Orys Baratheon

[Makes No Sansa]

Is Orys Baratheon a similar case to Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella in the sense that he's the alleged son of a cuckold named Baratheon and his actual father is someone else (Aerion Targaryen)?

Or was he recognised by Aerion Targaryen as his bastard son and was given the name Baratheon for some reason?

Will we get an explanation? I would really like to read about Orys Baratheon, what he looked like and his origins. Was he black of hair or that's a trait which comes from the Durrendons?

Thanks.

[joluoto]

The black hair traits come from the Durrendons. We don't know what Orys looked like. Most likely he had Valyrian traits, considering Dragonstone was a Valyrian colony.

I think Orys was a legitimized bastard of Aerion Targaryen, although we don't know for sure.

[Maiden of Karhold]

Where did you read about his black hair traits? Dunk and Egg tales?

I think he was a legitimized bastard or he just made his own house like Blackfyre. Both explanations are possible.

[Old Man Aegon]

I dont think he was legitimized. It is only rumoured that Orys was Aegons bastard brother, if he wa legitimized it shouldnt be a rumour. I think Baratheon might have been a name he choose for himself, maybe when Aegon let him command his army (Vanguard was it?)

[TWR]

Orys is one of my favorite unknown characters. I hope we get at least a little more info on him & some more background on House Baratheon.

[King of Winters]

I dont think he was legitimized. It is only rumoured that Orys was Aegons bastard brother, if he wa legitimized it shouldnt be a rumour. I think Baratheon might have been a name he choose for himself, maybe when Aegon let him command his army (Vanguard was it?)

I think when he was legitimised he did what Daemon did and chose a name other than Targaryen. Baratheon might be a name from Valyria that was destroyed or maybe a minor house that came with Aerion and he chose his mother's family name instead, Baratheon.

[LordBloodraven]

I think when he was legitimised he did what Daemon did and chose a name other than Targaryen. Baratheon might be a name from Valyria that was destroyed or maybe a minor house that came with Aerion and he chose his mother's family name instead, Baratheon.

He was never legitimized. He may have made up his name or could have been the legal son of Mr and Mrs Baratheon, with Mrs Baratheon being in a relationship with Aerion Targaryen

[King of Winters]

He was never legitimized. He may have made up his name or could have been the legal son of Mr and Mrs Baratheon, with Mrs Baratheon being in a relationship with Aerion Targaryen

He could have had been a bastard of Aerion and a Baratheon Lady and he used his mothers name instead of Targaryen because he was bastard.

[Toccs]

Maybe Baratheon is a name of one of the Valyrian gods, simialr to Balerion and Orys took it for his name since he could never be a Targaryen.

[Free Northman]

Wait a second. I totally forgot that Orys married the Storm King's daughter. This changes entirely the Baratheon's stature in my eyes. No longer are they mere upjumped nobodies going back a mere 300 years. Instead, they are descended from the ancient line of the Storm Kings going back thousands of years. Albeit through the female line.

This is much better for the setting of the story, as I was getting tired of all the relative nobodies who suddenly replaced ancient royal lineages after Aegon's conquest. And here I mean the Tyrells and Tullys specifically.

At least the Baratheons can sort of be removed from that list, given that the Storm King's line was continued through them.

[joluoto]

Wait a second. I totally forgot that Orys married the Storm King's daughter. This changes entirely the Baratheon's stature in my eyes. No longer are they mere upjumped nobodies going back a mere 300 years. Instead, they are descended from the ancient line of the Storm Kings going back thousands of years. Albeit through the female line.

This is much better for the setting of the story, as I was getting tired of all the relative nobodies who suddenly replaced ancient royal lineages after Aegon's conquest. And here I mean the Tyrells and Tullys specifically.

At least the Baratheons can sort of be removed from that list, given that the Storm King's line was continued through them.

Well, the Tullys were an old House in the Riverlands. The Riverlands had not been united for ages, despite when dominated by foreigners, as the Ironborn or the Stormlanders. So elevating a strong House like the Tullys made sense.

[Free Northman]

Well, the Tullys were an old House in the Riverlands. The Riverlands had not been united for ages, despite when dominated by foreigners, as the Ironborn or the Stormlanders. So elevating a strong House like the Tullys made sense.

My understanding is that the Tullys were no stronger than say the Blackwoods, Brackens, Mallisters, Pipers etc. amongst the Riverlords. It would be like raising any one of the Karstarks, Umbers, Hornwoods, Ryswells or Dustins as rulers of the North. Nothing seperates one from the others by any great margin.

[joluoto]

My understanding is that the Tullys were no stronger than say the Blackwoods, Brackens, Mallisters, Pipers etc. amongst the Riverlords. It would be like raising any one of the Karstarks, Umbers, Hornwoods, Ryswells or Dustins as rulers of the North. Nothing seperates one from the others by any great margin.

The Tullys were as good as any of them. Someone had to get the Riverlands. There was no one that really had a claim on the whole area, except the Hoares and the Durrendons, both dead Houses, that had ruled the Riverlands as foreign conquerors.

[Winterz]

My understanding is that the Tullys were no stronger than say the Blackwoods, Brackens, Mallisters, Pipers etc. amongst the Riverlords. It would be like raising any one of the Karstarks, Umbers, Hornwoods, Ryswells or Dustins as rulers of the North. Nothing seperates one from the others by any great margin.

Even so, I believe it is stated that the Tullys were one of the strongest houses that allied right away with the Targs, helping them in their campaign. And besides, they never needed to be the strongest house in the region...lets not forget the Tyrells ascension to power.

[NorthRemembers]

My understanding was that he was not "legitimate" but that is was no big secret either, otherwise he would not have been given command of the army, unless he was just that good.

The Tullys were as good as any of them. Someone had to get the Riverlands. There was no one that really had a claim on the whole area, except the Hoares and the Durrendons, both dead Houses, that had ruled the Riverlands as foreign conquerors.

Again, going with impressions, but the Tully's were one of the more powerful, if not most powerful, of the riverlords. Not the least of this impression comes from River Run itself. It takes large funds to man, maintain, and control the lands and a castle like that. Not only for the Riverlands, but River Run is considered one of the hardest keeps in westeros to capture.

[Free Northman]

My understanding was that he was not "legitimate" but that is was no big secret either, otherwise he would not have been given command of the army, unless he was just that good.

Again, going with impressions, but the Tully's were one of the more powerful, if not most powerful, of the riverlords. Not the least of this impression comes from River Run itself. It takes large funds to man, maintain, and control the lands and a castle like that. Not only for the Riverlands, but River Run is considered one of the hardest keeps in westeros to capture.

Unlike the Blackwoods or Brackens, though, I do not recall any reference to them being Kings in ancient times. I could be wrong though.

[NorthRemembers]

Unlike the Blackwoods or Brackens, though, I do not recall any reference to them being Kings in ancient times. I could be wrong though.

True, but they were petty kings IIRC. Meaning I doubt they had much more power than they had at the time of a conquest. Kings because they swore no fealty, not because many lands swore fealty to them. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that the borders of their lordships are similar to the borders of their kingdoms.

I think it is safe to assume that they were no House Mudd.

[The BlackBear]

The black hair traits come from the Durrendons. We don't know what Orys looked like. Most likely he had Valyrian traits, considering Dragonstone was a Valyrian colony.

I think Orys was a legitimized bastard of Aerion Targaryen, although we don't know for sure.

Sorry but where does it say who the black hair came from? I agree it's more likely to come from Storm Kings who were 'repudedly' descended from the Storm Gods daughter, but does it actually say anywhere that's where the strong traits are from?

[Lord Varys]

Aerion Targaryen the Elder - Aegon's father - seemed to have been dead when his children decided to invade Westeros. This could indicate that he either a) never acknowledged Orys as his son, or B) he was not his father - it is still possible that Velena Velaryon was Orys' mother. At least as far as I know it has not been confirmed that Aerion was (supposed to be) Orys' father.

Until we learned who Aegon's parents were it was possible that 'Baratheon' was the name of Orys' mother/father (he could have gone by his father's name if his mother had been a Targaryen - Aegon's parents could have been an incest couple, after all). Now we know that she was a Velaryon, so it makes little that he would not go by that name if he was her son. Speaking about this, I doubt that the Valyrians had the same custom about bastardy as the Westerosi. Meaning that 'Baratheon' is most likely some sort of given name or indeed the family name of Orys' unknown mother (if Aerion was his father).

The fact that Orys continued the line of the Storm Kings started by Durran is nothing new. Orys' Valyrian features - if he had any - could never compete with the black-haired, so-called Baratheon gene which is actually a trait of House Durrendon.

The Worldbook apparently is going to explain why the Tullys - who indeed were only a minor house in the Riverlands, not as wealthy or nobly as the Brackens or Blackwoods who once had been kings, ended up becoming Lords of the Riverlands.

The last royal house in the Riverlands were the Mudds, but it has not yet been confirmed whether the Brackens and the Blackwoods ever ruled over all that is now been called Riverlands, or if they only rule over a portion of those lands. But the same is true with the Mudds and all the other pre-Conquest kingdoms.

[Don Roberto]

Unlike the Blackwoods or Brackens, though, I do not recall any reference to them being Kings in ancient times. I could be wrong though.

I don't know about being kings, but Elio mentions in another thread that the Tullys were a very minor house in past time, and something happened that made them powerful by Aegon's Conquest that they were chosen as the new river rulers. And that something we'll learn in the World of Ice and Fire.

As for upjumped houses, none strikes me harder than house Whent. Seventh house to hold Harrenhal after AL, couldn't have held the castle for more than 200 years, probably not even close to that much. No one talks about the ancient hold of the Whents, if they even had one at all, and in a matter of a century or two they went from nobodies to lords of the biggest castle in Westeros, to putting a member of the family in the Kingsguard, to absolute ruin again.