. And their descendants were given Harrenhal after the Dance. We do indeed know nothing about Jaehaerys and Alysanne's children, and considering the fact that seemed to have been a happy couple, I'd be surprised if they had only few children. Whatever sons and daughters Jaehaerys and Alysanne had besides the father/parents of Viserys I we don't yet know. But if they had any, they would have had time enough to conceive children and grandchildren of their own until the Dance broke out. We already know that one of Viserys I two queens had Targaryen blood of their own (which means that either the Hightower or the Arryn queen had a Targaryen mother, most likely one of his aunts).

And we also still don't know anything about Aegon's children by his two sisters. It's not unlikely that Maegor was Aegon's only son by Visenya, but I'd be very surprised if Aenys would turn out to be Aegon's only child by Rhaenys. There have to be at least a few daughters and perhaps even a bunch of younger sons whose descendants could very well be around until the Dance.

As to the practice of male Targaryen cadet branches being not allowed to carry on the Targaryen name: This seems not to be the case. Maekar Targaryen started such a cadet branch during his time, and he ruled his lands from Summerhall as Maekar Targaryen, Prince of Summerhall. The fact that his branch would eventually became the main branch was not evident during his father's and Aerys' I rule.

But it is easily possible that the Lothstons were founded by a Lord Lothston who married a Targaryen princess.

If Maekar died fighting a rebelling Lord Lothston this whole thing could turn out to be another Targaryen family tragedy. Perhaps the last Lord Lothston - most likely Mad Danelle's eldest son - married one of Egg's little sisters. The fact that Egg married for love seems to indicate that he did not marry either Rhae or Daella Targaryen, and during the reign of Aerys I they could have been easily married off into House Lothston. If one of Maekar's grandsons or his son-in-law slew the King in battle, this would actually explain why the Lothstons are cursed that much.

On the age of the Mallisters:

Seagard was supposedly built to keep off the Ironborn. My guess is that this is not so much relatively new tradition but goes at least back until the very beginning of Andal time. Perhaps even into the First Men era. The Ironborn have there until the very beginning, it seems.

On the Whents:

I thought I'd made this clear. Lord Whent (Oswell's brother) could have been Shella's brother as well as Oswell's. Or her father. Shella would only have gotten Harrenhal after most, if not all, the male Whents had died. It's nowhere stated that Shella Whent was widow to a Lord Whent, is it? That would confuse things, but as things seem to be Shella was Lady of Harrenhal in her own right just as Ladies Oakheart, Waynwood, and so on. The line of succession would only give Harrenhal to her after her father, elder brothers and their children were dead.

[History of Westeros]

I tend to think that house Harroway was deliberately set up to rule Harrenhal, mainly because of the name. It seems weird to me that a house with the Harr prefix would just happen to exist prior to ruling Harrenhal. Although a house connected with Harren would also cut it I suppose.

My theory is that after a couple houses died holding Harrenhal in quick sucession people started to get suspicious and tried giving it to a house specifically raised up to take the blow.

Hadn't considered the name similarity. That might have some meaning.

[History of Westeros]

On the Lothstons:

I'm not sure about their madness. Mad Danelle Lothston, who appears in TMK, don't seemed mad to me. I'd not be surprised if all the talk about her being mad, being a sorceress who bathes in the blood of maidens and stuff were just rumors spread to discredit her lifestyle as warrior lady. I'm also dubious about Shiera Seastar bathing in the blood of maidens. I can't see Daeron II allowing such a practice at his court, and Egg would have caught this rumor while his grandfather was still alive (he did not visit the Red Keep since TMK). But I'd not surprised if Bloodraven and Shiera practiced sorcery.

I agree. I doubt Mad Danelle was actually insane or a cannibal, or that she bathed in blood. However, Lord Lucas the Pander (which means "pimp", basically) pre-dates Danelle and Maekar's death, and it sounds like he was a real piece of work, and so was his son Manfryd of the Black Hood, apparently. We know he switched sides prior to the Redgrass field, but "of the Black Hood" sounds sinister and quite possibility un-related to betraying a traitor. So the Lothston "curse" appears have more teeth than the rumors of Mad Danelle and possible kinslaying curse.

I totally agree that Whent is probably a cadet branch of Lothston. I made that point on my podcast as well. Even the background color matches half of the Lothston sigil.

As to the practice of male Targaryen cadet branches being not allowed to carry on the Targaryen name: This seems not to be the case. Maekar Targaryen started such a cadet branch during his time, and he ruled his lands from Summerhall as Maekar Targaryen, Prince of Summerhall. The fact that his branch would eventually became the main branch was not evident during his father's and Aerys' I rule.

But it is easily possible that the Lothstons were founded by a Lord Lothston who married a Targaryen princess.

I suppose that technically counts as a cadet branch, but Summerhall could never be a threat to anyone militarily, which is the real point: not to set up any non-Royal Targs with the ability to be a threat. I shouldn't have said "no land at all" as clearly there are non-threatening lands to be held. Good point though, I had never thought of Maekar's line as a cadet branch but clearly that's the case.

If Maekar died fighting a rebelling Lord Lothston this whole thing could turn out to be another Targaryen family tragedy. Perhaps the last Lord Lothston - most likely Mad Danelle's eldest son - married one of Egg's little sisters. The fact that Egg married for love seems to indicate that he did not marry either Rhae or Daella Targaryen, and during the reign of Aerys I they could have been easily married off into House Lothston. If one of Maekar's grandsons or his son-in-law slew the King in battle, this would actually explain why the Lothstons are cursed that much.

I like this model a lot. Fits very well, except there seems to be more to the curse as I explained above.

Also in reference to the curse, the only person who brought up kinslaying when Robb slew Rickard Karstark was Karstark himself. So I'm not sure we can apply that line of thinking to the curse here, but I think it is a reasonable possibility.

On the Whents:

I thought I'd made this clear. Lord Whent (Oswell's brother) could have been Shella's brother as well as Oswell's. Or her father. Shella would only have gotten Harrenhal after most, if not all, the male Whents had died. It's nowhere stated that Shella Whent was widow to a Lord Whent, is it? That would confuse things, but as things seem to be Shella was Lady of Harrenhal in her own right just as Ladies Oakheart, Waynwood, and so on. The line of succession would only give Harrenhal to her after her father, elder brothers and their children were dead.

You did make that clear, but you've only partially solved the conundrum (and to be honest, I had already solved that part myself) so I keep trying to get you to understand the problem as I see it. :) I'm not sure I've done the best job, it's tricky.

if Shella Whent is the sister to Lord Whent/Oswell Whent, Gendry's quote doesn't fit if we accept Barristan's. Remember he says her father and his father and the last Lord Lothston had BB as their smith. So no mention of the famous Lord Whent who held the tourney? More importantly, there's no room for an old lady like Shella to have a father and grandfather AND brother AND one other lord (a Lord Whent fought in a tourney ~290, and Barristan calls the Lord Whent who held the Tourney at Harrenhal "old".

Every answer you've given (as well as all the answers I gave before I brought this to the forums) makes Gendry wrong or creates another problem. It's the same problem I've run into, which is why I keep talking about it. This is why I have reached the conclusion that Gendry misspoke. It's the cleanest solution.

Let me re-state what we know:

We don't know who Shella Whent actually is, we only know she died old, was a Whent by birth, and has been a friend to the Watch for long enough for Yoren to have taken note. At the outbreak of the War of Five Kings, Shella had been Lady of Harrenhal for a maximum of 8 years because there was a Lord Whent alive in 290.

Barristan says the Lord Whent who held the tourney at Harrenhal was "old" and Oswell Whent's brother, making him a Whent by birth as well. We know he had 4 sons and a daughter. Most likely one of these sons inherited, accounting for a Lord Whent having competed in the tourney at Lannisport after Balon's Rebellion 9-10 years later.

Gendry says Ben Blackthumb worked as a child in the smithy "for Lady (Shella) Whent, her father, his father and the last Lord Lothston".

We can guess that the last Lord Lothston died or was not in possession of Harrenhal when Ben Blackthumb was a child. Going back too far before ~230 risks assuming that BB is unrealistically old. I prefer to keep him 75 or younger, and working as an apprentice no earlier than age 6.

Because we can't go back much farther than 230, *even if the first Lord Whent was an old man when he ascended to Lord of Harrenhal* it becomes very difficult if not impossible to make the timeline fit. An old lady dying in 299/300 cannot have had a cousin/son?, brother, father *and* grandfather all rule Harrenhal before her unless many of them died young, and we know for certain that at least one or two of them did not die young (mainly, the Lord Whent who was "old" in 281).

So we are left to explore the possibility of cadet branches or characters misspeaking (or *gasp* author error!... nah, actually there's probably a way to explain it. Though at least one other character is definitely wrong when Shella is referred to as the last of her line: there is a childless younger Whent married to Danwell Frey).

[Lady Nastja]

I think when he was legitimised he did what Daemon did and chose a name other than Targaryen. Baratheon might be a name from Valyria that was destroyed or maybe a minor house that came with Aerion and he chose his mother's family name instead, Baratheon.

:agree:

[The hairy bear]

History of Westeros,

Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but I still don't see why Gendry can't be right.

Let's say that Lord "Falspringtourney" Whent is the brother of Oswell Whent. He has four sons and a daughter. All of them die during the Rebellion save of a single son, who later competes at the Pyke Tourney. And he would be the father of Shella.

So Shella would be the daughter of Lord "Piketourney" Whent, and granddaughter of Lord "Falspringtourney" Whent.

Am I missing something? I understant that in order to have an elder Lady Shella by 300 AL, she should be already around during the years of the False Spring. But that's fine, since Lord "falspringtourney" Whent was old too, so he could have a granddaughter at that time.

[Lord Varys]

On the Whent thing:

I'd be surprised if Genry got all the details of the Whent line of succession. He may have easily deduced from Ben Blackthumb's ramblings that one of the Lords Whent he mentioned was Lady Whent's father.

And I'm also not sure if Ben Blackthumb would talk about various Lords Whents of the the same generation. If Shella was one of Oswell's siblings, and if one of her elder brothers once also was Lord Whent for a time, this would only confuse things if Ben Blackthumb was trying to make that he served at Harrenhal for various generations.

I'm also not sure if Barristan's wording 'Old Lord Whent' actually indicates that said Lord Whent - Oswell's brother - had to be an old man. It ay merely indicate that he referred to a former Lord Whent. Especially if Shella only inherited Harrenhal during Robert's reign, rather than during/after the Rebellion. Old Lord Whent and his male heirs may have died both during the fighting and of natural causes. It's not unlikely that another Lord Whent died during the Greyjoy Rebellion or of some sickness.

As to Maekar's status as Prince of Summerhall:

It really appears as if he wields considerable power and influence as Prince of Summerhall. He has money, men, lands, and perhaps the title of an overlord. GRRM at least said that Daeron gave Summerhall to Maekar. It is not impossible that he did not just grand him some lands. The smallfolk/people seem to believe that Prince Maekar will be able to seize the Iron Throne upon the death of his childless brother Aerys I. Despite the fact that Rhaegel and his sons would have better claims and the fact that Bloodraven rules the Realm.

[History of Westeros]

History of Westeros,

Perhaps I'm being obtuse, but I still don't see why Gendry can't be right.

Let's say that Lord "Falspringtourney" Whent is the brother of Oswell Whent. He has four sons and a daughter. All of them die during the Rebellion save of a single son, who later competes at the Pyke Tourney. And he would be the father of Shella.

So Shella would be the daughter of Lord "Piketourney" Whent, and granddaughter of Lord "Falspringtourney" Whent.

Am I missing something? I understant that in order to have an elder Lady Shella by 300 AL, she should be already around during the years of the False Spring. But that's fine, since Lord "falspringtourney" Whent was old too, so he could have a granddaughter at that time.

Several problems with this, unfortunately.

First, I believe the "False Spring daughter" is Sarya Whent, wife of Ser Danwell Frey. Sarya could be the daughter of one of those sons, however.

Second, this daughter was the Queen of Love and Beauty at the tourney, so it's a stretch to go from unmarried teenage girl to "old" in less than 20 years.

Third, a guy who has a daughter who is "old" in 298 probably didn't compete in a tourney 8 years prior. He'd have to have been pretty old himself in 290.

[History of Westeros]

On the Whent thing:

I'd be surprised if Genry got all the details of the Whent line of succession. He may have easily deduced from Ben Blackthumb's ramblings that one of the Lords Whent he mentioned was Lady Whent's father.

And I'm also not sure if Ben Blackthumb would talk about various Lords Whents of the the same generation. If Shella was one of Oswell's siblings, and if one of her elder brothers once also was Lord Whent for a time, this would only confuse things if Ben Blackthumb was trying to make that he served at Harrenhal for various generations.

Exactly my conclusion. Of all the people giving us info on the Whents, Gendry is one of the least reliable, both due to his source, his own age, and imo him being wrong fits better than other scenarios we've come up with so I feel strongly that it's the best guess.

I'm also not sure if Barristan's wording 'Old Lord Whent' actually indicates that said Lord Whent - Oswell's brother - had to be an old man. It ay merely indicate that he referred to a former Lord Whent. Especially if Shella only inherited Harrenhal during Robert's reign, rather than during/after the Rebellion. Old Lord Whent and his male heirs may have died both during the fighting and of natural causes. It's not unlikely that another Lord Whent died during the Greyjoy Rebellion or of some sickness.

That's possible, though personally I assume actual old people (like Barristan, who happened to be GRRM's exact age at the date of aDwD's publication... and not nearly the only reference to his own age in that book) use the term old more literally, but maybe that's just me.

The fact that he didn't compete in the tourney *maybe* argues he was old as well, but I can't think of any examples of Lords competing in their own tourneys, so that might be a non-point.

As to Maekar's status as Prince of Summerhall:

It really appears as if he wields considerable power and influence as Prince of Summerhall. He has money, men, lands, and perhaps the title of an overlord. GRRM at least said that Daeron gave Summerhall to Maekar. It is not impossible that he did not just grand him some lands. The smallfolk/people seem to believe that Prince Maekar will be able to seize the Iron Throne upon the death of his childless brother Aerys I. Despite the fact that Rhaegel and his sons would have better claims and the fact that Bloodraven rules the Realm.

Good points, especially the part about what the smallfolk believe is possible, though obviously they can be wildly wrong at times. I'm going to keep this in mind on my next D&E re-read. There are probably more clues to be inferred beyond this... there always are, it seems!

[The hairy bear]

Several problems with this, unfortunately.

(...)

Third, a guy who has a daughter who is "old" in 298 probably didn't compete in a tourney 8 years prior. He'd have to have been pretty old himself in 290.

I don't get your first two problems. The identity of the "Falspring Daughter" doesn't have much to do with my proposal. The third does, though. But I still think it can work:

The year of the False Spring could be 281. Back then, we could have a 70 years old Lord Whent, a 47 years old heir, and a 31 year old granddaughter (Shella).

That would make Shella 50 at 300 when she dies. I think it's enough to have people call her old, specially if she is sickly and spends her days "dwelling with her ghosts in the cavernous vaults of Harrenhal".

The biggest problem, as you say, is that Shella's father would be 55 at 289 during Balon's Rebellion. It may seem too old for fighting a touney. But we know that Ser Arlen of Pennytree was going to participate at the Ashford Tourney when he was "closer to sixty than to fifty". And we are also told that Barristan Selmy won a tourney at 57 (Barristan is a wonder, but Lord Whent would be eliminated at an early round). So there's precedent, and it could be justified with it being a tourney to commemorate a victory, and the need of Lord Whent to participate in such acts to reconciliate his family with the new Baratheon rule.

In short, I don't think it's imperative to assume either Barristan or Gendry were wrong.

[History of Westeros]

I don't get your first two problems. The identity of the "Falspring Daughter" doesn't have much to do with my proposal. The third does, though. But I still think it can work:

The year of the False Spring could be 281. Back then, we could have a 70 years old Lord Whent, a 47 years old heir, and a 31 year old granddaughter (Shella).

Right, I misunderstood your proposal, my fault.

Hmmm, you might have solved it, though it is sensible to review all the details. Need to think about it more to be sure, the thing is fairly convoluted, I think we've shown.

"The daughter of the castle was the queen of love and beauty". Daughter, not granddaughter. So that would mean 70 yr old Lord Whent had remarried. We'll have to ignore the fact that she'd be defended by half-brothers and not full brothers. I think we can accept that people say "brother" when "half-brother" is more accurate.

That would make Shella 50 at 300 when she dies. I think it's enough to have people call her old, specially if she is sickly and spends her days "dwelling with her ghosts in the cavernous vaults of Harrenhal".

The biggest problem, as you say, is that Shella's father would be 55 at 289 during Balon's Rebellion. It may seem too old for fighting a touney. But we know that Ser Arlen of Pennytree was going to participate at the Ashford Tourney when he was "closer to sixty than to fifty". And we are also told that Barristan Selmy won a tourney at 57 (Barristan is a wonder, but Lord Whent would be eliminated at an early round). So there's precedent, and it could be justified with it being a tourney to commemorate a victory, and the need of Lord Whent to participate in such acts to reconciliate his family with the new Baratheon rule.

Well, other than Oswell, Harrenhal and the Whents must've supported Robert. We hear that several Riverlands houses fought for the Targs, but we hear their names, and none of the names mentioned are remotely close to Harrenhal's power or stature. It would be extremely strange to leave Harrenhal off that list. But that is all largely beside the point. Lord Whent doesn't have to have fought for Aerys to have competed in the tourney as a man on the older side.

But also we don't have to assume the 47 yo heir is the one who competed in the 290 tourney. The 47 yo could be the father of Shella, while his younger brother inherited. So actually we don't even have to assume PykeTourneyWhent was terribly old. Could've been in his 40's, maybe even younger if the Queen of Love and Beauty daughter had full brothers in addition to half brothers. Perhaps one of the full brothers inherited.

Nice job, I think we got there.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

I dont think he was legitimized. It is only rumoured that Orys was Aegons bastard brother, if he wa legitimized it shouldnt be a rumour.

It was my understanding that the "rumor" part was about their being brothers, not about Orys being a bastard. Argilac was insulted by the offer to marry his daughter to Orys, after all.

I don't think it's been explicitly said yet that Aegon legimitized Orys, but given that legitimizing bastards is a power of kings, that Orys was Aegon's best friend and only real confidant, and that he founded a Great House and was Lord Paramount of one of the Seven Kingdoms, I'm quite certain that he did. Unless it wasn't necessary because Orys was indeed officially the son of a Lord Baratheon whose wife had an affair with Aerion Targaryen. But I find it less likely that Orys would adopt the Durrendon words and colors in that case.

[The Heart of Ice and Fire]

Sorry but where does it say who the black hair came from? I agree it's more likely to come from Storm Kings who were 'repudedly' descended from the Storm Gods daughter, but does it actually say anywhere that's where the strong traits are from?